(L) Kotetsujo no Kabaneri (Knocking on the Walls of the Armored Fortress)

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Kanon

And here I was hoping Biba would be a nuanced villain. Nope, he's a full on evil bastard who doesn't hesitate to turn his closest allies into guinea pigs and kill thousands of innocents while smiling. That kind of villain can be cool if they have a strong or fun personality, but he's as boring as a doormat.

Exactly. This anime introduced a character who was strong and had potential to be the source of a moral conflict. He could have been a somewhat well-meaning guy with questionable views whom the heroes would have had to reluctantly fight against. Instead he ended up as an all-evil monster bastard who must be stopped at all costs because the writers feel the need to slam down the idea that obviously the heroes are the only ones in the right and anyone who doesn't join their cause is pure evil.

[Freeter]

I have a feeling the staff realized they couldn't keep up the sakuga for Mumei and the Kabane, so they had to introduce a cookie-cutter villain (with Levi vibes for the bishie appeal ) to tone it down.

At the rate things are going, this series would have been better off as a movie or an OVA. Heck, I wouldn't mind a live action version of this if they don't insert the corniness that SnK's films suffered.

[Cloudedmind]

I'm not really seeing the Biba is a cartoon villain though. Yes, he largely seems to be motivated by revenge, and has no problem sacrificing people to get to his main goal, friend or foe, although most of his "friends" seem to be going along with this willingly, so I wouldn't feel to sorry for them. Here's what we know of Biba so far. 10 years ago the shogun left him and his men to die, as he sees it. Currently, he seem to be trying to destroy all the walled cities for supposed liberation. He seems to be associating these cities with a form of cowardice, and that mankind is to busy holing themselves up like scared animals instead of fighting the threat, and essentially leaving other people to do their dirty work. I get the feeling that he feels that this is especially what the shogun is doing. And after the supposed wrong that's been done to him by the shogun, he may possible feel the shogun no longer has a right to rule, when he's just sitting behind his walled fortress safe and sound, while others sacrifice themselves for him. And so in his anger and new enlightenment as he would see it, he's tearing down the symbol of the shogun and the people's cowardice and teaching them the same lesson he taught Mumei, the strong live and the weak die, if you want to live you'll fight and become strong, or die trying. The same lesson he himself felt he had to learn the hard way when the shogun abandoned him. Of course at this point he's probably buying into his own BS, that he really is liberating these people, and so for him the ends may justify the means.

[Kusaja]

Expecting "nuanced moral conflict" would make sense if Biba had been a key part of the show from the start and if this particular story had ever dealt with such complex morality. It definitely hasn't done that. Therefore, I think it isn't a very realistic demand.

Furthermore, asking that from a new character introduced almost towards the end (he had only been mentioned in passing a couple of times before) of a 12 episode series seems like an almost impossible expectation to meet. Especially when there apparently isn't another season in planning either. I am sure that the decision to have Biba as the final boss was made a long time ago. Otherwise, it would just be killing zombies over and over again.

Once again, this series hasn't really focused on the sort of ethics and subtle material that would imply its eventual villain would be morally ambiguous. I do not know where that impression would come from. I guess they can still go into a flashback of Biba's past and explain why he became this way in greater detail, but in the present he is supposed to be a despicable villain, regardless of how his corruption came about.

[Blonto]

You know what could've maybe worked if they really really had to have the goddamn human villain? A moral dilemma regarding whether forcibly turning people into kabaneri is justified when humanity is getting desperate. It'd tie into the whole apocalypse feel the series was supposed to have and certainly be more interesting than...whatever they're trying to do with this.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Expecting "nuanced moral conflict" would make sense if Biba had been a key part of the show from the start and if this particular story had ever dealt with such complex morality. It definitely hasn't done that. Therefore, I think it isn't a very realistic demand.

