(L) Kannaduki no Miko

[Takemi_Ikazuchi]

Tsubasa took Souma's burden upon himself and Souma's life improved after that. (self delusion and memory repression is probably involved as well)

Himeko's problem comes from nearly everyone telling her what a useless girl she is. It's not just her parents.

And once again I must disagree with you about Souma being a great super robot pilot. If anything he's a mediocre one. To me a great super robot pilot would be someone like Shishio Gai for GaoGaiGar. Souma is earnest, pure, but he lacks that certain oomph factor that makes a Super Robot pilot. I think he's closer to a Gundam pilot. A Gundam pilot who screams his attacks.

I guess the fault comes mostly from Kannaduki not being a true super robot show. As such the super robot elements feel half hearted.

[evil|plushie]

I'm sorry, but are you implying that people can't improve their mental health without delusion and repressing their memories? And that doesn't disprove the point tha Souma suffered as a child either.

Um...Himeko has never done anything useful at all without help from others or prompting from others. It could be due to her parents influence on her, but unfortunately, I don't really see any evidence of that. She just seems weak-willed.

I said Souma was a damn good pilot, I didn't say he was a great pilot. He's not going to match up to the likes of Domon Kasshu or anything but he's not bad for recent animes.

[dreamless]

so nowadays strong-willed equals ignorance, self-delussion, memory repression and "not thinking"? Maybe everyone should think as hard as Shinji and keep whining I guess

Well, I guess Souma-kun and Mako-chan can make a nice couple... a good guy and a good girl... OTL

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by dreamless

so nowadays strong-willed equals ignorance, self-delussion, memory repression and "not thinking"? Maybe everyone should think as hard as Shinji and keep whining I guess

Well, I guess Souma-kun and Mako-chan can make a nice couple... a good guy and a good girl... OTL

Yeah, I agree. It seems that there's a recent trend where people will just like 'jerks' (I'd use a stronger word but...) just because they're not good guys. I mean, just look at the number of people who like Sasuke from naruto -_-.

[ati]

For me I like Chikane charecter because I saw both sides of her even good or bad ,in ep.1-7 it's very clear and easy that what was she thinking wanting and doing but after ep.7 I didn't know what she want to do ,it's hard to predict her behavior and that why I like her charecter . In contrast Souma is too pecfect guy ,I can not see his mistake even at least, it's easy to know what he must do and this point make him was not interesting ,in this case I think many of you may focus to Chikane more than him, however I like him coz he make me fun in many scenes. Anyway Himeko charecter I don't like this charecter and agree that she can not do anything by herself and her "it's my fault" mode make me feel annoying ,this Himeko is easy to read more than Souma no matter what anything happen I 'm sure she will said "it's my fault anyway" however in the last ep. she was improved at least she can decide to do something by herself and I quite surprise that she seems stronger than every ep. because I never thought that she will stay alone by herself without Chikane , the only thing I like in this charecter is her pure, if she stop to blame herself it will be good.

[dreamless]

well, IMO surely in KnM Chikane is a much more interesting character than Souma. for me on the "interesting scale" it's definitely Chikane > Souma > Himeko. However saying Souma is ignorant or delusional because he always takes the right path and do the right things (at least from the in-show perspective) is what I don't understand. I just think he's exactly what Himeko describes him (and Himeko, despite being the least interesting character IMO, seems to have the special ability of always knowing the true nature of others), a good guy... not really that interesting an character in KnM, but a good guy... OTL

[ati]

Acually, I like Souma in the end ,like you said he choose to protect the one he loves even he got nothing , and I think it's good to make him be the one who destroy Orochi , I think this show want to make us see that he is real hero ,anyway something I feel when I see Souma , he make me feel relax cheerful and funny sometime that's why I like him compare with Chikane ,she make me feel sadness despair even that she still show some kindness also , and Himeko , always make me confuse and nerve somehow I think she's cute coz she is the one who only see good thing in everyone so she should to have someone protect her. However I think both Chikane and Souma deserve someone better than Himeko .

[DeuceTrick]

Just thought I'd tell you guys that the soundtrack is live, courtesy of Nipponsei.
Get it while it's hot, folks.

[LK_LoA]

Best melodrama I've seen this year. There was forbidden yuri involved but the reason why Chikane turned evil was so out-of-this-world. XD

[Spiggy]

Originally Posted by LK_LoA

Best melodrama I've seen this year. There was forbidden yuri involved but the reason why Chikane turned evil was so out-of-this-world. XD

She knew what was going to happen in the end so might as well. I felt bad for my Chikane-chan...but I loved the mind game she played. Simply beautiful...

