Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Right. So perhaps can you give me a sci-fi example (novels, games, etc) since I still can't grasp the concept (Force Push doesn't count since the Force is the magic of the Star Wars universe)

I would assume that real-life weapons and technology would be easier to understand than fictional weapons, but I'll humor you then. If you've played Dead Space, then the Force Gun would be a very good example - a weapon that uses pure kinetic energy impact to damage targets.

Do remember that magic in the Nanohaverse is treated as another form of energy, and hence seeing weapons powered by magic that doesn't use the magic itself to deal damage isn't really odd.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

I would assume that real-life weapons and technology would be easier to understand than fictional weapons,

True, but not even laser beams are used in mass these days so comparing with them would only highlight the reason (production cost, maintenance, feasibility, etc) why RL armies still use solid rounds. If Nanoha is going to steer to sci-fi, it's easier to use other fictional examples as comparison.

but I'll humor you then. If you've played Dead Space, then the Force Gun would be a very good example - a weapon that uses pure kinetic energy impact to damage targets.

I...haven't played Dead Space yet, but perhaps I'll look its wiki for description.

[Justin_Brett]

*shrug*

I just think that whole idea is funny.

Really, Signum doesn't seem to have any problem with Teana or Nanoha, and they basically used guns before this.

[Laevatein]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Again, i hope that Tsuzuki allow us to enjoy the cathartic pleasure of seeing these guys receiving what they're asking for during the enterity of their screentime on this story xDU.

Problem is, the beatdowns have happened so often and for so long that it's unlikely that the Huckebeins will recieve a satisfactory amount of retaliation.

And in any case, I'm finding myself getting angry at the writer, rather than them.

[Laevatein]

Originally Posted by itanshi1

I should link to this argument since its maybe the 3rd time at least it was brought up. Since the first series, its been an arms race. Its never been about a screaming match of power levels. Is there an alternative to the two?

Two that come to mind:

1. Work around the characters' powers to make them less of an advantage
(Examples using western characters: Pitting the Hulk against someone ultra-fast, who doesn't stand still long enough for Hulk to punch him; The Flash against someone who avoids direct confrontation, is extremely patient and low key)

2. Force them into situations involving moral dilemmas (returning to the Superman analogy, this has been cited as an alternative to using kryptonite, and one that tends to work better. For example, a situation in which the only way to stop a villain is to use lethal force (which could work for Nanoha as well))

[FRS]

Akiyoshi:

The franchise is working under shonen fight rules since its begining, tracing it to Striker's is really weird to me.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by itanshi1

heh, she always had the mana levels, she just had to learn new spells, so s1 was an arms race. you seem to think you need technology. Magic in Nanoha is technology.

Magic in Nanoha is AIDED by technology, don't mix things up, a mage is not powerless without a device(see Yuuno for example) magic is something intrinsecal, a force within the body, it jsut happens that Mid-Childa/Belka are a society with science advanced enough to have learned to manipulate said energy and develop technology to enahce it's efficiency. That's the whole reason behind the FORCE plot, that conventional magic is now useless and the heroes are now totally reliant on technology. In the past, Nanoha can still launch powerfull pink bolts from her fingertips even as a civilian, thus being able to at least defend herself in the dire situation of being disarmed, Eclipse has stripped her and the rest of the cast from said advantage, now things get reduced to "grab a gun or die".

Unfair fights bother me because there's no sense of worth as a warrior, there's no merit in victory and defeat is meaningless. It's like sawing two brute caveman tricking each other with everything they find on the ground. Realism is good to a certain degree, but this is a show where the good guys need to be good guys c'mon. Ok, a cheap victory or two to show the threat of the bad guys is understandable, but this is starting to get old, Curren's intervention was surprising but once she ham it up that becomes borderline goofy, i'll take these guys very serious at first but they're starting to sound more and more cliched each time one of them open his/her mouth.

There was fair fights in S1 as also in A's. StrikerS nearly erase any possibility of a fair fight(with the unique exception of Nanoha VS. Signum Exhibition match, without limiters and Unison) and FORCE practically crushed whatever hope it's left for it. So at least i hope that the not so heroic tactics of our heroes at least will be entertaining.

[itanshi1]

thats an argument worth making here :/

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Really, Signum doesn't seem to have any problem with Teana or Nanoha, and they basically used guns before this.

She calls the latter a "monster" and became famous for punchiong the former in the face xD!

Joke aside, Signum already gived enough hints of being and old fashioned knight with no taste for modern(by her standards) weaponary. She's ok with other using guns because it's not her bussiness, but i think she will be feel personally uncomfortable using a gun on an important fight.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

If you've played Dead Space, then the Force Gun would be a very good example - a weapon that uses pure kinetic energy impact to damage targets.