If the villain is going to be just a plain old bad guy with the most nonsensical, dumbest reasons to be evil, then what's the point? It's clear that they're trying to do some extreme darwinism schtick with him, but it's just so badly written and nonsensical it's embarrassing to watch. Stick to zombies if you want evil with zero complexity. No-one forced them to shove in a shitty generic bishounen villain when they had a perfectly workable premise with zombies and a mere 1 cour to not mess it up.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Furthermore, asking that from a new character introduced almost towards the end (he had only been mentioned in passing a couple of times before) of a 12 episode series seems like an almost impossible expectation to meet. Especially when there apparently isn't another season in planning either. I am sure that the decision to have Biba as the final boss was made a long time ago. Otherwise, it would just be killing zombies over and over again.

Do people really think that you can't make mere 12 episodes fun only with zombies as the primary villains? Really? It's not like we don't have a ton of other zombie stories flooding the market that have managed to do it. The writers didn't even try to develop the characters and there was barely any focus on stuff like looking for resources, interpersonal conflicts or hard decisions that typically provide conflict in stories like this. Also if it was set in an interesting steampunk Japanese setting, it could've had some worldbuilding to provide intrigue too. Sadly it's just a typical feudal Japan with a few steampunkish canisters here and there and big walls.

Also, shoving in a bad guy at the last moment when you have no time to develop him is plain and simply shitty writing. I do not understand people who act like a story is something writers are thrown into, rather than something they make up from scratch. If you have no time to work a villain into the story, guess what; you don't put them in the story. It's that simple. Everything in a story is made up and if it's stupid or boring, it needs to be removed and replaced with something better. Justifying crappy writing because "the writer didn't have time to develop what they put into the story" is acting as if the story is out of their hands. It's their job to make the story work with the elements they created, their job is to make the time to develop the things that have priority. If you have a ton of ideas and no time to develop all of them, you have to either remove the focus off some of them or remove them completely (in writing this is called "killing your darlings"). You can't just make up a bunch of nonsense, shove it into a story and expect the audiences to be fine with it because you just couldn't make them work, as if the story direction and pacing are simply out of your control.
It's the same argument people use to justify the horrible writing in the first season of Korra. "They had only 12 episodes" well then write a freakin' story that's fit for only 12 episodes instead of faffing about with useless crap and then acting like you have no time to develop plot points that are actually relevant. You know from the start you're only going to have 12 episodes, it's not like they surprised you with that limitation in the middle of development.

[moncikoma]

for some reason... i get the feeling that the director know that everyone will hate biba...
and mumei... and trash talking this anime starting from ep 8-9, and i got a feeling that in ep 110 or maybe 11-12.. things will get resolved pretty nice.. and biba DEAD.. horribley..

and everyone will be happy.. and satisfied with the ending..
i mean most of them.. not everyone..

it could be their Final tactic to survived this hard to make 12 episodes anime..to be finished in a rush.. with tight budget and all..

its pretty cheat.. and smart..if u know how it works..

just look at these hate and flooding comments..
rating drop and everything.. well yeah.. its obvious..
but something tells me.. psychologicly.. humans love to hate and complained about everything.. and want something to be done.. A REVENGE!!!

i think the key of success of this anime is on the last episode.. no matter how crazy it gets.. i really want to know.. how the director and writer handle this.. in the next episodes.. possible ep 12..

i think.. if my prediction is right... there will be an awesome plot twist... like
ikoma become a full kabaneri... when he unleashed his final power.. (*the restraint could be his gem or on his neck) .. or maybe biba is acttually a nice guy... the real enemy is SHOGUN...

or something even major... maybe mumei deaths..will satisfies everyone? *not me though

[Nvis]

I thought I read somewhere there is an Original Person/Kabane that started this whole infection. The Patient "zero" or whatever you call it.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by SuitUp

I mean, I knew this wasn't a work based aroudn subtlety, but c'mon, this is ridiculous, Biba is so cartoonishly evil and his followers so completely brainwashed that I'm watching the damn Red Skull, I mean, the "Liberation" chant was a hand gesture away from Hail Hydra.

