Code Geass R2 - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll

[Var]

Originally Posted by animeboy12

I don't know about using Jphn McCain as a good source especially since he isn't a specialist on the subject and besides if torture is worst, most ineffective way to get information I think modern society would've gotten rid of it by now. I don't support torture but that's how things are

Last time I checked, John McCain was tortured during the Vietnam war. I'd trust his word over the word of some egotistical 'specialist' who thinks they know reality. Understanding something and knowing about it are very different things.

Torture has been outlawed by the modern world, it is only used to hurt people now, nothing more.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Kallen: You can't do this I'm a POW!!!

Suzaku: What of it?

Kallen:

SUZAKU LAYS THE SMACKDOWN AND REFRAINS HER ASS!!!

Ougi: What ever happened to the Kallen girl?

Zero:

OotBK only care about rules when it suits them anyways.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

The Black Knights are the armed forces representing the United States of Japan. And if they were not internationally recognized then why would countries sign treaties and charters with them? Kallen is protected by international law as a POW, regardless of the body count she racked up, unless you are implying that ace fighter pilots also warrant torture if captured.

The OotBK is not recognized by Britannia as a nation. The only reason why Britannia doesn't go there right now is because they are under the protection of the Chinese government. Seeing as the OotBk are only allies with Chinese Fed. and not citizens makes Kallen not a POW since she has government protecting her. Thus all POW rights should be in void.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

The OotBK is not recognized by Britannia as a nation. The only reason why Britannia doesn't go there right now is because they are under the protection of the Chinese government. Seeing as the OotBk are only allies with Chinese Fed. and not citizens makes Kallen not a POW since she has government protecting her. Thus all POW rights should be in void.

Stop spewing nonsense, once the entire world stage begins to make treaties with the Order under pretense of diplomacy with the United States of Japan, then they become a internationally recognized country. Britannia has to recognize them unless they want to stir needless trouble over a formality. Not to mention that Guilford himself treated the Order as PoWs when they weren't even a nation by any standards.

Her rights are there, they cannot be removed unless Britannia intends to declare war on the United States of Japan.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Var

Nothing I have said in relation to the facts we know about Refrain has been assumed. It has been shown, I am not drawing assumptions from my ass. We know that Refrain detaches someone from reality.
How? Episode 9: Refrain. Drugged up Japanese are completely unphased by Kallen's KMF bursting through a door and gunfire ringing through the facility. Completely unphased. They continued living out their memories. Kallen's mother gets tossed around in the palm of Kallen's KMF, again, completely unphased. No assumption made. It detaches you from reality.
Next, a drugged testimony holds as much water as a thimble designed for elephant needles. There is no time frame on what Refrain will recall. It could be yesterday or it could be twelve years ago. Lelouch can appear in her memories anywhere from two years ago to the day before. Kallen no longer treats Lelouch as Zero, her happiest moments with him are when he is Lelouch. She knew Lelouch in school, how will he know the difference?
Third, you are assuming that her short time with Lelouch has in some way surpassed her time with her beloved brother, mother, and father when her family was whole. There is no indication to this anywhere.

Where in there does Suzaku have any evidence that what she will say will be about Lelouch? About this time frame? About Zero? No where. All he has as a basis is that she's been seen with Zero. So has Kaguya, doesn't mean she knows.

My qualm with this action is not that Suzaku is doing it, my qualm is the utter idiocy behind it and the thought of even bothering to defend his actions if he does in fact attempt to drug her. This isn't some action that can garner anything but, at best, a testimony that's been twisted by a halucinigen. How is Suzaku going to use that evidence as justification? How will he make any use of it? He goes to arrest Lelouch under the pretense that someone he drugged told him? The amount of stupidity it requires to believe that he is doing this for answers baffles me. It is astronomical.

He is doing this out of spite, a vendeatta against Lelouch. Just as Lelouch went on a vendetta against the cult. The only difference is that one action, while making its culprit feel good about themselves, can be argued to serve the greater good, whereas the other only serves to make the culprit feel good and nothing more.

I gotta believe if Suzaku is unveiling a dose of refrain and suggesting it is a truth serum there may be more to this than "OMGBBQ I hate Suzaku so what he's saying is some dumb$hit..." Furthermore in the context of the situation given I am only speculating what could occur given the circumstances..I have repeatedly said that I'm not sure what Suzaku is up to and if it is a real threat or a psychological play, but given the set-up it is more than logical for me to surmise that the writers are setting up a plausible scenario rather than just pi$$ing you off because anything Suzaku does has to be weighted down with a 10-ton feather of "because he pi$$es me off" doubt...