Okay then. The next question then would be: how did Nanoha expected to arrest, not kill, with this? I don't think it has non-lethal settings.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Magic in Nanoha is AIDED by technology, don't mix things up, a mage is not powerless without a device(see Yuuno for example) magic is something intrinsecal, a force within the body, it jsut happens that Mid-Childa/Belka are a society with science advanced enough to have learned to manipulate said energy and develop technology to enahce it's efficiency.

I still resent Force for choosing the "we need better guns" route instead of "we need better spells". They're mages - why not design a spell that can fire pure laser instead of magical ones?

Unfair fights bother me because there's no sense of worth as a warrior, there's no merit in victory and defeat is meaningless. It's like sawing two brute caveman tricking each other with everything they find on the ground. Realism is good to a certain degree, but this is a show where the good guys need to be good guys c'mon.

Then I guess the complain would be why they added military flavor into the story in the first place - any military who has, or face, that kind of firepower and still insists on chivalry deserves to be massacred. War was never fair. Y'know Miyamoto Musashi, most famous for his swordsmanship? He had stated that every weapons have its uses, including guns.

But that's the case of when the heroes are fighting a battle or a war. Supervised tournaments on the other hand...

Still, I guess Teana's final fight in StrikerS must be distasteful for you . I mean, the NumberS trio had the unfair advantage of ...err, number, and Tea responded with deception. Both sides trick each other with everything they find on the ground.

So at least I hope that the not so heroic tactics of our heroes at least will be entertaining.

Not unless they drop the befriending attitude they won't. Not with all their disadvantages. Aside from Teana, does any of them consider ambush to be a viable tactic?

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

She calls the latter a "monster" and became famous for punchiong the former in the face xD!

Joke aside, Signum already gived enough hints of being and old fashioned knight with no taste for modern(by her standards) weaponary. She's ok with other using guns because it's not her bussiness, but i think she will be feel personally uncomfortable using a gun on an important fight.

Teana: "Who the Hell are you anyway, giving out orders like this."

Signum: "What, are you dense? Are you retarded or something? Who the Hell do you think I am? *clocks Teana* I'M THE GODDAMN SIGNUM!"

Narf.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

I still resent Force for choosing the "we need better guns" route instead of "we need better spells". They're mages - why not design a spell that can fire pure laser instead of magical ones?

A very good point, still it is lampshaded a little with Isis combustion magic and Hayate's Heimdall, hope that now the AEC toys flopped they think on exploit the loopholes of the eclipse. I'm still scratching my head wondering how exactly fire conversion affinity got cancelled by the Eclipse. A mana-conversion affinity isn't suppoused to work by instantly convert mana into the affined element?

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Then I guess the complain would be why they added military flavor into the story in the first place - any military who has, or face, that kind of firepower and still insists on chivalry deserves to be massacred. War was never fair. Y'know Miyamoto Musashi, most famous for his swordsmanship? He had stated that every weapons have its uses, including guns.

Agreed, not that i hate military flavor, but Nanoha seemed so innapropiate for that. I liked how things ended in A's with the Aces and Wolkies togheter as a power team, ready to face new threats and defend the earth against evil sorcerers or aliens xD. Instead they turned themselves into the magical G.I.JOE.

I know a litte about Miyamoto Musashi and that's why i like Kojiro Sasaki better even if he loses the fight with Musashi due to his tricks.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

But that's the case of when the heroes are fighting a battle or a war. Supervised tournaments on the other hand...

Aaaand that's why i have almost no complaints on Vivid(aside of the amped up cuteness but that's bearable). For the moment it's a good source of developement fanservice because is giving some love to undershowed characters and also becomes the foster home of the Yagami family after being kicked out by FORCE(ok, that was a lame pun xDU).

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Still, I guess Teana's final fight in StrikerS must be distasteful for you . I mean, the NumberS trio had the unfair advantage of ...err, number, and Tea responded with deception. Both sides trick each other with everything they find on the ground.

Well, yes and no. StrikerS new characters work fine into the setting because they're created to belong there, the forwards are trained to work as a tactical squad(even if they aren't precisely good at it xDU), Teana is a shooter and also the weakest member of the team power-wise so it's more or less understandable that she uses her knowledge and training to survive being trashed by a trio of killer cyborgs. The Numbers are cyberpunk criminals dealing with a detective-type character, much different of Knight-type characters like the wolkies or Hero-type like the aces.

Gladly, the author still treates Signum in-character(if a bit dumber) in FORCE, even in the brink of death she won't allow herself to do two things: Fight cowardly and drop her weapon. Her corpse is still holding what is left of Laevateinn.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Unless they drop the befriending attitude they won't. Not with all their disadvantages. Aside from Teana, does any of them consider ambush to be a viable tactic?

