Heavy Object - Old Anime Discussion Thread

[Tenzen12]

That's not exclusive...

[Heir of the Void]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

That's not exclusive...

I suspect that he saw something about how humanoid combat machines are impractical, then proceeded to create a much greater abomination in the process of 'fixing' it.

For all intents and purposes, Heavy Object is a Super Robot show. The Objects are the be-all and end-all of warfare, steamroll internal logic failures with author fiat rather than engineering problems, and are generally based around a single gimmick.

Part of the real robot concept is Mecha as part of a military force; there is no military here. There are Objects and Object pit crews who like to play solider. There is no use of combined arms, because Objects are all that matters, and there is not use of global or theater strategy, and the only people who try any sort of political maneuvering most likely lack the mental facilities to breath without assistance.

The world exists in a state of artificially suspended conflict, but thus far this is used as a justification to have fights whenever necessary rather than as a potentially fascinating element of the setting.

In terms of tone, it feels schizophrenic. A lot of the above points would be of minor concern in a comedy, but it seems like Object takes itself way too serious for that... sixty percent of the time?

However, I plan to continue watching, because it manages to make you not care about its lack of logic enough to watch comfortably, but without taking away the fun of watching a train wreck in progress, with is actually pretty impressive.

[Anh_Minh]

So.. Gundam and Macross have not only humanoid mecha, but flying transforming humanoid mecha, not to mention melee combat and god knows what else, but somehow Heavy Object is the greater abomination?

[Marcus H.]

^ Hey, you forgot TTGL with it's galaxy-throwing nonsense.

[Heir of the Void]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

So.. Gundam and Macross have not only humanoid mecha, but flying transforming humanoid mecha, not to mention melee combat and god knows what else, but somehow Heavy Object is the greater abomination?

Who had a transforming suit in the One Year War? I don't recall the 8th MS team running into anything like that...

Flight can be fine, assuming it's handled reasonably in-universe, i.e. Muv Luv Alternative.

And what the hell gave you the idea that a show with "Super Dimension Fortress" in the name would be anything close to what I was talking about? I have not watched everything in the franchise, but what I have seen most certainly isn't.

In any, Object is especially because it lacks internal logic. We are given no explanation for how Objects rape physics to the extend they do, nor for why nothing else can be built with the same technology. There is plenty more to say, but that would be moving into novel territory.

[Heir of the Void]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

^ Hey, you forgot TTGL with it's galaxy-throwing nonsense.

TTGL is... I think the best interpenetration is a retelling of the Mecha genre. And what the hell made you think it's anything other than pure Super Robot goodness? It checks every item on the list, but makes it work wonderfully.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Heir of the Void

Who had a transforming suit in the One Year War? I don't recall the 8th MS team running into anything like that...

Flight can be fine, assuming it's handled reasonably in-universe, i.e. Muv Luv Alternative.

And what the hell gave you the idea that a show with "Super Dimension Fortress" in the name would be anything close to what I was talking about? I have not watched everything in the franchise, but what I have seen most certainly isn't.

In any, Object is especially because it lacks internal logic. We are given no explanation for how Objects rape physics to the extend they do, nor for why nothing else can be built with the same technology. There is plenty more to say, but that would be moving into novel territory.

Now you're just picking and choosing what a true "real mecha" series is with what you deem as suitable physic breaking.

Do you need some shining light particle engine to suddenly deem it acceptable physics breaking?

Really at the end of the day most people decide whether something is "Real Mecha", would come down to it's logistics and whether it breaks physical space (like the drill in TTGL, pulling from hammer space etc)

EDIT: Oh and power source I suppose.

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

So.. Gundam and Macross have not only humanoid mecha, but flying transforming humanoid mecha, not to mention melee combat and god knows what else, but somehow Heavy Object is the greater abomination?

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

^ Hey, you forgot TTGL with it's galaxy-throwing nonsense.

And yet G Reconquista takes the cake as the most WTF mecha anime i've seen in my life to the point that i'm still trying to figure out what the hell happened.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

So.. Gundam and Macross have not only humanoid mecha, but flying transforming humanoid mecha, not to mention melee combat and god knows what else, but somehow Heavy Object is the greater abomination?