You are assuming you know more than has potentially been explained...So what if Lulu cuts her mom and dad in the check-out line of f*cked-up refrain memories?? In a show where 1 million people put on Zero costumes and Rooms-to-Go sets up Lulu's study in the middle of the desert, excuse me if I'm going off the deep-end by suggesting that Kallen in a f*cked-up, drugged-up state might infer something about Zero's identity...Is that more out of bounds than the $hitload of obtuse scenarios this show has showered the audience with for dramatic effect?? I'm just not being as dismissive as you because it would not shock me in the least if the writers simply made her have a Lulu memory as to fit the modus operandi of the story at this point...A thousand pardons if I don't just see it as Suzaku's a b!tch so the entire basis of analyzing this scenario gets thrown outta the window for me...

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by Var

Stop spewing nonsense, once the entire world stage begins to make treaties with the Order under pretense of diplomacy with the United States of Japan, then they become a internationally recognized country. Britannia has to recognize them unless they want to stir needless trouble over a formality. Not to mention that Guilford himself treated the Order as PoWs when they weren't even a nation by any standards.

Her rights are there, they cannot be removed unless Britannia intends to declare war on the United States of Japan.

I think war has been declared already on the "United States of Japan" once Lelouch started his little rebellion in AREA 11. Trouble has already been stirred. Britannia isn't at war with China tho which is why they respect its intentions to provide political refuge to the exiled OotBK. However, seeing as Lelouch is raising an army in Asia, I see that ending soon. Of course the the OotBK will break this cold war Britannia is having with China by trying to reclaim Japan and make an all out war. But yeah, just because they're making alliances doesn't mean they're a country. It's only "spewing nonsense" when the political technicalities are used against them. Also when did Guilford ever treat the OothBK as POWs? when he was about to execute them? Yeah...maybe leniencies just change...

[bladeofdarkness]

treaties and conventions dont work that way
signing it doesnt mean that once you sign it the other guy cant abuse your POWs
when you sign them then it means YOU are saying that YOU will follow them when dealing with POWs in general
it doesnt matter if the other side signed them
its not a contract where you need both sides to sign (if it did then newer states couldnt join once it was writen)
even if the other side hasnt signed the treaties you stilll have to follow the treaties when dealing with his sides POWs

[Aporia]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Actually, why doesn't she just break the little glass containing the refrain. That's certainly easier than trying to overpower someone and escape from an enemy facility. Just break the little bottle.

Ah! One thing in the whole mess I think I have an answer to. It appears that Refrain is absorbed through the skin, check out the "injector" <-- no needle. I notice those things because I... don't ... like ... needles. At all.

But that does lead to a different hypothetical scenario that would be kinda neat: In the struggle to avoid the drug the bottles break, and they both start wandering around in their respective pasts. What would happen to a Knight who's doped up on Refrain? I'd like to know...


In other speculations (and pardon me if this showed up somewhere 20 pages back) bets on Rolo's geass going super-powered LL / Mao style? I'm thinking he dies from the plot device and not from the bomb.


EDIT: Also, my hunt for a Kallen happy memory is going worse than I imagined. No wonder the smile seemed so unnatural. I also noticed that she has the distinction of piloting a Knightmare that seems purpose-built to kill pilots. Has anyone made anything out of this yet? I know it's been modded in R2 but for a long time she's been piloting a pretty vicious machine.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

treaties and conventions dont work that way
signing it doesnt mean that once you sign it the other guy cant abuse your POWs
when you sign them then it means YOU are saying that YOU will follow them when dealing with POWs in general
it doesnt matter if the other side signed them
its not a contract where you need both sides to sign (if it did then newer states couldnt join once it was writen)
even if the other side hasnt signed the treaties you stilll have to follow the treaties when dealing with his sides POWs

Uh I'm kinda confused Britannia didn't sign any treaty. Which sides are you talking about?

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Var

Stop spewing nonsense, once the entire world stage begins to make treaties with the Order under pretense of diplomacy with the United States of Japan, then they become a internationally recognized country. Britannia has to recognize them unless they want to stir needless trouble over a formality. Not to mention that Guilford himself treated the Order as PoWs when they weren't even a nation by any standards.

Her rights are there, they cannot be removed unless Britannia intends to declare war on the United States of Japan.

Depending on the treaties that Britannia would have signed prior to this they may be still have to contend with whatever standards that have been set (if it also includes nations that didn't sign the thing either).

Though one thing I should point out though with Kallen is that she was originally a britannian citizen. Therefore she is considered at most a traitor to her country which puts her in a different situation compared to say if Tamaki was captured.

