(L) Mushoku Tensei: Isekai Ittara Honki Dasu (Jobless Reincarnation)

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

In this case he ignored the extreme reactions of his friends(and pack animal), the spoken warning to do nothing,

The thing is, none of this matters.
Everything will still be fine as long as the word Hitogami is not mentioned.

Originally Posted by Magewolf

and he blurted out a secret he had been keeping from everyone to a complete stranger.

You talk as if it's a deadly secret that must be protected at all cost.
No, there is nothing that forbids Rudy from telling other people about Hitogami. He didn't because there was no reason to do so.
Now he meets someone who also knows Hitogami, his reaction is completely natural.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

How can you compare "fighting an immediate/incoming life-threatening danger to your friend" with "asking for info from a passing stranger by ignoring my strong friend's super-negative reaction to him" as something equal?

On one side, Ichigo tried to stop danger from coming to his friend. On the other side, Rudy invited danger to his friends while ignoring his friends' horrified/petrified reaction. It's the complete opposite.

Both are being ignorant of the danger and unable to read the situation, which was what your previous gripe was.

And like TheForsaken said, literally nothing would've happened had Orsted not realized there was a Hitogami connection and Rudy reacted to it. Without that, calling out to him wouldn't have caused any damage beyond the Ox yeeting itself.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by GDB

Both are being ignorant of the danger and unable to read the situation, which was what your previous gripe was.

And like TheForsaken said, literally nothing would've happened had Orsted not realized there was a Hitogami connection and Rudy reacted to it. Without that, calling out to him wouldn't have caused any damage beyond the Ox yeeting itself.

What are you talking about? Ichigo knew that he was going into danger by challenging Renji & Byakuya for Rukia. He also paid attention to Rukia. He just didn't know the scale coz he never met Renji & Byakuya before. Knowing the danger/risk and facing it doesn't mean Ichigo is ignorant of it.

On the other hand, the entire dragon guy incident would've never happened if Rudy never made any interaction with him and just let him walk pass by. He didn't pay any attention to Eris & especially Ruijerd who were cowering in fear, just because......the plot needs him to.

[EroKing]

Originally Posted by GDB

And like TheForsaken said, literally nothing would've happened had Orsted not realized there was a Hitogami connection and Rudy reacted to it. Without that, calling out to him wouldn't have caused any damage beyond the Ox yeeting itself.

I couldn't stop myself from making this.

[maximilianjenus]

rudy keeping his mouth shut was not an option, he has yet to find his mother,.so asking this wise looking guy if he knows anything about the teleport incident is a sound idea.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

What are you talking about? Ichigo knew that he was going into danger by challenging Renji & Byakuya for Rukia. He also paid attention to Rukia. He just didn't know the scale coz he never met Renji & Byakuya before. Knowing the danger/risk and facing it doesn't mean Ichigo is ignorant of it.

On the other hand, the entire dragon guy incident would've never happened if Rudy never made any interaction with him and just let him walk pass by. He didn't pay any attention to Eris & especially Ruijerd who were cowering in fear, just because......the plot needs him to.

Way I remember it he wasn't THAT aware of the danger. Seemed to just see them as shinigame like himself. After all, he didn't even know about calling the sword or anything; he was shocked to be so thoroughly outclassed, and even more so when Byakuya was able to stab him without him even seeing him move. Until the fight started, he really didn't see them as that much of a bigger threat than the Hollows he'd faced. Not to mention that, like many Shounen protagonists, he wasn't exactly skilled at recognizing danger (remember, this's a guy who tried to take on a Menos single-handedly before he'd even learned to do his energy blast and would've been crushed if he hadn't pulled it out at the last moment).

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

rudy keeping his mouth shut was not an option, he has yet to find his mother,.so asking this wise looking guy if he knows anything about the teleport incident is a sound idea.

Her mother is a high-level adventurer. If anything, she has more chances of doing better than Lilia or even Rudy & Paul.

You'd think after all the red flags (Ruijerd being petrified with fear, telling Rudy not to move, the ox suddenly killing itself to run from the stranger) Rudy would get the idea that this guy is a major NOPE. But of course the plot needed him to be super-ignorant this time so that the event can happen.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Way I remember it he wasn't THAT aware of the danger. Seemed to just see them as shinigame like himself. After all, he didn't even know about calling the sword or anything; he was shocked to be so thoroughly outclassed, and even more so when Byakuya was able to stab him without him even seeing him move. Until the fight started, he really didn't see them as that much of a bigger threat than the Hollows he'd faced. Not to mention that, like many Shounen protagonists, he wasn't exactly skilled at recognizing danger (remember, this's a guy who tried to take on a Menos single-handedly before he'd even learned to do his energy blast and would've been crushed if he hadn't pulled it out at the last moment).

No.

Spoiler for Bleach Plot Point:

Ichigo already understood that those two are bigger threats when Renji's Zabimaru shikai cut deep into his shoulder. After that, Rukia was trying her best to hold onto Renji giving Ichigo time to flee. And even after that Ichigo practically fought the rest of it with will alone and growing his spiritual energy until Byakuya put a stop to him. Just like Rudy this episode, Ichigo would've died right there & then if not for Urahara coming & rescuing him.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Her mother is a high-level adventurer. If anything, she has more chances of doing better than Lilia or even Rudy & Paul.

