Muv-Luv Franchise - Military Tactics, History, & Geo-Politics

[Reckoner]

Question:

The Laser class are using directed beams right?

But in today's world we have counters to laser guided weaponry.

Does the muv luv universe answer specifically is special about these directed beams that gets around this?

[Firefly00]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Question:

The Laser class are using directed beams right?

Relevant question: are these pulse lasers (see: Moonraker; the original G.I. Joe animated series) or the 'true' beam variety which have to be held on target for maximum effect (Too Human)?

But in today's world we have counters to laser guided weaponry.

Most of those involve disrupting the guidance beam; or (seen in some Dale Brown novels) using a low-power laser to burn out the seeker head. If we're talking about actual laser weapons, some settings use a combination of hull design and hull rotation; the latter measure is intended to increase survivability by not letting the beam settle on one spot for long... theoretically possible for reentry vehicles and artillery shells. Of course, the effectiveness of such measures also depends on how much power the laser is pumping downrange.

Does the muv luv universe answer specifically is special about these directed beams that gets around this?

I suspect this might be a case of BETA lasers being powerful enough to simply overcome whatever countermeasures might be in play.

[DoomRavager]

The SFX used and the technical description of their effect and appropriate evasiom measures in the VN would suggest that they behave as actual beams.

And the VN did address several countermeasures like ablative coating and heavy metal dust clouds, and the answer was "well yeah you have those BUT it only reduces the effectiveness not eliminates it entirely so there".

[Hypernova]

Besides orbital kinetic what about orbital energy strike using focused solar? With the tech they have they should have no trouble build giant mirrors in space. This solves the power issue since you only need them for manipulation of the mirrors.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Hypernova

Besides orbital kinetic what about orbital energy strike using focused solar? With the tech they have they should have no trouble build giant mirrors in space. This solves the power issue since you only need them for manipulation of the mirrors.

Tech level. You need Very Big Scary Mirrors to build Big Scary Mirrors. And you need lots of mirrors in a Very Scary Array to produce an "Earth Shaking Kaboom" beam. Even now on earth there is only one institution capable of production small space mirrors strong enough for a few mega joules.

[Hypernova]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Tech level. You need Very Big Scary Mirrors to build Big Scary Mirrors. And you need lots of mirrors in a Very Scary Array to produce an "Earth Shaking Kaboom" beam. Even now on earth there is only one institution capable of production small space mirrors strong enough for a few mega joules.

You don't have to go for kaboom, a slow unstoppable bake would do just as fine. As for mirrors you don't need one giant mirror but sever smaller ones.

Alternatives you can have a space laser that is solar powered, considering that the in universe limitation is power supply IMO it's a viable plan. Not to mention this kind of weapons are one time investments (ignoring upkeep) which beats throwing away resources building cannon fodder and ammo.

[encia]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

It's not ionization so much as being flash atomized or ripped apart by shockwave.

No human nuclear radiation weapon around is capable of that

It depends on the magnitude and intensity e.g. a free electron laser with gamma frequency photons (EM) with sufficient wattage/power. With sufficient wattage/power, the output would be similar to a nuclear blast at a given yield rating.

Gamma frequency photons unusually degrades to lower frequency photons as it travels within the atmosphere i.e. this is the main source for the X-Ray/UV/heat/visual/IR frequency photons (EM) in a nuclear blast i.e. hydrodynamic nuclear shockwave function. http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq3.html

A fusion reactor (controlled fusion nuclear reaction) with particle accelerated (like a rail gun) channel would give you a high end frequency photons beam and charged particle (plasma) beam. We just need to master a controlled fusion nuclear reaction at a given rating.

The principle similar to most for Sci-Fi/mecha shows with a proper beam weapons e.g.
1. Starwars Death Star's superlaser, but replace the fusion reactor with "Hyperspace" core.
2. Star Trek's EM mode phasers or "plasma phaser"(anti-Borg phaser), but replace the fusion reactor with an anti-matter/matter/warp (subspace energy tap component) core.
3. In Gundam Seed, they use a nuclear weapon's gamma frequency photons yield and re-channelled it into an energy beam, thus creating a gamma photon beam weapon i.e. can nuke most of USA.