Uh I'm kinda confused Britannia didn't sign any treaty. Which sides are you talking about?

It's naturally assumed given the standards that Britannia has been following (which everyone has already given examples).

Being a country that's existed for some time there's no way it couldn't have already signed international treaties regarding terrorities, trading, and POWs in war times.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Aporia

Ah! One thing in the whole mess I think I have an answer to. It appears that Refrain is absorbed through the skin, check out the "injector" <-- no needle. I notice those things because I... don't ... like ... needles. At all.

If it were that easy, it wouldn't need an injector. Also, the needle is probably hidden inside the injector, hence the trigger setup.

[Sports72Xtrm]

It's naturally assumed given the standards that Britannia has been following (which everyone has already given examples).

Being a country that's existed for some time there's no way it couldn't have already signed international treaties regarding terrorities, trading, and POWs in war times.

Yeah well they might have signed treaties with China but not Japan/OotBK. That's what I'm saying, that the OotBK is not a Chinese soldier. China was the one that brought Kallen to Britannia in the first place. And even if they were recognized as a POW, the OotBK went on a mass murdering killing spree which is a Crime against Humanity. They were unarmed civilians who did not engange in hostilities. Crime against humanities defined as: "Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war, or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated".

[Kenu]

The wait for Code Geass each week seems like an eternity..

[Aporia]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

If it were that easy, it wouldn't need an injector. Also, the needle is probably hidden inside the injector, hence the trigger setup.

That's why "injector" was in quotes and I said it "appears". I disagree with it probably being hidden because big vicious needles help make drugs look scary but, at this point, we'd have to ask the script writers. Or maybe we'll be (un)lucky enough to find out in a few days.

[Verist]

Originally Posted by Kenu

The wait for Code Geass each week seems like an eternity..

That's the truth

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm

Yeah well they might have signed treaties with China but not Japan/OotBK. That's what I'm saying, that the OotBK is not a Chinese soldier. China was the one that brought Kallen to Britannia in the first place. And even if they were recognized as a POW, the OotBK went on a mass murdering killing spree which is a Crime against Humanity. They were unarmed civilians who did not engange in hostilities. Crime against humanities defined as: "Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war, or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated".

you dont sign it with someone or in relation to someone
you sign it yourself and by doing it you are declaring that you will apply it to others
you dont get to state who you will and wont apply it to
and it doesnt require that the other guy signs it
and as far as what the OOBK did this ep
no one knows about it since it was a top secret cult

besides the term terrorist isnt really a legal deffinition
the OOBK even if the britannana empire doesnt like them are gurrilas
their memebrs wear uniforms and have a command stracture
their for they are intitaled to the same treatment as normal soldiers when captured
if they didnt have that they would be illegal enemy combatents and the conventions wouldnt apply to them
under these condition then
captain kallen kozuki
commander of zero squad
who is under the direct and official command of zero
is a POW

[Sports72Xtrm]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

you dont sign it with someone or in relation to someone
you sign it yourself and by doing it you are declaring that you will apply it to others
you dont get to state who you will and wont apply it to
and it doesnt require that the other guy signs it
and as far as what the OOBK did this ep
no one knows about it since it was a top secret cult

besides the term terrorist isnt really a legal deffinition
the OOBK even if the britannana empire doesnt like them are gurrilas
their memebrs wear uniforms and have a command stracture
their for they are intitaled to the same treatment as normal soldiers when captured
if they didnt have that they would be illegal enemy combatents and the conventions wouldnt apply to them
under these condition then
captain kallen kozuki
commander of zero squad
who is under the direct and official command of zero
is a POW

This is exactly why the whole POW thing doesn't work. OotBK only follow rules they want follow but when they break some they get off scott free. It's really hypocritical. If OotBK gets away with breaking the rules why shouldn't Brittania? Whatever, Suzaku's gonna do what he needs to do to stop this mess.

[morbosfist]

How the Black Knights act is inconsequential. How Britannia acts is what matters, and they are obligated to abide by the standards which they have agreed to.

[Aquaman OS]

Ah the double standards of Geass. I freaking hate them. The the Order can do whatever the heck it feels like and get treated fine cause they're the Order?

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Ah the double standards of Geass. I freaking hate them. The the Order can do whatever the heck it feels like and get treated fine cause they're the Order?

The BK weren't an international political entity until recently. Britannia has always been so. They have to follow rules. Even Romeyer knows that, she brought up articles of law that allowed what Zero was intending to do in Turn 8. Even back then, Suzaku was fiercely against anything that would get Zero out of his hands, even abiding laws.