You'd think after all the red flags (Ruijerd being petrified with fear, telling Rudy not to move, the ox suddenly killing itself to run from the stranger) Rudy would get the idea that this guy is a major NOPE. But of course the plot needed him to be super-ignorant thi time so that the event can happen.

No. Ichigo already understood that those two are bigger threats when Renji's Zabimaru shikai cut deep into his shoulder. After that, he practically fought with will alone and growing his spiritual energy until Byakuya put a stop to him. Just like Rudy this episode, Ichigo would've died right there & then if not for Urahara coming & rescuing him.

So, he knew it was a threat when the fight already started. Point being? Rudy also understood he was a threat when he started to attack them, but between fighting and dying (potentially along with his friends) he fought with everything he had too. I also recall Ichigo getting really cocky partway through the fight when his power started to surge, not a smart move.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

So, he knew it was a threat when the fight already started. Point being?

Renji was not the OP "big bad". Byakuya was. By knowing how tough Renji was, Ichigo knew that Byakuya would be much harder to deal with.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I also recall Ichigo getting really cocky partway through the fight when his power started to surge, not a smart move.

Getting cocky with Renji is not the same as getting cocky with Byakuya.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Rudy also understood he was a threat when he started to attack them, but between fighting and dying (potentially along with his friends) he fought with everything he had too.

Of course Rudy only realized how F-up he is when the OP Big Bad start to attack.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Renji was not the OP "big bad". Byakuya was. By knowing how tough Renji was, Ichigo knew that Byakuya would be much harder to deal with.

Getting cocky with Renji is not the same as getting cocky with Byakuya.

Of course Rudy only realized how F-up he is when the OP Big Bad start to attack.

He got cocky in general, and once the fight was on it couldn't be simply stopped, just like Rudy couldn't back out halfway through. You're trying to rationalize based on the fact that there were two guys there, and it doesn't really work. In both cases, they realized they were screwed WHEN they ended up in the fight and couldn't back out.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

He got cocky in general, and once the fight was on it couldn't be simply stopped, just like Rudy couldn't back out halfway through. You're trying to rationalize based on the fact that there were two guys there, and it doesn't really work. In both cases, they realized they were screwed WHEN they ended up in the fight and couldn't back out.

He got cocky fighting Renji. That's the fact in the episode.

During the fight, after Renji cut Ichigo, Rukia hold Renji back the best she can so that Ichigo could run. But he stayed. Knowing well that he will face Byakuya next. All because they are taking Rukia for judgement which then ended up being her execution. It was an immediate danger to his best friend where Ichigo had to act right then & there before they take Rukia away to a place that he thought he could never reach at the time .

In Rudy's case, he would've avoided grave danger to him & his friends if he just did nothing. He could get info about his mother elsewhere.

This is why the Bleach one works better for me. If you prefer this episode's event then more power to you. You don't see me prohibiting people from liking it, do you?

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

He got cocky fighting Renji. That's the fact in the episode.

During the fight, after Renji cut Ichigo, Rukia hold Renji back the best she can so that Ichigo could run. But he stayed. Knowing well that he will face Byakuya next. All because they are taking Rukia for judgement which then ended up being her execution. It was an immediate danger to his best friend where Ichigo had to act right then & there before they take Rukia away.

In Rudy's case, he would've avoided grave danger to him & his friends if he just did nothing. He could get info about his mother elsewhere.

This is why the Bleach one works better for me. If you prefer this episode event then more power to you. You don't see me prohibiting people from liking it, do you?

So, the big difference here is that Ichigo got a break in the middle of the fight and an option to leave, while Rudy had no option from the moment Orsted decided to kill him. Got it.

Just because he didn't have an absolute need to fight to protect his friend doesn't mean Rudy was as big a fool as you let on. Sure, his friends were strangely terrified, but from everything he'd seen Orsted had no intention to do anything to any of them, and he was just seeking some information that was very important to them due to their desperation to find their families. His one and only mistake was thinking that someone who asked if he'd heard of "Man-God" would not intend to kill him just for knowing him.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

So, the big difference here is that Ichigo got a break in the middle of the fight and an option to leave, while Rudy had no option from the moment Orsted decided to kill him. Got it.

How many times do I need to tell this? The OP Big Bad is Byakuya. Ichigo never got a break when he fought Byakuya. It was literally two moves from Byakuya and Ichigo got cut badly and left bleeding out. But he knew the risk beforehand.

In Rudy's case, the OP Big Bad is the dragon guy who attacked immediately without a henchmen warning. This is why he needs to listen to his stronger friend.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Just because he didn't have an absolute need to fight to protect his friend doesn't mean Rudy was as big a fool as you let on. Sure, his friends were strangely terrified, but from everything he'd seen Orsted had no intention to do anything to any of them, and he was just seeking some information that was very important to them due to their desperation to find their families. His one and only mistake was thinking that someone who asked if he'd heard of "Man-God" would not intend to kill him just for knowing him.

