2010-09-13, 15:07 | Link #1301 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Yeah the problem is:
The door and the windows were locked from the inside Which is why I don't understand. Even supposing they died in a different place, I still don't understand how does this affect our closed room.
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2010-09-13, 15:21 | Link #1302 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Considering my argument before... Maybe that line is just saying that the door's hand-operable lock is on the inside, like the windows? "It's locked, and you can't unlock it from outside without a key"? That would explain why Beato kept going on about the keys afterward.
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2010-09-13, 15:36 | Link #1304 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Well, there was this about EP3:
George did not go down the guesthouse staircase. All doors and windows leading to the outside were locked from the inside. Furthermore, it is impossible to lock any of these from the outside. If it was about process and not state, I think the second statement there wouldn't have been necessary, at least to counter Battler's argument at the time.
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2010-09-13, 15:46 | Link #1305 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Just a thought. But could the place Kumasawa and Nanjo are lying outside be near Natsuhi's window? In other words could they have been killed in Natsuhi's room originally and thrown out into courtyard through the second floor window? Then someone inside proceeded to lock it?
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2010-09-13, 15:47 | Link #1306 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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So in the end someone must have been inside when the room was locked.
And therefore whether there are corpses outside or not it's really not much relevant. Quote:
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2010-09-13, 15:48 | Link #1307 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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It's a unique problem of doors, generally. A window is almost always lockable only from inside (else it would be of little use). A door, however, is very explicitly designed to be locked from either direction. A truly classic closed room necessitates some other reason why the door could not have been closed from outside (eyewitnesses, the key is inside the room, etc.). Technically speaking, a merely perceived locking from inside is just a state, not a process... but I have no idea if the author intended that.
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2010-09-13, 15:51 | Link #1308 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Oh, well. Though it seems useless, I'll play a little. I like Genji, since it's good for the culprit to be alive.
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Now let's define that "fake master key" you want to use so much. It's some object, visually indistinguishable from the real master key, but without the properties of one, correct? Because if it can be used as a master key it should be counted as such. And if it's visually distinguishable, Battler would have noticed this. "Just like usual" closed room definition implies that the door can't be opened with anything except the master keys and the individual key. Now, you're saying that the culprit returned the 5th master key to Rosa. Why would he need to do this, except to circumvent some red text stated in metaworld? There is absolutely no reason for the culprit to return the real master key, because all five objects, resembling known master keys, were already in Rosa's possession and she won't give anyone a permission to check them anyway. |
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2010-09-13, 15:53 | Link #1309 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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So "locked from inside" can only mean that it was locked from inside.
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2010-09-13, 16:55 | Link #1310 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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2010-09-13, 17:02 | Link #1311 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Is it possible there's a timing trick here? For instance, the victims had locked the room from the inside to create a closed room. However, the culprit later unlocked it from the outside to kill them and then relocked it the same way.
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2010-09-13, 18:00 | Link #1312 | ||||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Also, there is certainly a reason why the culprit would want to return the real master key. Take the premise that Piece Battler is the detective of this game, and the target of the fake murder illusions in it. Assuming Rosa is involved in this plan, then she'd want to help preserve the illusions, which means that she has to a) stay in character and b) not do anything that would cause Battler to suspect a human culprit. Battler is a mystery expert. He'd be unlikely to pay close attention to the keys early on, but after the discovery of Natsuhi's (fake) locked room he could certainly be expected to think of a fake master key and want to inspect Rosa's collection up close. Due to Rosa's established character of accusing the servants whenever possible, she could hardly go against this suggestion, and wouldn't want to anyway because it would damage the locked room illusion. However, if the real master key can be used for whatever purpose and then delivered to Rosa before Natsuhi's closed room is discovered, then Battler won't notice anything even if he inspects all of the master keys side by side. This prevents him from tracing the fake key back to the culprit.
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2010-09-13, 18:11 | Link #1313 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I might be wrong here, but I want to trust that Beatrice created tricks only during the exposition of the riddles, and she used reds to make Battler keep thinking about the real solution rather than let him settle on a false theory.
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2010-09-13, 19:34 | Link #1314 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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The locked room that has the reference Will uses in Umineko has this following solution:
Spoiler:
If Ryuukishi followed the murder to the letter, then the only possible culprit would be George, with Shannon as an accomplice. Solving this murder that way would help Battler as it would be impossible to hide from the truth(George/Shannon being the killers) without insane logic. But I don't think he did. I just think he used the idea of a coffin, not the entire murder. Although he might have copied the "soul" of the trick, if you know what I mean. |
2010-09-13, 19:48 | Link #1315 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Isn't that... a sortof remote murder?
I suppose there's the question of when a murder is commited. I mean, if someone is stabbed, the culprit runs off, and they die an hour later, the murder occured at the time of the attack. Same goes if the culprit stabs the victim and they die after two weeks. Which allows for some interesting moves, I guess. You can give someone a slow acting poison, have them fake their deaths somewhere else, then when they die then, you can still claim to have "been in the same room while they were murdered". And that they were "Dead at the time of discovery", that "The death was a homicide", that "noone is hiding in the room" and so on. While this works for a few things, it seems kindof... cheap, heh. |
2010-09-13, 19:59 | Link #1316 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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It works much better for a traditional mystery novel than for a game like Umineko, which is why I don't think Ryuukishi followed the trick to the letter.
edit: And there is the mortem trick in the same novel, that also created a "coffin" but...yeah. |
2010-09-13, 21:29 | Link #1317 | |||
Senior Member
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2010-09-14, 04:07 | Link #1318 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Even if you think a riddle you propose is easy...it might be difficult for the person trying to solve it. Quote:
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2010-09-14, 05:12 | Link #1319 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Uh... no. If you read the Tea parties with Lambda in them, and how she handles the GM position in episode 5 you'll know that it's Lambda's style to deny possibilities like that not Beato's. Beato does that to an extent, but not the way LD does. Beato constantly cuts corners and will often deliberately leave possibilities open for Battler, refusing to repeat something, even when leaving open those possibilities aren't favorable to him and will deliberately make moves that are disadvantageous to herself depending on the situation. Lambdadelta gets extremely annoyed at that unpredictable part of Beato's style, and she makes this very clear in the episode 4 tea party, through her conversation with Bern, and when she makes the moves Beato could have made, but didn't.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-09-14 at 05:32. |
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