2010-07-07, 12:15 | Link #13261 |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Abstract tangent.
The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself, right? What logically follows is that whoever we see claiming Kanon's name is Kanon, as other people are not allowed to by the red. The red was given to dismiss the theory of "Kanon" as a title, after all. Now, the real question. Do we ever see Kanon "claim his name", that is, state that "I am Kanon" in one way or another, after his introduction?...
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2010-07-07, 12:16 | Link #13262 | |
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2010-07-07, 12:18 | Link #13263 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Did Kyrie really say so?
Anyway I think you misunderstood me. I was merely trying to define what is the requirements for a disguise to be used in a mystery novel without going against the 2nd rule. I didn't mean to say that Battler didn't see Beatrice, nor that there doesn't need to be a good reason for him to think she was Beatrice. on Kanon Yes it's quite blatantly a shkanon denying red, considering that most theories at the time assumed that Kanon existed but died and was impersonated by Shannon, similar to what happens in Psycho or Code Veronica. Of course recently this red has been bypassed by claiming that in this game "Kanon" is no one else but Shannon. If this reasoning isn't valid then Ghosterika is false as well, because Erika Furudo really exists in the world and it was stated in red that All names refer only to the actual people!! Of course it is unthinkable that both theories are wrong, so we need to accept this reasoning as valid, even if it stinks...
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2010-07-07, 12:23 | Link #13264 |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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I'm not sure he actually does that, either. He executes orders given "to Kanon", he reacts to lines addressed to Kanon, but these are not really claiming his name, as they do not stop anyone else from doing so. He does not answer affirmatively to statements like "Are you Kanon?" often either, which definitely would be "claiming name".
No, not Shkanon. ...Jessinon.
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2010-07-07, 12:32 | Link #13265 |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Why not, actually.
Was the corpse discovered in Ep2 really identified as Jessica? That is, did anyone turn her over, look at her face, or did they just leave her lying down on that very face? That's how Kanon could die in this room with no body to be found and Jessica would still be "also included".
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2010-07-07, 12:37 | Link #13266 | |
Shall we do it?
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Maybe Kanon underwent magic-in-a-second surgery.
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2010-07-07, 13:16 | Link #13267 | |
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Maybe I am over-thinking this? And yes, I recall Kyrie saying something to that effect, Jan-Poo. However, even if I am right it falls under Knox's 9th.
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2010-07-07, 13:30 | Link #13268 | |
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Location: In a badly written story.
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But while Kanon may in fact be dead for much of the time he is seen on screen (he can't never have existed though, since he definitely introduces himself to Battler) if such an interpretation is correct, that does not necessarily mean it's Shannon who is posing as him.
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2010-07-07, 13:37 | Link #13269 | ||
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2010-07-07, 13:48 | Link #13270 |
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Let's see, let's see, statements I would ask the witch side to repeat in red...
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2010-07-07, 13:50 | Link #13271 | |
Shall we do it?
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Just to add things.
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2010-07-07, 14:03 | Link #13273 | |
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I got some. The cake is a lie. The number of people on the island refer to the number of living, human bodies on the island at the start of the game and never changes. The culprit's motive for killing is Battler's sin. The portrait and epitaph were put up after Kinzo had died. Dr. Nanjo refers to that person and never an impersonator. The culprit did not set any sort of explosive device on the island.
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2010-07-07, 14:04 | Link #13274 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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NOTE: Actually using this logic a Battler disguise is possible from EP2 on ironically. Since Rosa is suspicious of one. This is kind of weird becuase how Dlanor seems to be interpreting Knox here is very different from how it is in decalouge itself. Where for a disguise to work you need a lot training in acting, but since Jessica's on stage performance doesn't count as a hint by itself then maybe Umineko doesn't use that interpretation.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-07 at 14:14. |
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2010-07-07, 14:16 | Link #13275 | |
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There is only one Ushiromiya Battler who participates in this game.
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2010-07-07, 14:20 | Link #13276 | ||||||||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Nothing outside the island can interfere. But it wasn't extended to the whole game nor to any game. Quote:
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followed by "The one I've always known as Kinzo Ushiromiya is indeed Kinzo Ushiromiya." You never know... This kind of request could be repeated for every single character. The witch could propose an alternative definition, but she'd be forced to give one in order to avoid seeing her reds being countered with: Even if you say that Jessica died, it doesn't mean that the Jessica I know died. Somehow this issue was addressed in EP6, but apparently the wording still leaves some doubts. Quote:
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As for the rest the witch would probably refuse. @smeckeldorf The cake is a lie. <- there is no need for confirmations! This is the third universal truth after death and taxes The number of people on the island refer to the number of living, human bodies on the island at the start of the game and never changes. <- no if you ask specifically for the number of living humans, the number cannot be fixed. The culprit's motive for killing is Battler's sin. <- interesting but there's no obligation to answer. The portrait and epitaph were put up after Kinzo had died. <- She will refuse. She has shown in the game that the contrary happened. Dr. Nanjo refers to that person and never an impersonator. <- This one works. But like in the case of Kinzo above I prefer this to be checked by including clear identifying elements. Of course you need to use a previously stated red about Nanjo to force the witch to answer. But there is one in EP3. The culprit did not set any sort of explosive device on the island. <- this maybe could be used in regards of the final riddle of EP4. But otherwise it wouldn't be answered. There is only one Ushiromiya Battler who participates in this game. <- This can work, in fact Tahillys used a theory based on second Battler in one of his videos.
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2010-07-07, 14:27 | Link #13277 |
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I'm counting on several of these being refused, actually. There are viable reasons why refusing might be disadvantageous in some circumstances, but if the witch side can't confirm in red (because it's not true), they have to refuse.
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2010-07-07, 14:37 | Link #13279 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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BTW do you think that in the last duel between Erika and Beatrice, the latter had to answer any repetition request provided she could do it?
Because if she didn't, then it would have been a tremendously unfair duel. Beatrice could simply refuse everything, or decide to refuse on purpose just one thing to lead Erika to believe she hit the nail.
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2010-07-07, 14:39 | Link #13280 | |
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