Someone should edit this to say "Hail Biba"


Ah well. It is what it is. Definitely disappointing to me, and a real shame given how strong this show was in its first half, and given this show's fantastic aesthetics and action scenes. Perhaps those most upset by the recent turn of events should try to pretend that the show ended at the end of Episode 6, or at a good stopping point midway through Episode 7.

[BoyTitan]

Originally Posted by Tempester

Exactly. This anime introduced a character who was strong and had potential to be the source of a moral conflict. He could have been a somewhat well-meaning guy with questionable views whom the heroes would have had to reluctantly fight against. Instead he ended up as an all-evil monster bastard who must be stopped at all costs because the writers feel the need to slam down the idea that obviously the heroes are the only ones in the right and anyone who doesn't join their cause is pure evil.

You guys are missing the point. Biba killing everyone and destroying the wall is the equivalent to char dropping asteroids on earth. He is trying to free humanity from fear. He is taking the most extreme and cult like route but the thing is humanity is more than capable of deal with the kabane the walls don't protect them. The shogun does not protect them. They are simply hiding living in fear of the Kabane.

He is litterally Ikoma foil.

“What you need to survive… It’s not some tool that will keep you hidden and safe. It’s power to fight the Kabane without fear. Twenty years ago, fear of the Kabane drove the people of Hinomoto to take shelter in stations. They abandoned their pride and fellow man and fled. Can we really be proud of our survival that’s predicated on sacrificing our own? Their lives aren’t all we lose.”

They have 2 different approaches to the same goal.

Seriously everyone is missing every single detail in this series. You can't call a story bad if you can't read between the lines.

"In any case, because people are too scared to fight, he’ll bring the fight to them. So in the end, both Ikoma and Biba achieve equality. You can either lift the weak up, or just get rid of them entirely"

People follow him like a hail hydra manner because thats how cults work. The people saying hail Hitler in real life looked cartoonish as fuck they still where a world threat.

Also you know what Hitler and Biba have in common being controlled by fear and revenge.

[Blonto]

lol the walls and shogun aren't protecting humanity? They've been doing a pretty damn good job so far. I have a feeling you're projecting based on that rubbish in Attack on Titan where they've been living very comfortably inside the walls (certainly a lot more comfortably than people in the actual middle ages) but they wanted to be free...because?? It's like if I wanted to dive to the bottom of the ocean with no equipment to protect me because "I don't want to be limited by life on land and the fear of drowning and dammit, I'm gonna go explore the Mariana trench". It'd be utterly idiotic, but even that doesn't scratch the surface of the idiocy of Biba's motives which is akin to causing a tsunami because...people live in fear of drowning? And not going into the ocean to drown is bad for humanity? And having lifeguards doesn't protect them either? Uh, this is supposed to make sense somehow?

Also justifying nonsensical and suicidal motivations with "psychopath" and "cults" is the stupidest way to defend flaws in a show. Hitler made use of Germany's bad state after WW1 and the already existing bias against Jews, among other things. Biba is literally basing his "cult" around murdering what remains of humanity when humanity is going through a zombie apocalypse. Yeah, self-extermination is very in demand in such situations.

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by Blonto

You know what could've maybe worked if they really really had to have the goddamn human villain? A moral dilemma regarding whether forcibly turning people into kabaneri is justified when humanity is getting desperate.

That concept has also been done before, so it's not an entirely fresh or new idea either. Nor would it be used as a complicated moral dilemma, since this isn't the sort of story where you'd have a long debate inside a quiet room instead of people trying to kill each other. That isn't how the show has handled itself before.

No-one forced them to shove in a shitty generic bishounen villain when they had a perfectly workable premise with zombies and a mere 1 cour to not mess it up.