It's not like they considerate ambush a viable tactic or not, it's apparently the only tactic that actually WORKS with these guys. They're so invincible that defeating them one-on-one is a laughable idea(the strongest mage with the strongest equipement got trashed shield by shield). Hope to see the anti-huck mini-teams(teams of three will be nice, like King of Fighters xD).

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Page claimed for Signum/Agito's new wepon to NOT end up being a gun.

I still vote for a shield. Screw the 'but a shield doesn't fit Signum' cries. Shields are awesome.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Okay then. The next question then would be: how did Nanoha expected to arrest, not kill, with this? I don't think it has non-lethal settings.

Shoot them until they pass out from the effort of regenerating. Or surrender.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

I still resent Force for choosing the "we need better guns" route instead of "we need better spells". They're mages - why not design a spell that can fire pure laser instead of magical ones?

Nanoha always had 'bigger guns.' Even A's was bigger guns. Yes, it was usage of already existing technology, but Nanoha and Fate still got bigger guns. Even S1 had 'bigger guns' with Raising Heart's mode changing.

[Arcc]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Then I guess the complain would be why they added military flavor into the story in the first place - any military who has, or face, that kind of firepower and still insists on chivalry deserves to be massacred. War was never fair. Y'know Miyamoto Musashi, most famous for his swordsmanship? He had stated that every weapons have its uses, including guns.

Hey, militaries on TV don't have to be cynical and hyperpragmatic. Stargate SG-1 is a prime example of the U.S. military playing the honourable champions card. . . and it works. It's one of the best Sci-fi shows there are.

Also, there are circumstances for everything. On Midchilda, the fact that magical power of one incredibly talented individual can be far more effective than a small army of lesser ones means they've evolved tactics differently. Agincourt never would have happened, so to speak, because your archers' bombardment can't bring down the cavalry knights. Suppressive fire simply isn't viable military tactic in Mid once the main pieces take the board. Even the Hucks are subject to this rule: They're superpowerful, but they are still a small group of individual fighters, not an army.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Arcc

Hey, militaries on TV don't have to be cynical and hyperpragmatic. Stargate SG-1 is a prime example of the U.S. military playing the honourable champion card. . . and it works. It's one of the best Sci-fi shows there are.

Yes, they don't have to. It's just that we don't really cover every bits of the spectrum here.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I still vote for a shield. Screw the 'but a shield doesn't fit Signum' cries. Shields are awesome.

I agree, if only because playing Dragon Age II influenced my opinion on this

Shoot them until they pass out from the effort of regenerating. Or surrender.

Like I said, right now the heroes are the ones with ammo issues. Unreliable power supply, remember? And with all the advantages they have, convincing the Hucks will be a Herculean task.

Nanoha always had 'bigger guns.' Even A's was bigger guns. Yes, it was usage of already existing technology, but Nanoha and Fate still got bigger guns. Even S1 had 'bigger guns' with Raising Heart's mode changing.

Not always. Remember S1? Nanoha got her ass kicked by Fate. Her response was crafting Starlight Breaker, a spell. And if you add the mangas then there's also Stardust Fall, designed specifically to utilize the environment against anti-magic opponents. And IIRC at the same chapter Fate also had her equivalent.

Originally Posted by Arcc

Hey, militaries on TV don't have to be cynical and hyperpragmatic. Stargate SG-1 is a prime example of the U.S. military playing the honourable champions card. . . and it works. It's one of the best Sci-fi shows there are.

I'm not familiar with the series so you'll have to enlighten me: what kind of "honorable" are we talking about? Is it the (a)They treated their POW's humanely, always keep their word, and avoid civilian casualties flavor, or the (b)I demand an honorable one-on-one duel, no teamwork, with only one weapons each and no special arsenals kind?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remembered reading somewhere that the series has military advisers, and I don't think they would agree with (b)

Also, there are circumstances for everything. On Midchilda, the fact that magical power of one incredibly talented individual can be far more effective than a small army of lesser ones means they've evolved tactics differently. Agincourt never would have happened, so to speak, because your archers' bombardment can't bring down the cavalry knights. Suppressive fire simply isn't viable military tactic in Mid once the main pieces take the board. Even the Hucks are subject to this rule: They're superpowerful, but they are still a small group of individual fighters, not an army.

Yes, but even the early series shows a tiny semblance of tactics. Remember the Wolkies? It looks like they were dueling one-on-one, but Shamal actually acted as AWACS slash healer. And don't forget her "Linker Core Steal" skill. Not quite honorable isn't it? By why let that skill go to waste just for 'honor'?