Think about what makes an object solid (instead of gas/liquid state) and the energy to change it's matter state. KE impact still follows the same mechanisms. We could calculate the energy from the sword as it impacts and slices a BETA.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

They don't function like normal lifeforms so if you intend to screw with their physiological workings....no. Only way is to flat out destroy them.

Without fancy shields, they still follow the same physics rules e.g. naval weapons fire still affects BETAs.

A human nuclear radiation weapon that has similar 16 inch naval gun shells(chemical based) energy yield would have similar results.

[DoomRavager]

@Hypernova; Well, I hope your unstoppable slow bake can reach down through six kilometers of dirt full of tunnels lined with xenotech EM wave absorbing materials sturdy enough to withstand multiple tactical nuclear devices (or the non-nuclear equivalent in yield), and heat up the target at the bottom enough to cause it to burn up (and who knows how durable it really is), hope they don't have a countermeasure, and if they don't hope you get the job done within nineteen days before some kind of heat dissipation countermeasure appears. And keep it exactly on target all that time. I'm not exactly familiar with the physics involved in large-scale sunlight focusing for the purposes of attacking a deep underground complex.

I would not be surprised if the BETA had some kind of preexisting measures that can be deployed for operation in very high temperature environs. Though that's getting into speculation territory.

@encia: Well, they did build a charged particle cannon in Muv-Luv Alternative at least, and it worked pretty damn well when they were able to deploy it in such a way that lasers couldn't shoot at it. All I said was that radiation sickness wouldn't happen because their physiology is nothing like Earth organism physiology (which is why you might argue that you may as well just use a straight up nuke explosion rather than one designed specially to release most of its energy as fast neutrons), I didn't say you couldn't blow them away.

They never did build a nuclear fusion reactor though. They threw their R&D budget into mastering the Gray Elements so they could build spacetime-warping engines, which conveniently generate enough electricity when in operation to power their war machine.

[encia]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Question:

The Laser class are using directed beams right?

But in today's world we have counters to laser guided weaponry.

Does the muv luv universe answer specifically is special about these directed beams that gets around this?

Not against free electron laser i.e. depends on the magnitude and intensity.

Originally Posted by DoomRavager

Well, they did build a charged particle cannon in Muv-Luv Alternative at least, and it worked pretty damn well when they were able to deploy it in such a way that lasers couldn't shoot at it. All I said was that radiation sickness wouldn't happen because their physiology is nothing like Earth organism physiology (which is why you might argue that you may as well just use a straight up nuke explosion rather than one designed specially to release most of its energy as fast neutrons), I didn't say you couldn't blow them away.

It depends on how they shield against sub-atomic particle attacks. Can they handle nuclear transmutation effects (can release photon energy = ionizing radiation)?

The same magnitude and intensity rules apply.

[Hypernova]

Originally Posted by DoomRavager

@Hypernova; Well, I hope your unstoppable slow bake can reach down through six kilometers of dirt full of tunnels lined with xenotech EM wave absorbing materials sturdy enough to withstand multiple tactical nuclear devices (or the non-nuclear equivalent in yield), and heat up the target at the bottom enough to cause it to burn up (and who knows how durable it really is), hope they don't have a countermeasure, and if they don't hope you get the job done within nineteen days before some kind of heat dissipation countermeasure appears. And keep it exactly on target all that time. I'm not exactly familiar with the physics involved in large-scale sunlight focusing for the purposes of attacking a deep underground complex.

I would not be surprised if the BETA had some kind of preexisting measures that can be deployed for operation in very high temperature environs. Though that's getting into speculation territory.

@encia: Well, they did build a charged particle cannon in Muv-Luv Alternative at least, and it worked pretty damn well when they were able to deploy it in such a way that lasers couldn't shoot at it. All I said was that radiation sickness wouldn't happen because their physiology is nothing like Earth organism physiology (which is why you might argue that you may as well just use a straight up nuke explosion rather than one designed specially to release most of its energy as fast neutrons), I didn't say you couldn't blow them away.