There isn't any contradiction between fighting zombies and having an evil human exploit the situation for his own ends. In fact, that's a very common setup and not something invented by the creators of this series. Why is that not "perfectly workable" in its own right?

I don't think his reasons are necessarily "nonsensical" just because he happens to be incorrect and, evidently, more or less insane. Evil does not need to be inherently justified or sympathetic. That does make for better stories, but not every case needs to go there. It's precisely because this show has dealt with zombies as its primary concern that I don't see any radical change in terms of morality resulting from this.

Do people really think that you can't make mere 12 episodes fun only with zombies as the primary villains? Really? It's not like we don't have a ton of other zombie stories flooding the market that have managed to do it.

How many of those stories are action/adventure anime where impulsive teenagers have supernatural abilities? That's also part of this show's primary genre content. Exclusively relying on zombies is fine if you've got an ongoing survival story based on a manga or other source material that hasn't ended yet, but it wouldn't provide enough closure nor enough action in practice.

The writers didn't even try to develop the characters and there was barely any focus on stuff like looking for resources, interpersonal conflicts or hard decisions that typically provide conflict in stories like this.

I would disagree. There has been some development. I do understand you wanted a more survival-focused show with no specific villain, but I never believed this series was aiming for that.

If you have no time to work a villain into the story, guess what; you don't put them in the story. It's that simple. Everything in a story is made up and if it's stupid or boring, it needs to be removed and replaced with something better.

Except that the presence of such a villain does make sense, both in context and from a purely production and genre-based perspective. Concepts like "stupidity" or "boredom" are not universally defined, so you can't automatically please everyone.

Originally Posted by Blonto

Also justifying nonsensical and suicidal motivations with "psychopath" and "cults" is the stupidest way to defend flaws in a show. Hitler made use of Germany's bad state after WW1 and the already existing bias against Jews, among other things. Biba is literally basing his "cult" around murdering what remains of humanity when humanity is going through a zombie apocalypse. Yeah, self-extermination is very in demand in such situations.

That's okay (although a bit simplistic and incomplete as a formal historical explanation, but I digress). However, I would point out that Biba isn't actually murdering everyone so far.

[Blonto]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

That concept has also been done before, so it's not an entirely fresh or new idea either. Nor would it be used as a complicated moral dilemma, since this isn't the sort of story where you'd have a long debate inside a quiet room instead of people trying to kill each other. That isn't how the show has handled itself before.

The whole concept behind this show has been done before, it's just that it's been done in a way slightly different than usual (mixing Japan and steampunk and setting it on a train). The moral dilemma would come naturally the moment kabaneri could be artificially created, you wouldn't need to make up some cliché suicidal cult to force conflict into the story because zombies barely count as a threat anymore. Biba is an overdone villain that's offered absolutely nothing interesting to the story. The conflict he's created really has nothing to do with zombies, you can copy+paste him into any other story and the result would be the same: a shitty villain with the typical "only the strong deserve to survive" motivations that's just there for the heroes to kill.
Also I find it pretty funny how you say there's no room for talk in this show when we've just had scenes dedicated precisely to that. You know, Biba discussing about his motives with MC. MC talking with Mumei about Biba. Biba talking with that ninja woman. There's been plenty of quiet talking with no action in this show.

How many of those stories are action/adventure anime where impulsive teenagers have supernatural abilities? That's also part of this show's primary genre content. Exclusively relying on zombies is fine if you've got an ongoing survival story based on a manga or other source material that hasn't ended yet, but it wouldn't provide enough closure nor enough action in practice.