[Ju_ko]

For Dreamless, about an about 2 days old post. I know, it's has been ages.


First off, smart talk. very sensible and sensitive. ^^


I'd like to react to your passage about Souma's rôle in the serie.


Quote:

I'm not sure about whether he made a difference or not. What's a difference anyway? I don't think Chikane or Himeko made any difference, they can let the world get destroyed by Orochi and what's the difference? but anyway he made enough of a difference so Himeko doesn't get killed by him, and the two mikos don't get burned to crisp in the first episode. For the Ama no Murakumo part, no one has any idea what Chikane's purpose was at that time, not anyone in KnM, not even any one of us outside viewers. No one knows the future. He made his decision and spent efforts trying his best, whether it makes a difference or not in the end is not up to him. However he definitely never overrates himself, he's doing what he can, and he's trying to improve himself and overcome all difficulty despite the odds. In this case what matters most is not the result, but the fact that he already tries his best and makes efforts trying to do the right thing. He has trained himself, he has fought against destiny, he has done his best, whether he wins or not in the end, is not the important thing here.


I think, on a narrative point of vue, that Souma is the counter figure of Chikane.
The main characters are entangled is a triangular love relationship, or so it seems, during most of the show.
Someone's mental health influences his/her behaviour when confronted to traumatic events. You posted about it, I think.
Well... Souma and Chikane are both Himeko's lovers (taken as "in love with her", reciprocity isn't needed at this point)
Souma incarnates the ultimate unconditional Love, a kind that does not need to receive to be happy to give.
Chikane incarnates the consuming passion. Her love is obsession, pain, frustrations, lonelyness.

So, when it comes to the rôle Souma has in the serie, I believe he's there to give as much health as possible to an already emotionally broken Himeko. Souma's is Himeko's path to emotional health. It is clearly stated in the serie by Himeko "I was also given the power by others" in ep. 10. "Others", including Souma and especially him when you consider the 'Triangle' as the main emotional vessel for the serie.

So... Clearly souma has a main and important rôle in the serie, imho, of course.

-S

PS: I'll introduce myself properly... soon.... ^_-

[Timeless Enigma]

Yes, Oogami is certainly a character foil for Chikane. I liked how you explained it.

[The Yellow Dwarf]

Originally Posted by Sophie

Well... Souma and Chikane are both Himeko's lovers (taken as "in love with her", reciprocity isn't needed at this point)
Souma incarnates the ultimate unconditional Love, a kind that does not need to receive to be happy to give.
Chikane incarnates the consuming passion. Her love is obsession, pain, frustrations, lonelyness.

Hmm...well, I don't really disagree with you, but let me just throw an idea out here:

Is Souma's final, quiet acceptance of defeat a sign of the "ultimate unconditional" Love, or does he simply not love Himeko enough? Throughout the series Souma has been a little wish-washy about his stance towards Himeko. The date and the kiss are especially awkward as he repeatedly apologizes as if he is failing some sort of tests. It seems as if there is little emotion involved (only rage and disapointment at not being able to fulfil certain tasks e.g. "protect Himeko" if any). Souma's "love" seem to be immersed in the logical "responsibilities" and little on the emotional aspect.

It seems as if Souma is not really certain if he really loves Himeko, or even if he does he's afraid of showing it. Is it a sign of consideration or low self-esteem? Perhaps his repeated attempts to "protect Himeko", to "help others", to "save the Earth" are nothing but attempts to reassure himself his own place and importance in the world? To reassure himself that he is needed? Or perhaps, to repeat what his own brother did for him?

Does Souma really love Himeko, or does he love anybody whom needs "protection" and that person just happens to be Himeko?

Well...just an idea, not sure if I myself believe it. Feel free to to tear it apart.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by The Yellow Dwarf

Hmm...well, I don't really disagree with you, but let me just throw an idea out here:

Is Souma's final, quiet acceptance of defeat a sign of the "ultimate unconditional" Love, or does he simply not love Himeko enough? Throughout the series Souma has been a little wish-washy about his stance towards Himeko. The date and the kiss are especially awkward as he repeatedly apologizes as if he is failing some sort of tests. It seems as if there is little emotion involved (only rage and disapointment at not being able to fulfil certain tasks e.g. "protect Himeko" if any). Souma's "love" seem to be immersed in the logical "responsibilities" and little on the emotional aspect.

