U.S. Politics Thread

[Seitsuki]

“Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”

I'm scarily finding this to be true. I used to think myself 'left' leaning on many issues, still am, and immediately dismissed 'right' dissent as bigotry/conspiracy/etc. But seeing the bullshit that is increasing coming out: institutionalised oppression, privilege, appropriation, patriarchy, it goes on...and the worst part is all the vocal 'activists' spreading misinformation, spreading hate, just spreading. Then again meanwhile the other side hasn't exactly gone up in my opinion either.

I guess what I mean is while those heady honeymoon days of Yes We Can vs Bush's legacy were over long ago it's only now really sinking in for me that both sides still have a lot of problems.

[Netto Azure]

I don't really buy into this "both sides do it" mantra that is becoming more popular recently. To me it appears that it's always the loudest and most extreme that gets attention and yet we do not take into account that there are people who do good and do not resort to simple name calling or ad hominem attacks.

Still humans are irrational and are willing to internalize contradictions to fit issues into our worldview so a straightforward discussion of the issues either devolves into circular reasoning or emotional appeals. So rational discussion is hard to have.

That point made, these past 4 years have been very, very productive for people who believe in limited government and austerity. For all the discussion of gridlock in Congress, it has resulted in the lowest deficit in many years, highest stock market rallies and a significant reduction in all 3 levels of US government with sequestration in the federal level, and significant cutbacks in state and local levels.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

I'm scarily finding this to be true. I used to think myself 'left' leaning on many issues, still am, and immediately dismissed 'right' dissent as bigotry/conspiracy/etc. But seeing the bullshit that is increasing coming out: institutionalised oppression, privilege, appropriation, patriarchy, it goes on...and the worst part is all the vocal 'activists' spreading misinformation, spreading hate, just spreading. Then again meanwhile the other side hasn't exactly gone up in my opinion either.

Then good thing I am not Caucasian. Because despite being a carnivore and pro-whaling and support GMO, I am never going to lean RIGHT.

[Urzu 7]

@Gundamfan: Yeah, the democratic party had bigots decades ago (lots of them), but wasn't it the case that in the 1960s, the democratic party reshaped and reformed, leading up to what it is today, and a lot of bigoted Americans ended up turning to the republican party?

No doubt plenty of liberals, democrats, etc. can be racial bigots too, but I've seen a lot of racial bigotry (and especially anti-gay bigotry) from a lot of right wingers. I mean, case in point, this tea party movement...I've seen a lot of bigotry from them. Heck, I've seen absolute blatant racism from the head of the tea party movement before (he ended up resigning).

Also, how many right wingers have the motto "don't feed the animals" when it comes to the issue of welfare and food stamps? That shit is straight up racist, and it is ironic, too, because less than 25% of those on food stamps are black, less than 25% of those on food stamps are Hispanic or Latino, and 48% of those on food stamps are white.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

@Gundamfan: Yeah, the democratic party had bigots decades ago (lots of them), but wasn't it the case that in the 1960s, the democratic party reshaped and reformed, leading up to what it is today, and a lot of bigoted Americans ended up turning to the republican party?

The "Progressives" are in BOTH parties (Neo-Liberals and Neo-Cons).
Both are racist and bigoted.
The difference is that the GOP is actually going through a "Ron/Rand" Paul revolution within itself right now and for now at least is the lesser of the two evils (and THEY ARE BOTH "evil" in my view).

No doubt plenty of liberals, democrats, etc. can be racial bigots too, but I've seen a lot of racial bigotry (and especially anti-gay bigotry) from a lot of right wingers. I mean, case in point, this tea party movement...I've seen a lot of bigotry from them. Heck, I've seen absolute blatant racism from the head of the tea party movement before (he ended up resigning).

Bill Clinton did the same thing to Obama if you remember:

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/bi...-report-262595

Prominent members of the Democratic Party (including the VP) have said things that are NO different than what their "Progressive" GOP counterparts have said.

http://clashdaily.com/2014/04/9-raci...dia-forgotten/

Joe Biden saying some of the worst:

And let us not forget the comments that have been made by Democratic Nassau County, NY Legislator Ellen Birnbaum:

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-T...Racist-Remarks

Also, how many right wingers have the motto "don't feed the animals" when it comes to the issue of welfare and food stamps? That shit is straight up racist, and it is ironic, too, because less than 25% of those on food stamps are black, less than 25% of those on food stamps are Hispanic or Latino, and 48% of those on food stamps are white.

