[Manga] Chapter 339 Discussion

[Supaiku_of_Sand]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Not Only databook stated it as a Ninjutus, and not only Naruto knew jack about genjutsu when he was tought Bushin no Jutsu, but also, the fact that the Jutsu is not supposed to create an illusion as the same type of a genjutsu, is Just a use of chakra to create a clone that does not have a body.

but you just proved me right, a bushin no jutsu was what NAruto couldnt do very well at when he was testing to be a genin. he sucked. why? he has no skill in Genjutsu but he was successful in the Kage Bushin no jutsu becuase its ninjutsu.

If it doesnt atually exist its an illusion thats why its Genjutsu.

no real body= illusion

illusion=Genjutsu

Simple as that

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Supaiku_of_Sand

but you just proved me right, a bushin no jutsu was what NAruto couldnt do very well at when he was testing to be a genin. he sucked. why? he has no skill in Genjutsu but he was successful in the Kage Bushin no jutsu becuase its ninjutsu.

If it doesnt atually exist its an illusion thats why its Genjutsu.

no real body= illusion

illusion=Genjutsu

Simple as that

Bunshin no Jutsu is a ninjutsu. It's officially listed as a ninjutsu. The clones have no substance, but it's not a genjutsu-type illusion. Jiraiya explains that genjutsu are techniques where one uses chakra to effect an opponent's mind and requires a greater amount of intelligence than needed for ninjutsu or taijutsu. Bunshin no Jutsu is just a basic academy technique.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Supaiku_of_Sand

but you just proved me right, a bushin no jutsu was what NAruto couldnt do very well at when he was testing to be a genin. he sucked. why? he has no skill in Genjutsu but he was successful in the Kage Bushin no jutsu becuase its ninjutsu.

If it doesnt atually exist its an illusion thats why its Genjutsu.

no real body= illusion

illusion=Genjutsu

Simple as that

I didn't prove you right in any aspect and you are just in denial here. databook already states Bushin no Jutsu as a Ninjutsu not a genjutsu, thats in my post you already quoted.

One thing does not hace to do with the other, Because Naruto sucked at Genjutsu, doesn't mean that Genjutsu Has anything to do with Bushin. Is the same as saying that Kakashi is an Uchiha Because he has the Sharingan.

Naruto sucked at Bushin ni Jutsu, because he plain sucked at that particular Jutsu, that however had nothing to do with the Jutsu been Gen, Nin or Tai.

And then, Hunter could have not explained any more clearer (apart from the swarm of user that indicated the same as I did...)

Originally Posted by Hunter

Bunshin are Ninjutsu because it creates an immaterial image of yourself regardless of a target's presence.
Genjutsu in the other hand influences the brain by controling the chakra flow into it.

I will understand that you could have a hard time understanding this.

Originally Posted by Supaiku_of_Sand

i still think your all full of shit but whatever, ill digress

Actually, It would be not only me, but some other 5 poster and Kishimoto, the one who created Naruto that are full of shit....Denial, to it fullest expresion.

On another note, I wonder how far naruto is going to get wiht Kyuby this time around? Been yamato there, I suppose not much, but Its can be a precarious situation, because stooping Naruto could give an Opening to Kakuuzu.

[Nuzzles]

Originally Posted by shaselai

it wouldve been badass if Naruto could make a wind element and rasengan on each hand.... he is still using the old and obvious way of doing things

Maybe in the future he will be able to. He said that "This is all he can do at the moment".

[Supaiku_of_Sand]

does anyone with hes going to be able to manipulate it while hes not holding it i mean do you think it will follow the person its targeting or what?

[ShikaShika]

I'm guessing it will operate like a normal shuriken once airborn, since I don't see any reason why it shouldn't at the moment. I hope that's the case because anything else would be pretty lame.

[Supaiku_of_Sand]

i was just thinking it would be cool if he could control which way it goes in the air. lol

[Dix11]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

Spoiler for very long explaination:

-You know I wonder: how does Naruto keep making clones after clones and still remain so lucid while performing them? In all honestly this is quite puzzling considering his chakra pool is not at all infinite. Just making 1 Kage Bunshin cuts his supply in half and yet he brushes it off like it's noting. In fact he needs to make at least 100 clones before he feels even the slightest bit of exhaustion. So then, what could the answer be? While asking myself this I came up with a possible answer, albeit a very odd one. Now the main point of this lies in "chakra recovery" (as in how fast a person's chakra is restored by their body). Obviously, due to the Kyuubi's influence, Naruto's chakra pool and recovery should be nothing like everyone else's. Look at it in terms of numbers. Say we want to compare Kakashi's and Naruto's chakra recovery after a Kage Bunshin. Kakashi has 100 units of chakra and Naruto, who posseses at least 2x the amount, has 200. They each make 100 clones which would leave Kakashi with 1 unit of chakra and Naruto with just 2. However, Kakashi's chakra recovery rate over time is a mere 5 units per second while Naruto's is most likely 50 units a second. Within 4 seconds Naruto can make another 100 clones (which are just as strong as his previous) while Kakashi would have to wait 20 seconds before he could do that. Do note that Kakashi could create 100 clones with minimal chakra but they would be much weaker and would end up putting his life in danger. Of course, adding Kyuubi's chakra into this fray gives Naruto the chakra recovery of 200 (estimate may most likely be false) units a second, intantly refilling him to full. Well that's what my explaination is anyway. Anybody else have a different answer?