So basically "It's a cliché so it's a-ok!". Really? We can't fault a show for being predictable and badly written because "that's expected from the genre"? Is there a reason why every anime has to follow every cliché associated with it to a T? Is there a reason every protagonist in an action anime has to have the same generic shounen personality? Is there a reason they have to shove in some garbage superpowers like laser beams because "shiny things" are a part of the genre? Maybe they should've added some tits and asses because that's a part of the genre too? OH, how about a hotsprings episode where the guys go to peek on the girls? Heaven forbid an anime not follow a path that's been clearly set before it with every single plot development and character archetype that's popular in the genre.
And it'd make more sense to rely on a human villain if there was an ongoing story, because at least then you'd have the excuse of wanting to add some variety. You do not have this excuse in mere 12 episodes, you're just incompetent if you can't make 12 episodes fun without shoving in a horrible cardboard-cutout villain.

I don't think his reasons are necessarily "nonsensical" just because he happens to be incorrect and, evidently, more or less insane. Evil does not need to be inherently justified or sympathetic. That does make for better stories, but not every case needs to go there. It's precisely because this show has dealt with zombies as its primary concern that I don't see any radical change in terms of morality resulting from this.

"It's not that his reasons are nonsensical, it's just that they're nonsensical". Ah yes, the classic "creators can shove any kind of rubbish into the story and it's gonna be fine as long as the villain is insane/a dictator/a cultist etc. etc.". Yes, let's make up a human villain because we need complex human motivations and then let's make his motivations not make any logical sense because he's "insane", and not only that, let's have a bunch of people follow him too. Maybe they're insane too? Maybe we can put a pancake on Biba's head or have him wear bunny ears. He's insane, that makes everything you do with him ok, right?

Except that the presence of such a villain does make sense, both in context and from a purely production and genre-based perspective. Concepts like "stupidity or boredom" are not universally defined, so you can't automatically please everyone.

If most of your viewers think your story is terrible, then I have bad news for you. The fact is, something like Transformers and Citizen Kane are not equally good, no matter how much you want to harp on about stupidity and boredom not being universally defined. Also if your story lacks logical sense and is rife with plot holes, then it's objectively stupid. And if it offers only clichés and nothing new, it's boring as well.

[HayashiTakara]

Ikoma; takes severe physical punishment far beyond any human can take and gets beat up by a man with a stick, talk about shitty inconsistency :T

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by Blonto

Also I find it pretty funny how you say there's no room for talk in this show when we've just had scenes dedicated precisely to that. You know, Biba discussing about his motives with MC. MC talking with Mumei about Biba. Biba talking with that ninja woman. There's been plenty of quiet talking with no action in this show.

None of those talking scenes were presented as part of a narrative conclusion. Do you honestly believe that Kabaneri of the Iron Fortress would end with a peaceful debate between Ikoma and someone else, rather than a fight scene? This is primarily an action-based anime. There are talking scenes, yes, but they aren't the central focus of the conflicts.

So basically "It's a cliché so it's a-ok!". Really? We can't fault a show for being predictable and badly written because "that's expected from the genre"? Is there a reason why every anime has to follow every cliché associated with it to a T?

You can certainly criticize that, if your preferences differ. But that doesn't mean everyone else has to react the same way. Or do you expect every new anime to re-invent the wheel? Conventions, tropes or stereotypes exist because that is, in fact, the way things are usually done. They are not inherently good or bad either. I won't follow your excessive use of "reductio ad absurdum" since that wasn't even the point.

"It's not that his reasons are nonsensical, it's just that they're nonsensical". Ah yes, the classic "creators can shove any kind of rubbish into the story and it's gonna be fine as long as the villain is insane/a dictator/a cultist etc. etc.".

No, I said that he is insane and incorrect. That's not the same as being "nonsensical" either. There can be a flawed and twisted logic to his actions, which is different. I can think of various ways to explain his madness. Perhaps it would be good to wait and see what happens next first, because the series obviously hasn't finished yet.

Again, we can dislike his plans and still attempt to understand how they work, rather than only dismissing them as "illogical" for simply not being something a "normal" person would do. We don't have enough information to speculate about why his followers support him.

Talk about grossly misrepresenting my argument. Honestly, if you simply want to scream your heart out and intimidate those who disagree, then there's no need for us to argue.