Again, you are looking at the minority of both parties.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...ite-democrats/

The GOP minority may hold the edge according to fivethirtyeight, but their article clearly demonstrates the reality that this minority in both parties is shrinking, and becoming less influencial and/or important. It's the same thing with abortion and other issues. Americans are moving away from the old ideas of "left" verses "right" in US politics and the results are very interesting.

As of 2012, this index stood at 27 percent for white Republicans and 19 percent for white Democrats. So there’s a partisan gap, although not as large of one as some political commentators might assert. There are white racists in both parties. By most questions, they represent a minority of white voters in both parties. They probably represent a slightly larger minority of white Republicans than white Democrats.

Fortunately, the expression of racism by whites toward blacks has decreased over time, and for Americans in both parties — at least, according to this survey. In 1990, the index of negative racial attitudes stood at 40 percent for white Democrats and 41 percent for white Republicans.

There hasn’t been much of an overall increase or decrease in the index since Obama took office. On average, between the 2004 and 2006 editions of the surveys — the last two before Obama was either a president or a candidate — the index of negative racial attitudes stood at 22 percent for white Democrats and 26 percent for white Republicans. Those values are within the margin of error for those in the 2010 and 2012 surveys.

If there’s a discouraging trend, it’s not so much that negative racial attitudes toward blacks have increased in these polls, but that they’ve failed to decrease under Obama, as they did so clearly for most of the past three decades.

To drive my point home, let me say that racism, bigotry, and other issues of that sort are hyped up by the media and distract from the real problems in this country.
Take gay marriage for example. Even though most of the bans were passed by voters in those states, the courts did their job and struck them down (wish they'd do that to gun control laws).
So all this hyperbole about how the GOP is going to get gays or force them back in the closet is all left-wing BS.
They cannot do so legally, and they will no longer be able to because the old guard is dying off and a new Ron/Rand Paul style GOP is forming that--at least thus far--is more concerned about the corporate attacks on our constitution than what people do privately in their bedrooms or private lives.

Meanwhile, the Dems are still stuck in the 1990s and haven't seemed to move into the 21st century yet and realize that issues such as gun control are NOT popular with most Americans.
The Dems here in Colorado have already learned that the hard way (recall elections) and unless there is massive voter fraud here (and there may be) the GOP will have control of this state again.

This whole message about the GOP or the Dems being racist is overblown. The real issue now is the new elitist attitude in both parties that is pitting the rich/wealthy against the poor in a society that is increasingly becoming like Mexico (and I mean totally corporate controlled: http://prospect.org/article/corporat...-north-america ).

I don't know how you feel about Minister like Louis Farrakhan (I have issues with him myself, especially his horrible racism) but he gets what is going on in America and why we are in deep trouble:

Racism is a tool, it is intended to divide us to keep us from seeing the real issues. That issue being that we need to reign in the power of the corporations that own this government. Eisenhower warned us about this before he left office and we can clearly see how what he called the Military Industrial Complex took control-- alongside or in concert with--the international banking cartels.

In short, we need a redistribution of power, and that STARTS with two things that need to change.
First, control of the money needs to go back into the treasury and the Federal Reserve needs to be abolished.

Secondly, the right to have military arms (small arms, like an AR-15, AK, etc.) made not just by private sources, but by national armories like the old Springfield Armory, needs to be restored in all states and mandatory CMP training imposed on those who wish to own a military weapon.

Gun control has always been a very racist issue and the Progressives have been at the forefront of pushing for it since the beginning (in both parties).

An older article, but still a good one due to its citations:
http://www.constitution.org/cmt/cramer/racist_roots.htm

Both parties commit racist acts, and of the two, the Democrats have been worse over time due in part to gun control, among other issues (Jim Crow laws, etc). LBJ only supported the Civil Rights Act because he thought he'd have them voting Democrat for years afterwards.

The alleged "exact" quote is this:

Lyndon Baines Johnson 1963... "These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we've got to do something about this, we've got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference... I'll have them niggers voting Democratic for the next two hundred years".

While it is confirmed that LBJ said something to this effect to the two Southern governors he was speaking to, it has not been confirmed that this is verbatim his words.
But he was a flaming bigot and racist.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/lyndon-jo...-rights-racism

Overall, racism isn't as important as the race-baiters, media, and political strategists try to make it out to be these days.
It is more of a club used to demonize the GOP, Tea Party, Ron Paul, or whoever the left wishes to cut down politically.