And Agincourt wasn't just Longbowman VS Cavalry. The English also had infantry to mow down any horsemen that survived the barrage. The key thing is 'teamwork' - something I'm not seeing much until recently.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I still vote for a shield. Screw the 'but a shield doesn't fit Signum' cries. Shields are awesome.

Still doesen't fit her, but is ten times better than a gun. I prefer to see her pussing out behind a shield than being a douche and shoot someone xDU.

[Koveras Alvane]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Nah, she'll modify Levantine into a ShotgunSword

Maybe it could be converted to a Strike Cannon-like railgun? Where the blade forks in the middle to fire...

Originally Posted by WarpObscura

SMG, noobtu- I mean 'nade launcher, single-barrel MG...

An SMG is, for all its effectiveness, too small for Signum, grenade launcher is more of a bombardment weapon and she already has Sturm Falke... Single barrel minigun would be awesome, though. With explosive silver bullets blessed by the Saint Church.

Originally Posted by Keroko

I still vote for a shield. Screw the 'but a shield doesn't fit Signum' cries. Shields are awesome.

Except that she already has a Panzerschild for most purposes. And as Fortress' example shows, shields are not very effective against EC...

Originally Posted by Tiresias

I agree, if only because playing Dragon Age II influenced my opinion on this

If anything, DA2 taught me that two-handed swords can be awesome.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Still doesen't fit her, but is ten times better than a gun. I prefer to see her pussing out behind a shield than being a douche and shoot someone xDU.

Considering that she already has a supersonic bow, she doesn't seem to share your douche sentiment.

Though I do like how the cast gets hammered for being stupid in Force, but Signum growing a brain and grabbing a shield with that one-handed sword of hers (y'know, the smart thing to do) is considered cowardice.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

I agree, if only because playing Dragon Age II influenced my opinion on this

Hah! See? *is sitting with a very smug look on his face* :3

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Like I said, right now the heroes are the ones with ammo issues. Unreliable power supply, remember? And with all the advantages they have, convincing the Hucks will be a Herculean task.

*shrug* Hey, I never said it was a smart idea, but that seems to be what they're going for.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Not always. Remember S1? Nanoha got her ass kicked by Fate. Her response was crafting Starlight Breaker, a spell. And if you add the mangas then there's also Stardust Fall, designed specifically to utilize the environment against anti-magic opponents. And IIRC at the same chapter Fate also had her equivalent.

I never said it was only 'bigger guns' but it has always been present.

On the manga, Fate's spell was a regular lightning attack magic. Stardust fall was never noted to be specifically created to fight against anti-magic opponents, merely a spell that could be used against anti-magic opponents. Like Heimdall, if you will, so we still have the 'new spell' in Force as well with Heimdall. Not to mention Isis, whom if her attacks are a form of magic has come to the scene with an entirely new style of magic.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Still doesen't fit her, but is ten times better than a gun. I prefer to see her pussing out behind a shield than being a douche and shoot someone xDU.

So Nanoha's a douche then?

Well that actually would explain things - all girls want bad boys girls

Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane

Maybe it could be converted to a Strike Cannon-like railgun? Where the blade forks in the middle to fire...

An SMG is, for all its effectiveness, too small for Signum, grenade launcher is more of a bombardment weapon and she already has Sturm Falke... Single barrel minigun would be awesome, though. With explosive silver bullets blessed by the Saint Church.

Perhaps we've been looking at the wrong angle. Her MCA's Fire, right? Then it should have been a Flamer Sword instead, fueled with Blessed Oil from the Adeptus Sororitas Knights of the Saint Church

Except that she already has a Panzerschild for most purposes. And as Fortress' example shows, shields are not very effective against EC...

Neither did Levantine...

If anything, DA2 taught me that two-handed swords can be awesome.

Well technically DA2 taught me that Dragon Mages are awesome

Originally Posted by Keroko

*shrug* Hey, I never said it was a smart idea, but that seems to be what they're going for.

Which is why I said they're not gonna win until they drop that attitude. Too many factors are already against them.

Unless the writer's gonna end up using a lame ass Deus Ex Machina, like the time when Shishio instantaneously combust, conveniently allowing Kenshin to keep his no-kill policy (never mind that all his opponents should've suffered severe blunt trauma)

Not to mention Isis, whom if her attacks are a form of magic has come to the scene with an entirely new style of magic.

I've been wondering, but is it actually magic? Maybe those are actually bird-shaped micro missiles or something.

------

There's something that had bothered me for a while. Why didn't the Hucks just fire their anti-magic and let the air mages plunge to their deaths? The AEC's provided an offensive capability against the Anti Magic but no defensive ones...

Why didn't Flight get affected?