It seems as if Souma is not really certain if he really loves Himeko, or even if he does he's afraid of showing it. Is it a sign of consideration or low self-esteem? Perhaps his repeated attempts to "protect Himeko", to "help others", to "save the Earth" are nothing but attempts to reassure himself his own place and importance in the world? To reassure himself that he is needed? Or perhaps, to repeat what his own brother did for him?

Does Souma really love Himeko, or does he love anybody whom needs "protection" and that person just happens to be Himeko?

Well...just an idea, not sure if I myself believe it. Feel free to to tear it apart.

Souma...wishy washy about Himeko? When? He likes Himeko but he's afraid of doing something wrong and being rejected. It's partially the reason why Chikane herself didn't say anything to Himeko that she loved her for the 1st 6 episodes or so. If you use that analysis to judge Souma, you can just as easily judge Chikane by the same standards.

Let's put it this way, frankly, NO ONE in the entire series has a valid reason to like Himeko in their present life. I'm not a fan of 'oh, we were soulmates in the past life' plotline either...

Otoh, I suppose if Souma raped Himeko and then killed Orochi for her, that'd count as the ultimate fulfillment of love then -_-

[Mentar]

Hi Sophie, welcome to this board

Originally Posted by Sophie

Souma incarnates the ultimate unconditional Love, a kind that does not need to receive to be happy to give.
Chikane incarnates the consuming passion. Her love is obsession, pain, frustrations, lonelyness.

Hmmm... I'd say yes and no to that. Your distinction seems to deny Chikane's love certain attributes like being "unconditional", which is a bit misleading. If you look at the series from the end, Chikane was prepared to give till her very end (until 5:45 in the final episode, when her plan was completed - handing the symbolic hairpin back to Himeko, indicating "He will be the one caring for you from now on"), without receiving the "only thing she ever desired". This deserves most of your Souma description, this WAS unconditional love happy to give - however not "doesn't need to receive", but "regardless of unfulfilled needs". Which is something even greater in my opinion.

So, when it comes to the rôle Souma has in the serie, I believe he's there to give as much health as possible to an already emotionally broken Himeko. Souma's is Himeko's path to emotional health. It is clearly stated in the serie by Himeko "I was also given the power by others" in ep. 10. "Others", including Souma and especially him when you consider the 'Triangle' as the main emotional vessel for the serie.

INCLUDING him, I'd agree with this. His kindness helped Himeko on her way, but the person who played the major role for Himeko's emotional recovery was Chikane. Himeko's happy hours narrated in the anime were almost exclusively with Chikane, the Souma dates always had a lingering unease with them. And the climax of the Souma arc, the kiss, didn't lead to Himeko's happiness, but tears.

If I had to characterize the similarities and differences between Souma and Chikane, I think I'd try it this way: Both are similar in their willingness to care for the one they love - being prepared to die for her. This is genuine unconditional love to the highest degree, in both cases. The main difference I see is that Chikane NEEDS Himeko more than Souma does. This corresponds with the main part of your initial characterization - Chikane's form of love puts a much higher strain on her, because she's missing the reciprocated feelings from Himeko, much more than Souma does (who seems genuinely fine with NOT having Himeko as long as she's happy). Chikane is still doing all she can regardless of her pain, but she is NOT fine. That's the difference I'd see.

This is also why I'm happy with the outcome. Both are fine contenders for Himeko's affection, but Chikane NEEDS it more. From other animes, usually I find myself siding with the character in a love triangle who NEEDS the other one more, not the character who would be more "morally deserving". And in the case of Himeko, I believe that the final episode makes clear that she also NEEDS Chikane, and that a life with Souma, but without Chikane, would not be fulfilling for her.

Therefore I'd still call Souma a major character in the drama, but Himeko needed Chikane - and vice versa.

[Takemi_Ikazuchi]

It is clearly stated in the serie by Himeko "I was also given the power by others" in ep. 10. "Others", including Souma and especially him when you consider the 'Triangle' as the main emotional vessel for the serie.

Actually she was primarily referring to Chikane, as the visions during the summoning ritual indicated. It was Himeko's affection towards Chikane that was her major drive. That scene served as a double irony in my opinion. Souma receives his courage from Himeko, who in turn receives courage from Chikane.

To add insult to injury, we see a scene of an upset Souma staring at the crescent moon much later in the episode.

