To Aru Kagaku no Railgun S - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll

[Suryce]

It is not visible from Misaka point of view, but there is technically a solution for her to save the Sisters against Accelerator in an alternative ending involving the help of her friends instead of the Touma Deus Ex Machina, while respecting everything that has been established in the story and Raildex universe.

It's really simple actually, they just need to have one of the clones begging for her life while facing Accelerator (in other words, to make Shinobu's plan happens without reprogramming, which is not impossible considering the development we've ween from the clones in the last couples episodes). If Accelerator doesn't see them as disposable dolls anymore but as human beings who care for their own lives, he will stop killing them.

As a personal opinion, this would be a much better ending to this arc, because it is Misaka and her Sisters who've seen all the shit during this adventure and who deserve to get their happy ending with their own hands (and it would also gives a great closure to the Sisters quest for humanity and individuality). To integrate Misaka's friends in this would also be great.
But, of course, all of this is just a fantasy

[Chaos2Frozen]

^
And how many clones do you think they would have to watch die before the 'reprogramming' happened?

Befriend them in the day, get slaughtered at night.
Befriend them in the day, get slaughtered at night.

Rinse and repeat.

[RPG_Fanatic]

^
^
Not to mention, how would Misaka's friends be able to help with this reprogramming. Misaka being a Level 5 gives her some protection from the darkness of Academy City since she is very valuable. Misaka's friends don't have that protection, and Academy City would have no problem having them get into an accident to protect its secrets.
Trying to convince the sister's to live when they have been programmed to think of themselves as disposable lab rats would take alot of time and effort. Time, that Misaka doesn't want to spend since there would be more death.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Actually I don't think Academy City would strongly enforce this secret. Look at how long the rumors of a Level 5 clone have been around- As long as there is no hard incriminating evidence to tie them down, aka a dead body, they don't seem to particularly care since they let them walking all over the city doing whatever they want.

[RPG_Fanatic]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Actually I don't think Academy City would strongly enforce this secret. Look at how long the rumors of a Level 5 clone have been around- As long as there is no hard incriminating evidence to tie them down, aka a dead body, they don't seem to particularly care since they let them walking all over the city doing whatever they want.

The walking over the city part was probably to ensure certain individuals found them. Random sightings of the clones spreading rumors about a dead project is not a big issue, but random civilians finding out about the actual experiment would be a more serious one.

This is all speculation, so I can only make guesses.

[Sackett]

Obviously the bridge scene is the heart of this episode, and truly the heart of the whole arc.

I have to disagree with most of the posters here and say that I preferred the Index version. Not that this version was bad, and it had some parts I liked better, but the background music in particular was off note for me. It's a matter of taste, but I felt this scene needed understatement rather then emphasis. The subject matter is so powerful that to me it needs no support from the soundtrack, and as such the soundtrack was distracting to me.

It was still a good episode, but I had such high expectations that I'm going to have to give this a 7 out 10. (I'd put the Index version at 8 of 10 as it could be improved too).

Originally Posted by ahelo

This episode was just too awesome for words. That bridge scene - THAT BRIDGE SCENE. It was the same scene as the one from Index I but my god, it really just shows how character development and change of perspectives can change a good scene to an amazing one.

In that bridge scene in the Index version, Touma felt more like a badass. In the Railgun version though, he felt like Mikoto's prince charming, rescuing her from her predicament. I prefer prince charming.

I'd say that this is where the Railgun version is more powerful.

I'd been holding off on talking about this until this scene came up, but one of the reasons the Sister's Arc is so powerful is that it has a very classic story: The strong and powerful princess who learns that she can't do everything herself, and that yes, she needs a hero to rescue her. (It's also the type of story that goes very well with the Tsundere character type, as seen in stories with classic Tsundere characters from Akane Tendo to Asuka Langley).

I've actually seen several complaints about this aspect of the relationship between Touma and Mikoto. People complain that whenever Touma is around, Mikoto is turned into the helpless damsel who needs a hero to save her. (I'm sure Mikoto referring to herself as a damsel here will cause more heartburn for those critics.)

However, I don't think this is driven by a desire to show Mikoto as helpless. Rather it's about the relationship between Touma and Mikoto and evidence towards Mikoto being the main romantic interest for Touma.