They never did build a nuclear fusion reactor though. They threw their R&D budget into mastering the Gray Elements so they could build spacetime-warping engines, which conveniently generate enough electricity when in operation to power their war machine.

Even if it can't destroy a hive it may find use as a tactical weapon against surface BETAs, anything that allows long range attack without risk is a great aid in battle. You may have lost air superiority but you still got the orbitals. As it is I see them making very poor utilization of this critical advantage.

[DoomRavager]

Originally Posted by encia

Not against free electron laser i.e. depends on the magnitude and intensity.

And ML lasers use Gray Elements in their construction, which amount to physics-warping magical black box materials. Who knows how tunable/adaptable their frequency and intensity are.

Originally Posted by Hypernova

Even if it can't destroy a hive it may find use as a tactical weapon against surface BETAs, anything that allows long range attack without risk is a great aid in battle. You may have lost air superiority but you still got the orbitals. As it is I see them making very poor utilization of this critical advantage.

Perhaps so. Perhaps one could speculate that such a measure was proposed but turned down for any number of reasons, for example perhaps resources diverted to the Alternative V fleet or something.

[LystAP]

Spoiler for The BETA:

I have a absolutely terrifying thought; going by their Superior's statements at the end of Alternative, the BETA are primarily resource collectors, and all they believe their "war" against humanity to be, is a slightly more difficult extraction operation.

I shudder to think what the BETA would bring to bear if they actually consider this conflict, a war. G-Elements used for G-Bombs and the Susanoo units comes from the Hives, correct? And from what we know, the Hives produce these elements, among processing other resources, and send them off-planet to some distant processing faculty.

What can be implied, is that the BETA are sending these resources to a civilization that has mastered these G-elements and interstellar travel enough to require mass production, at the very least, on a inter-galactic scale. The puny BETA classes we see on Earth that are eating through humanity, they're absolutely nothing compared to what the BETA and their creators are truly capable of. AGE is truly a master of despair.

[Angrypokstick]

More info on lasers.

Spoiler:

[IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

[Belgaesh]

Originally Posted by Angrypokstick

More info on lasers.

Spoiler:

[IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

Your post is very important, because it clarifies one of the discussions that were holden here: "Why they don't use mirrors against those lasers"

Spoiler for Contains MLA spoliers:

But I thinks the the main factor that the BETA are such a dangerous enemy is because of their numbers and the capacity to replenish them. The Laser Class are a dangerous bunch, remember that during the invasion of Yokohama UN Base they were scarcely used, only to break the barricades. Which allowed the UN forces to gain air supperiority. But even so they still almost lost.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Belgaesh

Your post is very important, because it clarifies one of the discussions that were holden here: "Why they don't use mirrors against those lasers"

Spoiler for Contains MLA spoliers:

But I thinks the the main factor that the BETA are such a dangerous enemy is because of their numbers and the capacity to replenish them. The Laser Class are a dangerous bunch, remember that during the invasion of Yokohama UN Base they were scarcely used, only to break the barricades. Which allowed the UN forces to gain air supperiority. But even so they still almost lost.

Guess... the last solution is artillery.... lots and lots of artillery... from the sea...

[Silvance]

Originally Posted by Angrypokstick

More info on lasers.

Spoiler:

[IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

Ah, I saw that image in /m/ before. Haha. Yeah, very useful post regarding the Laser class.

[Hypernova]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Guess... the last solution is artillery.... lots and lots of artillery... from the sea...

Nay, from space!

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Hypernova

Nay, from space!

Its way safer behind a mountain or under a trench... than in space .. unless you use the moon as cover... its the lasers man....

[Silvance]

how about tying up a dead BETA on the shield as they approach the laser class? They don't shoot their own kind after all. Might just work? No? :3

Jokes aside, I'm glad there aren't any flying type BETA yet...

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Silvance

how about tying up a dead BETA on the shield as they approach the laser class? They don't shoot their own kind after all. Might just work? No? :3

Now, that gave me an idea. Can a laser class kill a tank class? I mean penetrate the armor? If not the we got ourselves a shield man... Aka. TSF with shield.... Legionaire!!! Testugo!!!