You said that making one kage bunshin divides his chakra in half. I don't know how the kage bunshin technique actually affects his chakra though but, making 100 bunshins from 200 units of chakra doesnt seem to flow logically. If every clone he makes divides his chakra in half, then with 100 units of chakra he could make about 6 clones before being left with just one unit of chakra. Thats if each clone after the one before it depletes half of his remaining chakra. i.e. 100 > 50 > 25 > 12 > 6 > 3 > 1.

It could also be that his chakra is distributed equally among the clones he makes, each one taking a percentage of his chakra. So with 100 units, he makes 10 clones, each taking 10 units, or he could make 1 clone using 50 units. That would mean that the more clones he produces, the weaker each one is, and the weaker he leaves himself after executing the technique.

The only way Naruto's insane ability to produce clones makes sense to me is if he possesses literally thousand of times more chakra than anyone else, or if his chakra regeneration is almost instant, like wolverine's healing in xmen. If an average ninja has 100 units of chakra for example, but naruto has 1000 times that, for 100,000 units, then he could make 1000 clones with each having 1/1000 of his total chakra, meaning each has 100 units put into it, and thus, each is as strong as a normal ninja. Then to be able to repeath the technique moments later, which we've seen him do, he'd have to have regenerated back up to nearly full power to create the same number of equally powerful clones as he did before.

I think that the way Kyuubi's chakra mixes with Narutos gives him many times more chakra than a normal ninja and also regenerates it almost instantly. We know Naruto's body cannot handle all of the nine-tails chakra at once, its not a big enough container, therefore, I think that when Naruto uses a technique like kage bunshin, he depletes most of the chakra that his body was channeling, but then the kyuubi chakra that his body wasn't previously channeling flows in from kyuubi and replaces what he just lost, because the kyuubi probably has almost limitless chakra.

[Sogoro]

Why are people even arguing over about Kage Bunshin being a Ninjutsu or Genjutsu...

We know a Kage Bunshin can do stuff in the Physical Realm...Like holding stuff and what not.

A regular Bunshin is just an image clone. The Byakugan can see straight through Bunshins; meaning they can tell its an image. Now that being said because the Byakugan can tell its an Image that must mean Bunshin no Jutsu must be a Genjutsu. Genjutsu affects the 5 senses; because a normal person cant tell that its a Image Clone its affecting their sense of sight. Therefor Bunshin no Jutsu is indeed a type of Genjutsu.

Kage Bunshin no Jutsu isn't a Genjutsu...Because it can inflict physical damage and is a replicated materialized clone.

[prolifik]

Are you guys actually reading eachother's posts? I have seen no less than 5 people say that in the databook , bushin no jutsu is a ninjutsu. This information comes from the author himself. How would it be possible to argue with that?

[Sogoro]

Because people dont know how to read and you have to repeat yourself a million times before they get the point.

Or for the sake of arguing.

[Sogoro]

If he could control where they appeared that'd be a massive advantage over the enemy. But it'd only work if the clones could attack faster than the opponent. It'd be close to the Fourth's teleport jutsu.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Sogoro

A regular Bunshin is just an image clone. The Byakugan can see straight through Bunshins; meaning they can tell its an image. Now that being said because the Byakugan can tell its an Image that must mean Bunshin no Jutsu must be a Genjutsu. Genjutsu affects the 5 senses; because a normal person cant tell that its a Image Clone its affecting their sense of sight. Therefor Bunshin no Jutsu is indeed a type of Genjutsu.

for 100th time... Bushin is a ninjutsu, not genjutsu... (as stated is damn near every credible source of info you could find on naruto; databooks, wiki, good fansites...)
Genjutsu are jutsus that effect an enemies mind and make them THINK something is happening that is actually not... it's 100% mental

Bushin however does not effect the mind but the environment... it creates an immateral clone that can be seen by EVERYONE (friend, foe, your pet dog, etc)... they all don't just THINK they see a clone they actually DO see the clone... If Bushin was a genjutsu, then the only ones who would see the clones are those who are targeted by the jutsu and it would be the case that they don't actually see a clone but only THINK they see a clone (exact opposite of what was said before)

[Sarugaki]

Enough with the bunshin ninjutsu/genjutsu argument already..