Personally I don't Souma helped very much to heal her emotional wounds. I know that he wanted to, mind you, but after episode 8 Himeko's mind is, how shall I put it... focused on a single issue and nearly deaf of all other matters.

On another note I believe that this episode also served as a beacon for Souma. Episode 10 combined with the earlier episode 8 and upcoming episode 11 served as hint to him regarding the state of Himeko's mindset. He had time to think and anticipate the outcome, and as a result he wasn't as surprised as he should be went Himeko dropped the news to him.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by The Yellow Dwarf

Hmm...well, I don't really disagree with you, but let me just throw an idea out here:

Is Souma's final, quiet acceptance of defeat a sign of the "ultimate unconditional" Love, or does he simply not love Himeko enough? Throughout the series Souma has been a little wish-washy about his stance towards Himeko. The date and the kiss are especially awkward as he repeatedly apologizes as if he is failing some sort of tests. It seems as if there is little emotion involved (only rage and disapointment at not being able to fulfil certain tasks e.g. "protect Himeko" if any). Souma's "love" seem to be immersed in the logical "responsibilities" and little on the emotional aspect.

It seems as if Souma is not really certain if he really loves Himeko, or even if he does he's afraid of showing it. Is it a sign of consideration or low self-esteem? Perhaps his repeated attempts to "protect Himeko", to "help others", to "save the Earth" are nothing but attempts to reassure himself his own place and importance in the world? To reassure himself that he is needed? Or perhaps, to repeat what his own brother did for him?

Does Souma really love Himeko, or does he love anybody whom needs "protection" and that person just happens to be Himeko?

Well...just an idea, not sure if I myself believe it. Feel free to to tear it apart.

Huh? He surely loves Himeko, but then actually both Chikane and Souma love Himeko somewhat unconditionally I guess. It's revealed that Chikane is also willing to "give away" Himeko to Souma as long as Himeko is happy, same as Souma. Maybe they both unconditionally love Himeko, in their own different ways.

And frankly I think people should realize that there's no point bashing Souma in Kannaduki no Miko. Kannaduki no Miko is great in that both Chikane and Souma TRUELY loves Himeko. The show will be LAME if Souma doesn't love Himeko, then all the drama is for nothing, heck, so he doesn't really love her? That makes the entire show extremely stupid. Souma sacrificing himself, enduring unimaginable pain and sufferings, all that anger against Orochi, not because of love, but because he wants to reassure his own place? I guess it's the whole ignorance, delusion, whatever nonsense again.

I think some Chikane/yuri fanboys should just accept the fact that Souma is the perfect shounen anime kind of a male protagonist, hotblood, unconditional love, fight evil to protect his important ones, believe in love and sacrifice, etc. etc. and that's part of the reason of why Kannaduki no Miko is so fun to watch. If you want something with pure yuri and no good male characters, then Kannaduki no Miko is not for you

Yup Souma was upset, but not because Himeko loves Chikane, but because Himeko is hurt and he failed his promise to protect her, like any male protagonist in a shounen anime would be.

[Mentar]

Regardless of having been a staunch Chikane supporter from the start, I've got to agree with dreamless: Souma doesn't deserve most of the bashing he receives on this board in the end :} ... let's keep it nice, people. He's been playing his role, and it _was_ a major one. No need to belittle this.

[Takemi_Ikazuchi]

Originally Posted by dreamless

Yup Souma was upset, but not because Himeko loves Chikane, but because Himeko is hurt and he failed his promise to protect her, like any male protagonist in a shounen anime would be.

I was referring to the crescent moon scene in episode 10. He was clearly upset in that a scene, and I don't believe the crescent moon symbolism followed by scene in the Himemiya mansion was coincidental. To me the visual metaphore was obvious.

If you have another interpretation of the scene feel free to tell me, though.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by Takemi_Ikazuchi

I was referring to the crescent moon scene in episode 10. He was clearly upset in that a scene, and I don't believe the crescent moon symbolism followed by scene in the Himemiya mansion was coincidental. To me the visual metaphore was obvious.

If you have another interpretation of the scene feel free to tell me, though.

I'm not sure what "visual metaphor" you are talking about here, as far as I see, it's the same "visual metaphor" used as in episode 1, when Souma fight Orochi and shouting "I'll protect Himeko" and it switches with scenes of the girls kissing. Yup I can't stop laughing at that scene in ep1, and I can't stop laughing at that scene in ep10. It's just soooo funny despite it has no real comedy. If you think there's some different "visual metaphor", then please tell us about it.