[Irenicus]

The echo chamber is inspiring to see in action. Al Jazeera America published a thoroughly researched, well-developed piece of investigative journalism in the best traditions of that hallowed field -- when journalism means you stand for something and fight for it with truth and principles and great, authoritative writing. Journalists win Pulitzers with that kind of work, because to investigate, to reveal the truth, to bring to light grave dishonesties are the kind of universally admired work considered to be the pinnacle of the journalistic profession.

And then GundamFan promptly dismisses it with massive right wing nutjob copypastas, arguments built more on quantity of words, often curiously corrupted from their generally understood meaning in wider society (see his particularly amusing use of "progressive" as a catch-all insult), than quality of evidence.

While Netto Azure, though being in New Zealand, slips very easily into the old American political platitude about both sides being the same and equally evil. 'tis a wonderfully comfortable platitude that lends oneself to a very gratifying sense of moral superiority while avoiding the hard task of having to understand what's really at hand, then stand for it.

Great.

And here I am sitting at 2:00 AM trying to do homework on which random judge I should be voting for, reading up on newspaper opinions and the like. I never quite cared for voting for judges, but I have to now because there are massive dirty money flooding into this formerly genteel field to gain political advantage by any means necessary -- demonstrated wonderfully by the Al Jazeera revelation. Justices across the country, used to quiet electoral seasons, fair competition between two highly qualified candidates or even unopposed seats, and the occasional chance to swat a dirty scandalous judge off the profession the electoral way, are being shocked into having to practically bloody their hands with electoral fundraising from law firms -- incidentally, their charges -- and deflecting slanders and mudslinging of unprecedented levels. A uniquely American idiocy, to have your justices available to buy for the price of a public sale. They thought elections would keep judges accountable and clean, oh, those Founding Fathers had no idea...

The least I could do is resist the destruction of American Democracy just for a little longer.

And then when it returns to being a place only for the white and rich and right and armed and moral and christian, I can legitimately say, fuck America, you piece of shit third world country, without feeling guilty about not trying to save it.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Americans are moving away from the old ideas of "left" verses "right"

.......

So all this hyperbole about how the GOP is going to get gays or force them back in the closet is all left-wing BS.

It is more of a club used to demonize the GOP, Tea Party, Ron Paul, or whoever the left wishes to cut down politically.

Yea, it would be more convincing if you actually act what you preach...

"This is not about left vs right, they both suck, but you know what, the left clearly suck more and i will say this multiple times even when I am trying to preach a different philosophy."

Such a nice speech to unite the people. I know you were only responding to urzu7, but you don't have to bite and jump back into the old LvsR fight. Just a suggestion.

And I am saying this as a pro-gun right libertarian and Ron Paul supporter.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

And then GundamFan promptly dismisses it with massive right wing nutjob copypastas, arguments built more on quantity of words, often curiously corrupted from their generally understood meaning in wider society (see his particularly amusing use of "progressive" as a catch-all insult), than quality of evidence.

The least I could do is resist the destruction of American Democracy just for a little longer.

And then when it returns to being a place only for the white and rich and right and armed and moral and christian, I can legitimately say, fuck America, you piece of shit third world country, without feeling guilty about not trying to save it.

Wow, you're actually trying to argue that an Arab-Propaganda "news" agency is telling the truth?
Brilliant.
I also love it when a leftist raises the charge of "right-wing conspiracy theory" (especially when Louis Farrakhan was the one talking about it, I didn't realize he was a "right-winger" ) and then goes on to attack the US and say "fuck America."
That's just choice.

And "Progressives" wonder why Americans are about to vote many of them out of office today.

Maybe some century they'll figure it out.

Originally Posted by maplehurry

Yea, it would be more convincing if you actually act what you preach...

"This is not about left vs right, they both suck, but you know what, the left clearly suck more and i will say this multiple times even when I am trying to preach a different philosophy."

Such a nice speech to unite the people. I know you were only responding to urzu7, but you don't have to bite and jump back into the old LvsR fight. Just a suggestion.

And I am saying this as a pro-gun right libertarian and Ron Paul supporter.

Wow, you twisted and spun what I said so badly that it took me a moment to decipher your gibberish.

You're a libertarian huh?
And you don't understand the very basic complaint of the Libertarian Party and/or Ron Paul?

