The anime industry's problem of excessive fanservice

[hyl]

Sankaku complex has most of the time dubious news that is mostly meant to troll or to flame.

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by MisaoFan

News. This is the last (?) Sankaku thing I post in my controversial thread.

Reason why there's more censorship in modern anime : "The 3D porn and Onsen in Japan industry are gradually facing huge loss due to the growing anime counterpart, that's why they have to censor everything related to anime and manga so that they can attract more viewers by stuffing in as many nakey 3D women into local TV stations shows airing early in the morning. I'm sure the well mannered and tolerated LDP are just trying to help.."

Originally Posted by MisaoFan

There's another news when a chinese otaku ask japanese companies if they stop censoring fanservice anime anyway. The site I mentionned this was from japanese site full of chinese news.

The problem with your so called "news" is that they are not news. At current time China still remains a closed market where most anime they watch are mostly pirated or fan-translated or imported through other, more open Chinese speaking area like Taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong as they always has being.

Hell, they just find an orange, live-sized Gundam statue rip-off of original Gundam in an amusement park that was force to be taken down due to lack of licences. As such they are no more than people who were watching anime as freebies to begin with and most of them are teenage brats.

If those news are more from Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, Philippine where official anime broadcast and sales exist for decades then you might more legs on it.


But just for the fun, let's to play by your rule then, and I quote from the link you provided above from comments by people seems to more of a long time fans:

“I’ve been checking out some old Japanese anime lately - I found something a little surprising. H scenes were all OK back then it seems. Honestly, it seems things were more liberal back then?”

“Right, they used to show boobs with no problem back then. Like in Lupin III and so on, despite it being the seventies they were shown. Now all you get is great beams of holy light flashing about…”

How is that demonstrating your point that there is excessive fan-service? If anything the article is suggesting that recent anime are being censored when they wouldn't be censored years ago.

Isn't that just plain out says to you that those fan-service are there years ago and not censoered and we want to go back to the glory days of uncensored anime!!!!

Doesn't that completely go against your claim?

In fact, you should be happy with the way the industry is heading because they actually censor stuff now compare to 10, 20, 30 years ago.

[Nightbat®]

Could we try to stop incorporating a discussion on a different site in this thread

If I want to discuss the comments of sankaku 'news', I'd do so on that site itself

[Vexx]

I'm starting to lean to the hypothesis of "Sankaku troll seeking to increase hits on their site" since repeated posts from many people don't seem to be getting the notion of "news" across and the poster seems to be cherry-picking comments from that site instead of just summarizing the article itself.

[asaqe]

And maybe it is time to make cross referencing stuff from Sankaku a moddable offense. While it sometimes provides insight. Sankaku is more trouble than it's worth.

Say what??!!!!!


Please don't drag this to Ero-industry. That industry has been there since 80s as well and is also hugely responsible for some of Japanese games we now love like Visual Novels and Dating Sims.

While it's true there are plenty of artist/mangaka that started out in that industry to end up main stream but that doens't meant they are forced into it. It goes both ways. There are renown artists that stays in industry even though there are chances for him in the main stream like Tony or artist that got his break but decided to go back or continue to work alongside in the Ero work like Hiroki Yagami, Oh Great, Kaishaku. Heck even Katsura Masakazu and Togashi Yoshihiro are rumored to the behind as few Ero-Dojin Circles.

So please don't use your moral value in judging other people's (especially of different culture) moral choices. No all strippers are force to strip just as not all doctors grow up wanting to be a doctor and saving lives.

Assumption like that makes it sound like Marie Antoinette's alleged cake comment.

But I wonder why over here cartoon artists don't have to do such things. I always felt if we nip it in the bud then the problem that some of us have with the artist industry will be solved.

[Undertaker]

Not to mention the Japanese article they are misinterpreted and was only taken at headline value...

The Japanese article Misao Fan used in her (I assuming it's a her) post and subsequently in the Sankaku "news" she referred. The article specifically stated that 90s' anime is full of non-censor fan service and even use old anime such as Fist of North Star to show the good old day of violence and nudity/fan-service.

It went on to mention I what I said that most Chinese fans (mainland China) are reading/watching pirated version due to their close door policy.

This direct quote from that article is enough to dis-credit everything MisaoFan is trying to defend so far.

ウチの国でも90年代の輸入アニメはお色気シーンやらサービスシーンやらが普通にテレビで放映 されてたぞ。

　　いったい何時からアニメのおっぱいやら裸に聖なる光が射すようになったんだろう……

How in the world did that quote ever suggest there is more fan-service now than before. If anything it is suggesting the opposite that there are less fan-service materials now people can enjoy without censor.

Originally Posted by asaqe

But I wonder why over here cartoon artists don't have to do such things. I always felt if we nip it in the bud then the problem that some of us have with the artist industry will be solved.

Maybe because of different cultures and different moral values?!! Have you ever think about that?

Not only that, U.S. 2D animation industry is no where near as developed. Heck, even Disney don't to 2D animated films anymore. Personally I think U.S. ACG industries can use a little Ero-kick in the butt that they needs just to get their creative head rolling.

If you want the Japanese animation industry to be a dying breed like U.S. animation industry is, be my guest.

I, along with others, will stick with my good old Japanese animation and manga that is all encompassing with violence and sex, from slice-of-life to just bizarre&weird that I'm familiar with since the 80s.

