Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[maximilianjenus]

Originally Posted by lubczyk

From this information, can we infer that Beatrice herself, as in the real piece Beatrice, had committed murder before?

not necesarily, it means that beatrice in the board and later eva beatrice, are willing to commit murder themselves.

[Kazane]

Furniture are merely tools. They only make the job easier. Therefore, if Ange isn't prepared to kill, neither can the stakes. It's similar to yelling at a gun on the floor to shoot.

[lubczyk]

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

not necesarily, it means that beatrice in the board and later eva beatrice, are willing to commit murder themselves.

Ah, but the whole Eva Beatrice incident never happened. It was a big, elaborate rick roll to catch Battler off-guard by Moetrice and Virgillia. Moetrice admitted that it was all a trick and therefore, never actually happened. Therefore, Eva Beatrice never committed murder with the states. By extension, we could argue that since those scenes never took place. The Beatrice Stake killings never took place and by extension, the Stakes as furniture don't exist.

[Akuryou]

Magic exists for who wants it to.

That was the point of the Ange talk in the end of episode 21.

[risingstar3110]

Now i start to get the idea of the anti-fantasy and anti-mystery forces that people mentioned. It much like the philosophy question about how people tend to take the easier explanation as the ultimate answer.

For example, we do not believe in little fairies living in our gardens and take care of our vegetables. Because to us it's much easier to think that vegetables grew on carbon dioxide, nutrition, sunlight and water. Why bother the fairies who have unknown motives after all.
But in the past, people tend to believe the opposite because technology does not allow them to confirm about the photosynthesis process. And why they have to believe in little things call atoms which form everything around this world, when witch and fairy can explain all of those.


Similar with Beatrice vs Meta-Battler case, also similar with Ange vs herself.
For Beatrice and Battler, if Meta-Battler can't deny magic, then the person (could be someone other than Battler, could be everyone) who hold the key to stop Rokkenjima's incidence also will take the magic explanation as the easier explanation, and won't try to explain or prevent the real culprit even with a million worlds. While Ange's case is explained in this episode.

But basically Umineko's magic only exist for those who believe. Red word is the certainty and is thrown in by Lambdadelta, plus with Beatrice's fake power/illusion to confuse and persuade people to believe, therefore give up their little chance to prevent. While Bern's magic is to create miracle out of little chance and therefore change the situation.

In short the chess game in Umineko is not the world in Rokkenjima, but it's the Meta-world

[Vegitto-kun]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

You miss my point. The argument isn't whether or not magic exists whether you believe in it or not rather the effects of magic and how the user manages to wield them depends on belief. Endless 9 on Battler shows that his strong belief against magic gives him such a strong toxin barrier that the siestas can't hit him. Likewise Maria and Beatrice in Ange's head/memory tell her that your own belief in magic affects your ability to use it. That said, magic's relative effects depend on the wielder and user.

Assuming it exists inside the board, of course.

I think it has more to do with the quantity of the people. if they could of killed everybody when they were together they would of done it hence why they split up the people everytime to weaken the toxin

[TeeHee]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Now i start to get the idea of the anti-fantasy and anti-mystery forces that people mentioned. It much like the philosophy question about how people tend to take the easier explanation as the ultimate answer.

If you seek a more in-depth philosophy of anti-fantasy and anti-mystery, you can read a translation of Ryukishi07's tip. Beware of spoilers on other parts of the page.

[lubczyk]

Originally Posted by Akuryou

Magic exists for who wants it to.

That was the point of the Ange talk in the end of episode 21.

Ok, magic exists. Can you kill people with it? Can the power of belief alone kill other people? And the power of belief itself doesn't equate truth or what really happened.

My crazy neighbor doesn't believe we ever landed on the moon. She thinks it was all filmed in a Hollywood studio. Her belief doesn't equal truth and doesn't change the real series of events.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Vegitto-kun

I think it has more to do with the quantity of the people. if they could of killed everybody when they were together they would of done it hence why they split up the people everytime to weaken the toxin

I do believe the VN says otherwise but I'm too lucid to remember what it was.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by lubczyk

Ok, magic exists. Can you kill people with it? Can the power of belief alone kill other people? And the power of belief itself doesn't equate truth or what really happened.

My crazy neighbor doesn't believe we ever landed on the moon. She thinks it was all filmed in a Hollywood studio. Her belief doesn't equal truth and doesn't change the real series of events.

You still haven't understood what magic truly is. Ringstar and a few other are getting close. This is not strange since Ep4 is all about the true nature of magic. It might be confusing but the elements are all there.