That complaint is that government is TOO BIG, and TOO POWERFUL and it needs to be reigned in.
That means repealing gun control laws, that means stripping the budget down to basic needs of defense and infrastructure, that means ending the welfare state, repealing the "Great Society" and "New Deal" laws (yes the Civil Rights Act, Social Security, etc.), completely ending the Federal Reserve system and putting the US back on a Gold Standard, and a myriad of other things that make "Progressives" become raving loons because they so scared of life they can't handle it.

You need to come to grips with the fact that Libertarians will NEVER get along with "Progressives" since there are fundamental differences in ideology between them that will separate them permanently.
In short, Libertarians are Individualists, while "Progressives" are Collectivists.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...liberaltarian/

In fact, they are, in my view, diametrically opposed to each other. Thankfully the youth in the US are moving towards Libertarianism and away from so called "Progressivism" in the traditional US political sense of the term.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/ma...ived.html?_r=0

So perhaps I should clarify (for you) the point that you missed.
The old ideas of "left" verses "right" are changing and the racism, bigotry, etc of the "Progressives" that went with those ideas are dying in US society as a whole. Thus, both the rank-and-file members of the GOP and the Dems are not as racist as they once were and if the Ron/Rand Paul revolution continues to blossom within the GOP itself, then the Libertarians (like myself) will accomplish the current goal (to take over the leadership of the GOP, like the "Progressives" took over the leadership of the Dems).

Do you understand now?

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

I'm scarily finding this to be true. I used to think myself 'left' leaning on many issues, still am, and immediately dismissed 'right' dissent as bigotry/conspiracy/etc. But seeing the bullshit that is increasing coming out: institutionalised oppression, privilege, appropriation, patriarchy, it goes on...and the worst part is all the vocal 'activists' spreading misinformation, spreading hate, just spreading. Then again meanwhile the other side hasn't exactly gone up in my opinion either.

I guess what I mean is while those heady honeymoon days of Yes We Can vs Bush's legacy were over long ago it's only now really sinking in for me that both sides still have a lot of problems.

Never was a big fan of the quote even though it has roots in reality. But the context of it was very different and can be misunderstood. I think it's closer to say hardliners who believe in absolutes have no heart or brain. Obama and Bush were never opposites to begin with.

Dividing stances into solely left or right stances is an easy way to simplify matters and chop them up into little bits to feed the public. That is the greatest propaganda campaign of all-- getting people to support a different head of the same beast.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Wow, you twisted and spun what I said so badly that it took me a moment to decipher your gibberish.

You're a libertarian huh?
And you don't understand the very basic complaint of the Libertarian Party and/or Ron Paul?

That complaint is that government is TOO BIG, and TOO POWERFUL and it needs to be reigned in.
That means repealing ....

Thanks for being a mind-reader and making assumptions about me and informing me that the earth is not flat. How enlightening.

Well, maybe I too had made wrong assumption about you so it's "fair game", but let's not dwell on this any longer because it's pointless. Period.

You need to come to grips with the fact that Libertarians will NEVER get along with "Progressives" since there are fundamental differences in ideology between them that will separate them permanently.

Personally disagree. My parents are classical old school anti-gay conservative. I also have some friends who are leftists. I get along with them just fine. When I "judge" people, I look at them more than just their political position, as long as they are not extremists. I am a libertarian and my actual political position is no centrist, though I would admit that I sometimes give others an impression that I am a "centrist" even when I am actually not one. Even in one of Ayn Rand's novel, one of the mc was friend with a socialist and they respect each others.

Well, what I just said above is probably missing the point. When people get into a political debate, I obviously don't expect anyone to compromise their positions randomly.

So perhaps I should clarify (for you) the point that you missed.
The old ideas of "left" verses "right" are changing and the racism, bigotry, etc of the "Progressives" that went with those ideas are dying in US society as a whole. Thus, both the rank-and-file members of the GOP and the Dems are not as racist as they once were and if the Ron/Rand Paul revolution continues to blossom within the GOP itself, then the Libertarians (like myself) will accomplish the current goal (to take over the leadership of the GOP, like the "Progressives" took over the leadership of the Dems).

Do you understand now?

Yes, except that's not the point I "missed".

[Ithekro]

Never seen the term "progressives" used in this fashion. I'm more for the option of getting the old TR days Progressives back. If nothing else it put a balance on the Republican party that's been missing since about 1920.

