2008-04-13, 09:46 | Link #121 | |
the red string of fate
Join Date: Jan 2007
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anyway, she let him have the gun and give her his jacket, didn't she? Sure, she's not as ridiculous a fangirl as before, (good!) but heck, she's not running out of the room or pointing guns at him anymore. I'd pretty much call that putitng her fears to rest. Besides, now she's made a promise to Urabe. (kinda...) |
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2008-04-13, 09:46 | Link #122 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Land of Dead Cakes!
Age: 34
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Quote:
Kallen said: Shinjiru dakara dorei ni natta de mo. Or something along those lines. She said she believes in him. She later followed with Zero, implying that he has to show her that he is truly the same person, or some such. |
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2008-04-13, 10:05 | Link #124 |
昔
Join Date: Jan 2004
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I've been listening to the line over and over. The "Shinjiru dakara dorei ni natta de" part is certainly correct, but while I heard a "mo" the first time as well, the more I listen to it, the more I think that's just my brain filling in the rest of the line as I expected it. Not entirely sure how the meaning of the sentence would change without the mo though.
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2008-04-13, 10:08 | Link #125 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Land of Dead Cakes!
Age: 34
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2008-04-13, 10:09 | Link #126 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Lelouch: Shinjirarenai ka? Kallen: Shinjitai. Dakara, dorei ni natte demo... (added note: I've listened to this several times too, and I'm positive the last "mo" is there. I'm also absolutely positive that Kallen says "shinjitai" here - "shinjiru" comes later.) Lelouch: Sou ka. Kallen: Demo! Watashi ga shinjiru no wa Zero yo. Lelouch, anta nanka ja nai. So she starts by saying that she wants to believe him, then emphasises that the one she believes in is Zero, not Lelouch. I interpreted the second statement as conditional on the first ("I want to believe you - but even if I do, I can only believe in Zero, not Lelouch") as opposed to modifying the first ("I want to believe you... okay, I've decided I'll believe you, but only as Zero, not Lelouch"). I just didn't see any sign from Kallen that she was actually stopping to make such a serious decision in mid-conversation. Quote:
My interpretation is that she was laying down the limits of their new relationship - she's prepared to follow him and his publicly espoused ideals "professionally" when he's Zero, but she can't trust him personally as Lelouch. |
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2008-04-13, 10:14 | Link #127 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Land of Dead Cakes!
Age: 34
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Quote:
She distinguished them before, I think its more a line of "Show me your the same man". She wants to be certain that they are in fact the same. There is a difference between them, one was an untouchable idol, while the other was just a student. She needs to be reaffirmed just who Zero is. |
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2008-04-13, 10:19 | Link #128 | |
Nina must Die
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Area 11
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2008-04-13, 10:19 | Link #129 | |
昔
Join Date: Jan 2004
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With the mo however...you could potentially interpret it as her being fine with having become his slave (with the implication that, because she trusts him, so she'd do anything for him) In any case....getting back to the point from our posts earlier....there's nothing in that conversation about her "wanting to trust him", as you stated before Guppy. The rest of your interpretation sounds about right to me, though I would lean more towards the same conclusions as Var came to myself. I have to say though, I don't see these pauses you're mentioning var. The conversation seemed to flow naturally to me. |
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2008-04-13, 10:23 | Link #131 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Land of Dead Cakes!
Age: 34
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Edit: The pause is at the start of their conversation. After 'Shinjirarenai ka'. |
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2008-04-13, 10:24 | Link #132 | |
昔
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Her tone is all over the place. A true tsundere. She goes from a kind of insecure submissive tone right to self-confident assertions. It's confusing. ^^; |
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2008-04-13, 10:27 | Link #133 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
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I agree that the second pause is arguable, but during it we see Kallen's expression is still one of extreme uncertainty. We never see her positively affirm a decision; at most, it might be implied when she lifts her head and forcefully continues, "But...!" Bottom line, we're just reading Kallen differently. I don't think we can settle this one today; more evidence will be required. Quote:
If Kallen does distinguish between Zero and Lelouch, she's doing so on the basis of the "ideal" Zero, the public face - in which case Lelouch can't show he's the same man as Zero, because he isn't, and Kallen now knows that. She can't expect him to live up to Zero's ideals and goals in all respects, because in the final analysis they're not what drives Lelouch. The best she can do for now is to follow Zero the leader and trust that he'll advance the cause of Japanese liberation, while trying to figure out what makes Lelouch the man tick. I admit, I'm conflating "trust" and "believe" in this discussion, because I think the two concepts are largely interchangeable in this context. The bare facts are that Kallen did say "shinjitai" before saying "shinjiru." |
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2008-04-13, 10:31 | Link #134 | |
昔
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Lelouch: Shinjirarenai ka? Kallen: Shinjite. Dakara, dorei ni natte de Lelouch: Sou ka. Kallen: Demo! Watashi ga shinjiru no wa Zero yo. Lelouch, anta nanka ja nai. She clearly states that she believes/trusts in him, not just that she wants to believe/trust in him. You're right though in that the concepts are interchangeable. Actually, I don't think from memory there's even a separation of the two concepts in Japanese. |
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2008-04-13, 10:32 | Link #135 | |
Holy Beast ~Wuff!~
Scanlator
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i agree, but she's now part of the special club that knows his identity and once she witness him doing "Zero-Sama" stuff, i don't think kallen will be able to separate the feelings she have for Zero with Lulou. :3 muwahaha. love tsundere. epsecially in bunny suits. well as long as they aren't wielding god-like powers anyway....
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2008-04-13, 10:33 | Link #136 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Land of Dead Cakes!
Age: 34
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If anything, this is a perfectly good excuse to have them get closer to one another. Especially now that Lelouch knows how she's felt, the question falls on how that develops and how Kallen develops around Lelouch. Though, as you mentioned, he reaffirmed her trust and understanding of him with his actions concerning the jacket and Urabe. Good ears. |
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2008-04-13, 10:34 | Link #137 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
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I've listened to the scene again a couple of times (with earbuds in and the volume jacked up), and unfortunately I still disagree with you on this. I doubt we can resolve that short of obtaining the official transcript, or perhaps taking a poll.
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2008-04-13, 10:37 | Link #138 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Land of Dead Cakes!
Age: 34
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Compare it to when Lelouch asks: Shinjirarenai ka. The -e is pretty obviously there. Then Kallen's reply sound very much so like a -a. Hum... edit. Now that I listened to it again, I'm baffled. |
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2008-04-13, 10:37 | Link #139 |
昔
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Unless you've had experience as a translator and/or QC for fansubs here (which I have had, though in mostly minor roles I'll admit), and/or have lived in the country for a period (2004-2005 for me) I'm going to have to trump you here sorry. That's clearly a -te sound at the end of that word. Honestly, I don't know how you can possibly confuse the two.
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2008-04-13, 10:38 | Link #140 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Yes, I agree with what you're saying there. I think we do feel the same way on this issue, and the rest is just semantics. |
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