"Should've listened to his friend more" is basically what I want to say to Rudy this episode. Feel free to agree to disagree.

[Frontier]

The takeway is that Rudy didn't understand why Ruijerd and Eris were so terrified of Orsted because Orsted's curse doesn't effect him. He could see they were so off-put by it but he didn't really understand it because he was unaffected.

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Frontier

The takeway is that Rudy didn't understand why Ruijerd and Eris were so terrified of Orsted because Orsted's curse doesn't effect him. He could see they were so off-put by it but he didn't really understand it because he was unaffected.

I don't think it was a concept of not understanding. It really was the same with Ruijerd's first meeting. Even though Roxy told him how dangerous the Supard was, and Eris cowering with fear, he still decided to talk with him. BTW, Rudy also mentioned the Man-God, but Ruijerd obviously didn't know what he was talking about. Anyways, as Rudy is, he probably thought he could get some information if he just talked to the guy, as you said earlier. Seems like a very Rudy thing to do. Orsted was also half-cordial. No obvious aggression, and even asked Rudy what did he want to know. Doesn't seem far-fetched he'd let his guard down with Rudy's mention of the Man-God. I could see him getting excited to finally talk with someone who knows about the Man-God; its just that he didn't expect that kind of reaction.

[Tuor]

^ Rudy could see that Orsted was extremely dangerous and appeared to be very powerful. When he chose to talk to him, Rudy was *very* polite the entire time -- he was being careful not to say or do anything that might give offense. At the same time, he felt that maybe someone this powerful would know something about a thing like the Mana Disaster, and the only way to find out was to ask him about it, so he did. That's my read on it, anyway.

Rudy had no way of knowing that Man-God was a trigger for anyone, let alone Orsted. The fact that Orsted asked him about it was the first opportunity that Rudy has had of getting another person's take on the Man-God. And that take was... unexpectedly bad... and violent.

Still, he wasn't going to learn anything unless he asked, and even Ruijerd turned out to be an important ally and friend, despite people's reaction to him.

As far as how powerful they are on an absolute level: Dead End is pretty powerful. They are *not* weak. It's just that Orsted is exceedingly strong, and Rudy still was able to put a crack in the defenses of someone so overwhelmingly strong, who mentally praised the amount of mana he could channel. Orsted also said that Eris was much stronger at this point than what he "remembered".

Rudy *is* an exceptional guy -- in fact, all three members of Dead End are extremely exceptional. But they're not top tier, at least not yet and maybe not ever. Plus, remember that there are forms of power greater than sheer strength. For example, Rudy was able to befriend Ruijerd and together, the three of them have done a lot to weaken the curse that had been placed on Ruijerd's people.

Overall, I thought this was an excellent episode. I really feel sorry for Eris. I hope that Rudy can even dimly understand what she just went through, but I doubt it. He's getting better, but he's still too self-centered to really get it (or believe anyone could care for him that much). I guess we'll have to wait and see how that turns out.

[Xiyon]

Any LN reader wanna chime in if the source material expounded on Rudy's thought process for getting his team wiped by opening his mouth after, well, very obvious reasons not to?

Mulling over the episode (and manga, which seems to deviate slightly from the Anime/LN), I guess the only explanations are 1) we the audience, like Paul, expect too much out of Rudy; dude's only as clever as a 40(+ however many years Rudy is now) year old NEET, and 2) there might still be some part of Rudy that treats this whole Isekai-thing like a game.

Maybe it's less about a contrived scene to drive the plot forward, and more about Rudy being an idiot at heart who just happens to make smart decisions every now and then.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Xiyon

Maybe it's less about a contrived scene to drive the plot forward, and more about Rudy being an idiot at heart who just happens to make smart decisions every now and then.

This. It was completely in character. It wasn't even the first time that his own cockiness and obliviousness to danger led to someone being killed.

It happened when he stopped Ruijerd from saving the kids in the demon world, because he couldn't tell how risky that situation was and he was overconfident in his own ability to intervene before something irreversible could happen.


Still I wonder if things would have gone differently if Rudy said that he actually doesn't like the Man God. Perhaps the mere fact of being summoned by him is enough to prove you are his "apostle" regardless of whether you trust him or not.

[magnuskn]

Orsted pretty much jumped to the conclusion and started swinging immediately, so I'm not blaming Rudeus here.

[maximilianjenus]

i agree that people overestimate rudys intelligence. he is as clever as the most clever guy in the classroom, as seen in his backstory, he is not as clevernas the most clever guy in school, if he went to college he would be average in there.

in this case, he wanted to get more information on the teleport incident, he is not affected by the curse, so he did not feel as scared as riujerd and eris ( again, the paralels to meeting riujerd ).

about the consequences of the turning point, i will comment on them after next episode ( hopefully ), there are not enough clues for that yet , so anime onlies thinking it did not change the plot enough are being reasonable. there should be more.cluest next episode unless the anime staff does not adapt the chapter that follows this and skip around. for more context, rewatch turning point 1.

also, there is a very specific , author made definition for what is a turning pont inside mushoku tensei.