[justinstrife]

Just watching all the fun from the sidelines. It will be a very interesting next two years.

[Urzu 7]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

Just watching all the fun from the sidelines. It will be a very interesting next two years.

Eh, none of them are good, basically. This election, 2016 election, it all ultimately boils down to this:

[AnimeFan188]

Relax—Both Parties Are Going Extinct:

"Our parties are shrinking because each in its own way can’t come to terms with
decentralization. But it’s real, and it’s going to bury them."

See:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ou-think.html#

[GundamFan0083]

THIS is why the Dems lost tonight.

They failed to listen to Bill.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...ure-86443.html

[james0246]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

THIS is why the Dems lost tonight.

They failed to listen to Bill.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...ure-86443.html

Gun legislation is a real big worm stuck in the craw of a large swath of demographics, but blaming one issue, no matter how pervasive, isn't really the answer. The democrats lost for a variety of issues, some clearly local in nature, but many dealing with their clear unwillingness to actually standing up for any of their accomplishments over the past few (6) years. It's frustrating how gutless these Democratic incumbents and challengers have been concerning the marked improvements of the last 6/8 years (I don't say successes necessarily, but there are definite improvements). Hell, it's gotten to the point were the only reason I vote Democratic is because the Republican challengers are seemingly insane and there is no decent third party candidate running in my district.

Whatever the case, we've had months to prepare for this eventuality, so none of this is a real shock. I'm eager to now see just what the Republicans think they can do with their majority (which I assume they will hold for at least the next decade), and how much will actually be accomplished.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by james0246

Gun legislation is a real big worm stuck in the craw of a large swath of demographics, but blaming one issue, no matter how pervasive, isn't really the answer. The democrats lost for a variety of issues, some clearly local in nature, but many dealing with their clear unwillingness to actually standing up for any of their accomplishments over the past few (6) years. It's frustrating how gutless these Democratic incumbents and challengers have been concerning the marked improvements of the last 6/8 years (I don't say successes necessarily, but there are definite improvements). Hell, it's gotten to the point were the only reason I vote Democratic is because the Republican challengers are seemingly insane and there is no decent third party candidate running in my district.

Whatever the case, we've had months to prepare for this eventuality, so none of this is a real shock. I'm eager to now see just what the Republicans think they can do with their majority (which I assume they will hold for at least the next decade), and how much will actually be accomplished.

Oh, James, you and I both know the GOP is going to fuck this up.
They always do.
They have control of congress, which means they're going to get all starry eyed and stupid just like the Dems were in 2008.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by AnimeFan188

Relax—Both Parties Are Going Extinct:

"Our parties are shrinking because each in its own way can’t come to terms with
decentralization. But it’s real, and it’s going to bury them."

See:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ou-think.html#

Kinda strange that this is the most hopeful thing I've read for a while, lol. I really do hope those that have not built a future do minimal damage to those with futures.

[Sugetsu]

What we all need to keep in mind is that this country is NOT a democracy. It is an oligarchy and no matter who wins, ever since citizens united ruling back in 2010, money will now more than ever dictate the course of the actual legislative agenda.

Your vote loses its value after your candidate wins, for he knows that if he wishes to keep his seat he will have to do the 1% bidding or else they'll take their bags of cash over to a more sympatetic candidate.

The major problem with the republican party is that ever since Reagan the only thing they care about is big business, the common folk be dammed. But the democrats are surely trying their hardest to follow suit, after all, money is more important in politics than ever before.

Obama dispppointed me big time when he signed the Monsanto Protection act, about a year ago, which lets monsanto keep hidding the GMO labeling in foods. This was a very typical republican move that i never expected from him. Such a legislation only benefits monsanto and nobody else, even though not enough research has been done on the effects of GMO foods on human health the president is letting the general public be the guinea pigs. In fact, i learned not too long ago, that the US goverment actively promotes and enforces Monsanto's expansion into third world countries.

Monsanto isnt the only corporation with immense power over US politics; Exon Mobil, Nestle, Time Warner and others have in fact more power than any politician in congress at the present moment.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Oh, James, you and I both know the GOP is going to fuck this up.
They always do.
They have control of congress, which means they're going to get all starry eyed and stupid just like the Dems were in 2008.

Question is, how much gets fucked up for the rest of the country before it blows up in their faces? And will it actually matter when said blow up occurs?