If most of your viewers think your story is terrible, then I have bad news for you. The fact is, something like Transformers and Citizen Kane are not equally good, no matter how much you want to harp on about stupidity and boredom not being universally defined. Also if your story lacks logical sense and is rife with plot holes, then it's objectively stupid. And if it offers only clichés and nothing new, it's boring as well.

This is a fallacy. Objectively speaking, we do not know what the majority of the viewers think. There are multiple people on international sites who aren't happy with this new episode, but that doesn't mean the audience as a whole reflects your exact attitude. Nor does the majority necessarily have the "right" opinion.

"Stupidity" is not an objective term, and your current complaints aren't even about plot holes. If they are, then be specific about them. Just calling something "illogical" without additional examination or because you are personally opposed to the idea isn't much of an argument either. Different things will always be boring to different people. There is no need to generalize so much.

And who is even pretending that Transformers and Citizen Kane are the same thing? That's not my point. But once again, I don't think you want to have a good faith discussion about this.

[Blonto]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

That wasn't the point. I didn't mean that so literally. Let's not ignore the difference in context. None of those talking scenes were presented as part of a narrative conclusion. Do you honestly believe that Kabaneri of the Iron Fortress would end with a peaceful debate between Ikoma and someone else, rather than a fight scene? This is primarily an action-based anime. There are talking scenes, yes, but they aren't the central focus.

Why in the world are you talking as if what I said requires five episodes of sitting around and having deep philosophical discussions? Is the concept that mind-boggling to you or something? I really can't comprehend how you can think that this shitty cult subplot is the only intelligent way to provide action, especially considering it's already provided us with boring talky episodes. You are giving writers far too little credit (not these writers, writers in general) if you think this is the best that can possibly be done.

You can certainly criticize that, if your preferences differ. But that doesn't mean everyone else has to react the same way. Or do you expect every new anime to re-invent the wheel? Conventions, tropes or stereotypes exist because that is, in fact, the way things are usually done. They are not inherently good or bad either. I won't follow your excessive use of "reductio ad absurdum" since that wasn't even the point.

Um, no, clichés don't exist because they work. They exist because they're easy to write. Why bother thinking of something new when you can just copy what's been done before and pick up your paycheck? Why think of an original or logical conflict that arises from a previous setup, which is difficult and requires planning, when you can just copy some generic bad guy plot and be done with it? Oh yeah, because people are watching your show to see something new. If you just want to watch the same thing over and over again, pop in your favorite show and do it. No point in making the same show a hundred times.
Also I don't think you know what reducio ad absurdum means. Being generic just because it's in the genre is suddenly not ok when applied to stuff you don't like or...?

This is a fallacy. Objectively speaking, we do not know what the majority of the viewers think. There are multiple people on international sites who aren't happy with this new episode, but that doesn't mean the audience as a whole reflects your exact attitude. Nor does the majority necessarily have the "right" opinion.

Yes, when the majority of viewers on most anime sites hate this anime, I'm sure that doesn't mean that the majority of viewers hate this anime. You're free to invest money into doing some formal study on how many people dislike this show, I'm gonna go ahead and assume that if the majority of comments in the not-particularly-critical anime communities here, on Reddit and MAL agree that this show is bad, that it's probably what the majority thinks. If 8/10 comments are criticizing this show, then maybe, just maaaaybe people don't like it. While you're at it you can also finance a study to prove that water is hot if it burns you.

And who is even pretending that Transformers and Citizen Kane are the same thing? That's not my point. But once again, I don't think you want to have a good faith discussion about this.