Yes, you said it right. I am glad you get it.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Such hyperbole over a non traditional mecha design.

[wavehawk]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Kamachi is just trying to do a different take with the genre in his own way.

- Well, the other possibility is that Kamachi's just been playing too much Metal Gear...

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Such hyperbole over a non traditional mecha design.

Well, it wasn't me who called it abomination, but it's really hard disagree with such description and there is no reason to even try...

[Patriot's Blade]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

So.. Gundam and Macross have not only humanoid mecha, but flying transforming humanoid mecha, not to mention melee combat and god knows what else, but somehow Heavy Object is the greater abomination?

in Gundam to be fair, has something that the Objects uncannily resembled during the One Year War era, Zeon's Luna Tanks, down to sphere shaped body, though smaller than an Object but still larger than a Mobile Suit but could also fly due to its moon based usage, this came before the far more effective Mobile Armors which are Gundam's equivalent of Objects

[Heir of the Void]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Now you're just picking and choosing what a true "real mecha" series is with what you deem as suitable physic breaking.

Do you need some shining light particle engine to suddenly deem it acceptable physics breaking?

Really at the end of the day most people decide whether something is "Real Mecha", would come down to it's logistics and whether it breaks physical space (like the drill in TTGL, pulling from hammer space etc)

EDIT: Oh and power source I suppose.

Real Robot Genre. Not real mecha. Maybe if you'd read my post...

And yes, more Gundam series than not tend to dirft into super robot territory (Gundam Wing, for example). Most OYW stuff, exempting the first TV show, are Real Robot, at least with respect to the main characters (that's what I really liked about Aldnoah; it was the main characters with Zakus who had to take down Gundams). But then, I usually drop those pretty quickly. When I say real robot, VOTOMS would be the quintessential example.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Heir of the Void

Real Robot Genre. Not real mecha. Maybe if you'd read my post...

And yes, more Gundam series than not tend to dirft into super robot territory (Gundam Wing, for example). Most OYW stuff, exempting the first TV show, are Real Robot, at least with respect to the main characters (that's what I really liked about Aldnoah; it was the main characters with Zakus who had to take down Gundams). But then, I usually drop those pretty quickly. When I say real robot, VOTOMS would be the quintessential example.

So what bothers you if that there aren't legions of standardized, mass produced Objects. And you feel compelled to remind us that HO isn't the show you wanted it to be on every occasion. That it isn't hard SF (though it never pretended to be) let alone some nostradamus prophecy of the actual future. That it's very far from some ideal that exists only in your head, because clearly, every anime should be made to your own personal specifications.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Such hyperbole over a non traditional mecha design.

Yeah, I don't know what their problem is either. Why they forgive so much if a show has humanoid mechas, and so little when it's big spheres with canons stuck on.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah, I don't know what their problem is either. Why they forgive so much if a show has humanoid mechas, and so little when it's bit spheres with canons stuck on.

I think it's because of how nontraditional the show is- A non pilot MC, a non super prototype protagonist mecha, a non traditional mecha design. It takes a longer time to wrap your heads around.

You know, I just realized- You know what would be the humanoid equivalent to the Objects? The Jaegers from Pacific Rim. Huge, custom designed, pilot sensitive, technologically advanced machines.

And we all know how those were received.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah, I don't know what their problem is either. Why they forgive so much if a show has humanoid mechas, and so little when it's big spheres with canons stuck on.

I think it might be the same reason people generally find fights with swords, spears, martial arts more exciting than a generic shootout.

People like exotic things.

[Heir of the Void]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I think it's because of how nontraditional the show is- A non pilot MC, a non super prototype protagonist mecha, a non traditional mecha design. It takes a longer time to wrap your heads around.

You know, I just realized- You know what would be the humanoid equivalent to the Objects? The Jaegers from Pacific Rim. Huge, custom designed, pilot sensitive, technologically advanced machines.

And we all know how those were received.