[sakura-san]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Can Naruto control, where his clones will appear?
In most of the cases they just seem to appear immediately besides him. But I think I also remember scenes in the woods, where they appeared sitting on branches (instead of appearing in mid-air falling down).
And if he can control it: How far away from him can they appear? Just around the next corner/behind the next tree, or even at the other end of the world?

Usually we see him splitting into the clones, but maybe they just sneak behind somewhere.... If he could choose where they appear it should be in a close range, but with that chakra size of his and if he could actually choose where it appeared it could have sort of a Hiraishin affect. Or not.

As to ending the Ninjutsu/Genjutsu bunshin arguement. Naruto could not do a simple Bunshin NOT because it was a Genjutsu but because he couldn't mould the Chakra. Normal bunshin used little chakra, and he wasn't able to concentrate it enough to form the bunshin, he used so much chakra that it practically destroyed itself on creation. The reason Naruto was able to do the Kage Bunshin is because it used a lot of chakra. End discussion.

[ri0]

Originally Posted by Supaiku_of_Sand

dont try and be all psychoanalitical with me man. big deal i choose to see things differently

You choose to see things differently from Kishimoto? So why don't you start your own manga^^

[Supaiku_of_Sand]

Originally Posted by Sogoro

Kage Bunshin no Jutsu isn't a Genjutsu...Because it can inflict physical damage and is a replicated materialized clone.

i never said that KAGE bushin no jutsu was genjutsu. i was always saying that it was nin. I guess i was just being Stubborn with thinking a regular bushin was a genjutsu

And i was just saying that it seemed different to me, my bad. (me and a few friends actually are trying to though. lol)

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

and this is why wikipedia, though generally a creditable source for info, is not always 100% correct... that particular info on wikipedia does not reflect the databooks, the databooks have him down as rankless

If that is true, then for me it looks strange. Hinata's father is like someone, who is not retired, who is not active, and who is not dead. Maybe it can be understandable if we establish a reasoning based on the special privileges the leaders of the head family are provided with.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Since the 2nd Data Book stops after the end of Part 1, Jiraiya should still be unranked.

What you say breaks my hopes, but I will still wait for the next data book.

At least, it would be really nice if someone asks that to Kishi and then we can expect to receive an explanation regarding why he doesn't provide any kind of rank for such people. If someone is not dead, and not missing, and not retired while still having ties with his village, then his rank should carry something instead of an N/A. Who knows, maybe Kishi considers that Jounin would be inappropriate for someone like Jiraiya and would prefer to not rank him based on what we have, still, it is better to have some info there instead of nothing.

Originally Posted by The Small One

Something I didnt really understand about the chapter:
Naruto lets his clones attack, and afterwards he says something like "I'll probably need three clones". He then creates 3 clones, which make his new jutsu and seem to disappear afterwards (at least they aren't in the image anymore).
So doesn't he need 3 clones to create the jutsu in the first place? Why even bother to say, that he needs three of them? Or did he create 6 clones, out of which 3 were only openly visible?

Naruto just measured the speed/skill level of Kakuzu using the two clones (basic skills). So, if he were to fight Kakuzu head on, he needs to use at least three clones to be able pass through his barrier of extensions.

If Kakuzu were to be actively pursuing Naruto instead of standing there and watching him doing what he was planning to do, then Naruto needed to have that 6 clones in total, to finish his jutsu. But, thanks to that kind of wait and see attitude of Kakuzu, Naruto just needed only 3 at that moment. But, we might see him use that three extra clones later on to be able to catch Kakuzu with the wind rasengan shuriken.

[Ichimaru]

only part i didnt like is kakashi tryin to steal narutos limelight, lets join ur rasengan with mine, stfu and gtfo kakashi.....thats just like sayin lets join jiraiyas rasengan + 2 more and see what we get....

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

If that is true, then for me it looks strange. Hinata's father is like someone, who is not retired, who is not active, and who is not dead. Maybe it can be understandable if we establish a reasoning based on the special privileges the leaders of the head family are provided with.

Well the Main family doesn't go outside the village in mission (Hinata being the exception as she was cast aside), they are ninja but they aren't in the military.
Hence why they don't have military rank.

It's the same for Itachi, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Zabuza, Haku, etc.
Since they aren't part of the military force of their village they aren't ranked anymore.
Note also that none of the Sound ninja are ranked. It seems the organization of the Sound doesn't work like the major villages but more like a "gang".