[relentlessflame]

The thread starter has claimed that they just wanted to start a discussion on this topic without having a huge agenda. Whether that's the case or not, I'm not going to judge. But I can say that these sorts of threads always tend to revolve around a very common pattern:

1. Someone perceives that anime is getting worse than it was in the past for whatever reason. (Usually it's because there are less shows they like, or more shows they dislike.)
2. Said person postulates that a certain element of anime culture that they find distasteful/excessive/unpleasant/offensive/etc. is the root of "the problem with anime today".
3. Said person makes a forum thread to see if other people agree with their argument, sometimes offering "evidence" to make it seem like it's not just them saying so (an attempt to add credibility).
4. People who share the same negative feelings about the element identified in Step 2 will say that "it is the problem", whether it is an objectively-measurable problem or not. And other people will either try to point out that a) it is not a clearly-defined problem, b) it is not the problem with anime, or c) it is not a problem with anime at all.

Repeat ad nauseum. You have a complete jumble of people trying to define the problem, people trying to disprove the problem, and people trying to claim the problem is killing anime all nicely meshed together.


Really, this is just a survey thread without properly-defined questions. Questions such as:

1. How does the presence of sexual fanservice in modern TV anime affect your viewing and/or purchasing habits?
2. Have you perceived any changes in the type, quantity, nature, and presentation of sexual fanservice in TV anime in the last 5 years compared to earlier periods?
3. Do you feel that sexual fanservice in TV anime represents a problem or challenge for the industry, and why (or why not)?

I also want to point out again the potential for selection bias whenever making these sorts of "the grass was greener" arguments. If your selection of anime in the past was limited to the curated selection of "best hits" that aired on your local TV station or were popular in the day, and you're comparing it now to the full library of all shows airing on Japanese TV in every timeslot for every possible different demographic, it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison.


So anyway, this thread has been done many times before, and often with a much more clearly-defined premise. But if the thread is going to continue, I'd rather see it re-focus along some core questions so that we can at least have some sort of common ground and understanding. But if this is suppose to be a generic "everything wrong with fanservice, and everything is wrong with fanservice" thread (with a continual chorus of "no it's not, and no it isn't"), then it probably should just be closed since it's not going to be any more constructive and focused than the last 9 pages.

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

So anyway, this thread has been done many times before, and often with a much more clearly-defined premise. But if the thread is going to continue, I'd rather see it re-focus along some core questions so that we can at least have some sort of common ground and understanding. But if this is suppose to be a generic "everything wrong with fanservice, and everything is wrong with fanservice" thread (with a continual chorus of "no it's not, and no it isn't"), then it probably should just be closed since it's not going to be any more constructive and focused than the last 9 pages.

I completely agree with the above!

Also, since the thread starter added this bit of "news:"

Originally Posted by MisaoFan

There's another news when a chinese otaku ask japanese companies if they stop censoring fanservice anime anyway. The site I mentionned this was from japanese site full of chinese news.

I think that he's trying to keep the thread (and his point) alive, but that article has nothing to do with his opening post, nor what has been discussed in this thread thusfar. So, in my opinion, this thread has run its course and should be closed.

[Last Sinner]

MisaoFan and bigsocce are perennial blatant trolls. Could people stop rising to the bait and just ignore their threads? It's beyond ridiculous now.

[Undertaker]

@relentlessflame

But isn't that the problem to begin with?

The 3 questions you put out has all been brought up by the subjective minded posters and they (including me) offers the proof and facts to support those view to certain points.

On the other hand, the Thread starter, in this case MisaoFan, failed to offer any counter-argument against them except she keeps throwing out arbitrary references that supports her view (which by the were not very good) but didn't even bother on how those references would be relevant to her stand.

Instead the pattern I've see is that the subjective fans ends up keeping repeating the same thing just to different limited fans. Some comes to compromise, others disappear from conversation and than re-appears again when similar thread pops up.

Whth that being said though, I don't thinks the thread is no constructive. If anything I get to learn what other subjective fans feels about the subject and the references they pointed out was pretty informative.

BTW, I respect members like asaqe, who is willing to keep listening and defend her view (even if I don't agree) despite being counter-argued to death.


EDIT: CrowKenobi & Last Sinner beat me to it.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

The 3 questions you put out has all been brought up by the subjective minded posters and they (including me) offers the proof and facts to support those view to certain points.

This is basically because people tried to make a topic out of the thread, not because the questions were actually clear or defined in the first place. It's like improv. I could have just have easily started a thread with the topic "Fanservice is ruining anime" with the message "Discuss", and a conversation would ensue. (BTW, that is also known as "flamebait" and is not allowed. ) This is a hot button issue for a lot of people that produces strong emotions because it involves sexuality and perceived pandering (or rather, using sexual elements to "pander" to an audience). We allow these topics in general from time-to-time so that people can get it out of their system, but it's rather flammable and cyclic.

Originally Posted by Undertaker

Whth that being said though, I don't thinks the thread is no constructive. If anything I get to learn what other subjective fans feels about the subject and the references they pointed out was pretty informative.

Well, this is why I didn't close the thread to this point because -- again -- people were trying to make something out of it. But I think that we would be better served to try to again in the future with a clearer-topic, better questions, and a more neutral starting point.

So, for now, I think I'm going to close this thread; if someone has a good reason why this particular thread should be re-opened, they can PM me or one of the other staff with the argument.