One thing you need to realize about discussions, if you make a bad argument and this argument falls apart upon the slightest inspection, then it's probably not a good argument. It's not because I can't read your mind or because of "reducio ad absurdum", it's just that the argument does not hold water, simple as that. If you argue that no-one can decide the quality of a story, you are essentially arguing that things like Citizen Kane and Transformers are both equally valuable. And some people actually believe that, but I find that most people who make this argument only do it to defend shows that everyone else agrees are crap, but they don't.
Also me and some other people already mentioned some of the many plot holes, inconsistencies and crappy writing in this show, you really don't have to look far to find it. The story's been rife with them since the beginning, but now that the show's become boring and completely generic they're unbearable. By the way if you need to imagine things that weren't explained in the show to try and justify crappy writing, that doesn't count as an explanation.

[darkchibi07]

It's not like this episode killed preorders, right? Right?

Ok, this series is on shaky ground, and god forbid I hope they don't screw over Mumei over more. I pray she abandons Biba before anything bad happens to her.

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by Blonto

Why in the world are you talking as if what I said requires five episodes of sitting around and having deep philosophical discussions? Is the concept that mind-boggling to you or something? I really can't comprehend how you can think that this shitty cult subplot is the only intelligent way to provide action, especially considering it's already provided us with boring talky episodes. You are giving writers far too little credit (not these writers, writers in general) if you think this is the best that can possibly be done.

Except I've never made such an exaggerated claim, so you are misrepresenting my position again. Could you please stop doing that? No, this isn't a particularly intelligent anime in the grand scheme of things. That's been obvious from the start. It's also not the only possible alternative for an action-based conclusion. However, I do think your proposal would be more fitting for a show with other, more intellectual priorities and/or from a different genre. But apparently you must transparently twist the facts and claim I've suggested this is the "best" option that all writers must follow in all cases.

Um, no, clichés don't exist because they work. They exist because they're easy to write. Why bother thinking of something new when you can just copy what's been done before and pick up your paycheck?

They're both easy to write and proven to be effective enough on more than one occasion. That said, they can clearly be used in both better and worse ways. That depends on the circumstances. It's also rather silly to assume that there isn't any planning behind the series just because you're disappointed by the choices made along the way. And, one more time, even your proposals would not lead to "something new" either.

Yes, when the majority of viewers on most anime sites hate this anime, I'm sure that doesn't mean that the majority of viewers hate this anime.

And now you're simply telling lies through sheer hyperbole, because hating an episode does not mean hatred of the entire anime. The fact you're comparing differences of opinion about a work of entertainment that is still currently airing to something as evident as whether hot water burns or not is yet another example of your unfortunate inability to have a serious and respectful exchange.

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that if the majority of comments in the not-particularly-critical anime communities here, on Reddit and MAL agree that this show is bad, that it's probably what the majority thinks. If 8/10 comments are criticizing this show, then maybe, just maaaaybe people don't like it

Except you're pulling statistics out of thin air and cherry-picking reactions. There are many comments saying that this episode was bad. It doesn't follow, however, that the majority thinks the entire show is bad. Quite a few comments are more nuanced than yours. But obviously, when people had more positive things to say about previous episodes, that doesn't factor into your gross generalization. And naturally, you will ignore that the show is still highly rated in MAL (which is a site you brought up, not me) or that the pre-order numbers are among the highest of the season. Nah, the majority of the audience hates everything about the series, right?

One thing you need to realize about discussions, if you make a bad argument and this argument falls apart upon the slightest inspection, then it's probably not a good argument.

You are not exactly a supreme authority on the matter, to say the least, going by your previous and current behavior.

If you argue that no-one can decide the quality of a story, you are essentially arguing that things like Citizen Kane and Transformers are both equally valuable. And some people actually believe that, but I find that most people who make this argument only do it to defend shows that everyone else agrees are crap, but they don't.

Once again, that isn't what I said. You keep throwing words in my mouth that have never been spoken nor implied. "Boredom" and "stupidity" are not automatically related to the inherent quality of a movie. Going by your logic, then there is never any room for disagreement between critics or viewers. Whenever any real or apparent majority within a community considers anything to be "boring"...that is some sort of final judgment? No, not necessarily. And yet you are somehow claiming that your opinions about this show (not only the newest episode) are shared by "everyone else"...that's silly.