No, none of that would bother me if the show had internal logic. The Object are SPESHUL, and the world bends over backwards to ensure it stays that way. I couldn't care less about the design, and I prefer the non-super-prototype protagonist.

And Pacific Rim had plenty of failings, but the Jeagers were customized, not uniqure. If, of the four machines in the show, one was humanoid, one was a feline quadruped, one was a giant robot bird, and one was an octopus, the comparison (in that respect) would be better.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

So what bothers you if that there aren't legions of standardized, mass produced Objects. And you feel compelled to remind us that HO isn't the show you wanted it to be on every occasion. That it isn't hard SF (though it never pretended to be) let alone some nostradamus prophecy of the actual future. That it's very far from some ideal that exists only in your head, because clearly, every anime should be made to your own personal specifications.


Yeah, I don't know what their problem is either. Why they forgive so much if a show has humanoid mechas, and so little when it's big spheres with canons stuck on.

No, what bothers me is the fact that Object designers aren't allowed to have an IQ above 90. In the show's own logic, most of the Objects are based around pretty stupid concepts. Like the Tri-Core.

I would forgive the gunballs if they made sense. They don't, from either a Watsonian or Doylist perspective.

I'm not arguing for mass-produced legions, but that would be preferable to snowflakes. If you actually understood warship class systems, maybe you'd know what I'm talking about.

Also, as for sci-fi, I'd say it makes a half-assed attempt to be hard SF. Doped steel armor rather than nanomaterials, for example, and the use of the comically absurd electrostatic levitation system to avoid gravatics, give me a strong impression that it's trying to pretend to be realistic. I never said I was looking for speculative fiction, and frankly I'd appreciate if I was allowed to frame my own arguments. Telling me what claims I'm making and then leaving me in a position to have to make an untenable defense or kick out of them and look foolish is almost as effective as it is puerlie.

Also, going forward, if before we make the assumption that I hold a given franchise as an example of 'good' science fiction, we present an explanation as to why this is the case beyond simple popularity? While I am rather accustomed to having my opinions declared by outside parties, I do find it somewhat irritating and would appreciate if we could hold ourselves to somewhat higher rhetorical standards.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Heir of the Void

No, none of that would bother me if the show had internal logic. The Object are SPESHUL, and the world bends over backwards to ensure it stays that way. I couldn't care less about the design, and I prefer the non-super-prototype protagonist.

We have this since the beginning. Objects as a platform provides defense, firepower and enough mobility. A 3-in-1 package, all of this is made possible because of it's large physical size which houses a reactor. The spherical shape is to account for the Onion style design.

Originally Posted by Heir of the Void

And Pacific Rim had plenty of failings, but the Jeagers were customized, not uniqure. If, of the four machines in the show, one was humanoid, one was a feline quadruped, one was a giant robot bird, and one was an octopus, the comparison (in that respect) would be better.

Not really, if the Jaegers' defining feature is the bipedal design, the Object's defining feature is it's spherical body. So it's definitely not as drastic as having a bird and octopus which deviates from the main bipedal design.

Originally Posted by Heir of the Void

No, what bothers me is the fact that Object designers aren't allowed to have an IQ above 90. In the show's own logic, most of the Objects are based around pretty stupid concepts. Like the Tri-Core.

If all mechas were suppose to be based around absolute practical concepts, we won't have any mechas ever, I don't see what makes THIS show of all mecha shows suddenly breaking all taboos.

Originally Posted by Heir of the Void

Also, as for sci-fi, I'd say it makes a half-assed attempt to be hard SF. Doped steel armor rather than nanomaterials, for example, and the use of the comically absurd electrostatic levitation system to avoid gravatics, give me a strong impression that it's trying to pretend to be realistic.

So... Just like most other real mecha series.

[chaos_animagic]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

^ Hey, you forgot TTGL with it's galaxy-throwing nonsense.

TTGL is mecha within mecha within mecha within mecha within a head

Now thinks what that'll be like with Objects..

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Answer:

Spoiler:

an Ice Cream, Object ontop of Object ontop of Object