If you think deeply you realize that "magic" in umineko only happens in a way that is not demonstrable.

it can't happen in front of many people because the "magi-toxin", it works better when people are few or alone, it works even better if someone is blinded. It can work between different people if they believe, if they don't believe magic doesn't work.

It can "magically" restore a broken vase, but not forever. The vase that was broken by a child, became a vase that was broken by a cat.

You can use magic to transform a sad life into a life full of happiness. You can use magic to give life to a lot of friends.

But you can also use magic to kill the persons you hate. And if you are not satisfied you can revive them and kill them again, endlessly.

Think of it like a riddle. What is magic?

[lubczyk]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You still haven't understood what magic truly is. Ringstar and a few other are getting close. This is not strange since Ep4 is all about the true nature of magic. It might be confusing but the elements are all there.

If you think deeply you realize that "magic" in umineko only happens in a way that is not demonstrable.

it can't happen in front of many people because the "magi-toxin", it works better when people are few or alone, it works even better if someone is blinded. It can work between different people if they believe, if they don't believe magic doesn't work.

It can "magically" restore a broken vase, but not forever. The vase that was broken by a child, became a vase that was broken by a cat.

You can use magic to transform a sad life into a life full of happiness. You can use magic to give life to a lot of friends.

But you can also use magic to kill the persons you hate. And if you are not satisfied you can revive them and kill them again, endlessly.

Think of it like a riddle. What is magic?

So is it like that Japanese Shinto and Kami and/or ancentor worship thing? You can't see it or touch it yet people believe in it. They believe they have some effect on the Kami by paying tribute to them so that they may not get bad luck/sick/die?

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by lubczyk

So is it like that Japanese Shinto and Kami and/or ancentor worship thing? You can't see it or touch it yet people believe in it. They believe they have some effect on the Kami by paying tribute to them so that they may not get bad luck/sick/die?

I'll try to help.

Think of it as a sort of self-imposed delusion. Ange wants to believe she sees Maria, Sakutarou, and some of her friends. Therefore, when anyone else is around, she envisions them as ghostly because of the "Oooo scary magi-toxin!" instead of the truth that they're not real.

[lubczyk]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

I'll try to help.

Think of it as a sort of self-imposed delusion. Ange wants to believe she sees Maria, Sakutarou, and some of her friends. Therefore, when anyone else is around, she envisions them as ghostly because of the "Oooo scary magi-toxin!" instead of the truth that they're not real.

Thanks. Seems I was on the right track.

[Geekodot]

So apparently I'm spoiling everyone by reciting a line from the 5th episode of the Umineko anime... well whatever.

This anime episode was great and it made me tear up several times, so I gave it a 10/10 xD The scenes were beautifully adapted except for the QUALITY errors and boob oversizing... however I didn't notice that when I first watched it so I'm not counting it with my vote. This episode was perfect!

[Alair]

Still no family conference... oh well, at least they're getting everything else out of the way so that when the island part starts back up it can be interruption free.

Again, the stuff with Maria's past is especially well done. Ange was handled pretty well too though this time I was a bit put off by certain things the animators seem to have gotten a bit carried away with. It's not new but in the scene context it's a bit jarring.

The series' second 10/10 from me.

[zampeitor]

Has anybody watched the preview? IMHO it´s the most awesome so far, and next episode looks like it´s going to be packed with epicness and kinzoness xDDD.
The episode was pretty good, 9/10 for me.

[Aura Nizharu]

This anime chapter have two of my most favorites scenes of EP 4 so the animation fail and the absence of BGM was not a big problem for me.

The whole denial scene was very well done, powerfull in it's own way.
But the most powefull and well done scene was Rosa being the best mom ever. I cryed a lot while reading the scene in the SN and for the first time the anime bring tears to my eyes, the Uuu scene is trully priceless!.
The last scene in the boat, even if rushed a little it have it's meaning left intact.
a very well chapter for the Anime.
8/10

PS: my second post, looks like a bit late...

[risingstar3110]

Rosa is really crazy..... Seriously, is there anyone, who in their sane minds can resist Maria's cuteness when she speak through Sakutaro.

[jeroz]

i cried manly tears.

haven't felt the same emotion again since the end of 2nd episode where Shannon was found dead. Guess too many deaths made me a lot desensitized to them.

but now we know that maria is capable of dark motives, guess the final 3 twilights from EP1 can be solved....XD

[ChibiBear]

Such a sad episode... Rosa scares me =.=