The story's been rife with them since the beginning

I wasn't referring to the show as a whole, but to the latest episode.

By the way if you need to imagine things that weren't explained in the show to try and justify crappy writing, that doesn't count as an explanation.

So does this mean you're the only one who is allowed to interpret existing information? Or that only pessimistic conclusions are possible?

The show can always provide more information that will either confirm or deny our individual interpretations. I've acknowledged as much.

[BoyTitan]

Originally Posted by Blonto

lol the walls and shogun aren't protecting humanity? They've been doing a pretty damn good job so far. I have a feeling you're projecting based on that rubbish in Attack on Titan where they've been living very comfortably inside the walls (certainly a lot more comfortably than people in the actual middle ages) but they wanted to be free...because?? It's like if I wanted to dive to the bottom of the ocean with no equipment to protect me because "I don't want to be limited by life on land and the fear of drowning and dammit, I'm gonna go explore the Mariana trench". It'd be utterly idiotic, but even that doesn't scratch the surface of the idiocy of Biba's motives which is akin to causing a tsunami because...people live in fear of drowning? And not going into the ocean to drown is bad for humanity? And having lifeguards doesn't protect them either? Uh, this is supposed to make sense somehow?

Also justifying nonsensical and suicidal motivations with "psychopath" and "cults" is the stupidest way to defend flaws in a show. Hitler made use of Germany's bad state after WW1 and the already existing bias against Jews, among other things. Biba is literally basing his "cult" around murdering what remains of humanity when humanity is going through a zombie apocalypse. Yeah, self-extermination is very in demand in such situations.

Its not like attack on titan. Humans here are dieing because they won't fight back against a killable unintelligent enemy. Research on the enemy is banned. No weapons are being designed to kill the enemy etc. Kabane have this superstitious stigma attached to them. Humans have been loosing base by base over the last 20 years its not working.

If Biba and a small group can wipe out Kabane and take back bases it shows all that is needed to killthe kabane is to research them, fight them and stop being scared. You don't have to go to Biba cult like extremes but the fact remains humans should not live in fear of the Kabane.

Where as with AoT humans should most definitely live in fear of the titans we don't know much about Titans still.


Biba is murdering the weak while at the same time showing off his strenght. He did kill the kabane he released no problem which where a 100+ He did capture a 100+ kabane in the first place. Clearly the Kabane are not a threat to him.

[Blonto]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Except I've never made such an exaggerated claim, so you are misrepresenting my position again. Could you please stop doing that?

Sure, as soon as you think of an argument that doesn't immediately fall apart when taken to its logical conclusion. It is not up to me to try to make your arguments make sense.

However, I do think your proposal would be more fitting for a show with other, more intellectual priorities and/or from a different genre.

Hey.
Hey.
Look at this:
Biba starts kidnapping people, some from the main cast, to forcibly turn into his own kabaneri army so that he could overtake the outside world. The main characters try to stop him. Cue fight scenes to your heart's content.
Add in eventual zombification for despair to make kabaneri more of a crappy option with benefits and less OP godmode option like it is now. See, you do not have to be some highly intellectual work of art to not be garbage.

So does this mean you're the only one who is allowed to interpret existing information? Or that only pessimistic conclusions are possible?

You're the one telling me I can't work with what we've got until the anime's finished airing with the hope that it will magically fill in all the plot holes (it won't) and somehow make the shitty villain cliché not shitty.
If we continued arguing I would have to go into detail explaining the basics of storytelling to you, which I don't have the nerves to go into. So I will keep it simple:
Explain to me Biba's motivations without using "insane", "crazy", "psycho" or any other such word.

[Master_Yoma]

Well that station town fall fast what is Biba thinking doing that its a little far to go just for revenge

Noo not Horobi