If you read Booker's The Seven Basic Plots there is a lot of analysis about how important the relationship between the female lead and the male lead is to making a complete story. (Traditionally, happy endings end with a marriage, and tragic endings end with a funeral).

Mikoto is a fiercely independent girl. An essential part of her character development arc is her coming to accept that sometimes she needs help. This is combined with Touma as a romantic interest, and so Touma comes to symbolize her need for a male hero to be her match as a female heroine. As badass as she is, she is not complete without her male counterpart.

This is why Touma had several establishing character moments with Misaka in the first season of Railgun, (his initial meeting with Misaka, their fight on the riverbank, and his heroics during the early Level Upper arc), all of which have had flashbacks in Railgun's version of the Sisters Arc.

Taken all together, Mikoto's development and her changing view of Touma has actually been handled very well. On the other hand, Touma has not had a lot of character development himself. He always tries to get people to rely on him, but he won't rely on others. Touma ought to be moving in a similar arc towards realizing that he needs a heroine in his life who is matched well with him and can save him when he needs saving. (This is one of the reasons a lot of fanfiction has Touma actually call Mikoto and ask her for help with some problem, the fans instinctively realize that this is the important next step for Touma to develop properly).

This is why Railgun's Sisters Arcs is better then the Index version. In Railgun Mikoto is the main character and we see her development much better then Touma in Index.

Part of this is driven by the author's need to make Touma a semi-harem protagonist with multiple potential heroines, and Touma's resulting obliviousness to romance. As far as I can tell Mikoto is the only one that has been properly setup to truly play the other half role in a character development arc for Touma, (which is why Mikoto x Touma is the most popular pairing). The problem is that Touma is developing at glacier speed. Which always leaves open the possibility that one of the other heroines could shift into the romantic other half role.

[Suryce]

Originally Posted by Chaos2frozen

And how many clones do you think they would have to watch die before the 'reprogramming' happened?

Befriend them in the day, get slaughtered at night.
Befriend them in the day, get slaughtered at night.

Rinse and repeat.

Originally Posted by RPG Fanatic

Not to mention, how would Misaka's friends be able to help with this reprogramming. Misaka being a Level 5 gives her some protection from the darkness of Academy City since she is very valuable. Misaka's friends don't have that protection, and Academy City would have no problem having them get into an accident to protect its secrets.
Trying to convince the sister's to live when they have been programmed to think of themselves as disposable lab rats would take alot of time and effort. Time, that Misaka doesn't want to spend since there would be more death.

I said "without reprogramming". From the start, there was no need for something so drastic. The clones are evolving by themselves and have done enough to justify a twist of this sort by now.
Did you miss what happened in the recent episodes? For example, the whole thing about 10031 feeling almost physically hurt by Mikoto telling her to "go away"?
They put some much effort into developing the clones with those subtle little moments of humanity with the space they had considering the canonical story and you guys either didn't notice it or don't have faith in it? That's kind of sad.

Anyway, everything you need in order to write this alternative ending is already there in the true story. Have 10030 (instead of 10031) die during the experiment happening while Mikoto is attacking the lab after discovering Tree Diagram has been destroyed. Mikoto despairs at the bridge. Have Kuroko find the Level 6 Shift documents during her Mikoto's bed sniffing session. Kuroko finds Mikoto at the bridge (with Uiharu and Saten maybe). She challenges Mikoto suicidal intent. They both go the next experiment with 10031 and try to save her. 10031 finds out that Mikoto actually care for her, and this sudden realization is all you need to justify a change of behavior for 10031 and have her showing humanity in front of Accelerator.
Done.

As for Academy City being angry at Misaka and friends, they can do exactly what Touma do in Index to let time settle things down. Plus, if Academy City threatened one of Mikoto friend, they would make into an enemy again the same person that would have stopped by herself the mad Accelerator and what is probably their most important project ever. Sheer revenge is not worth such madness and counter-productive behavior.
They should be very happy if Mikoto is still willingly to live in Academy City after the whole mess that was the Level 6 Shift project.

[RPG_Fanatic]

Originally Posted by Suryce

I said "without reprogramming". From the start, there was no need for something so drastic. The clones are evolving by themselves and have done enough to justify a twist of this sort by now.
Did you miss what happened in the recent episodes? For example, the whole thing about 10031 feeling almost physically hurt by Mikoto telling her to "go away"?
They put some much effort into developing the clones with those subtle little moments of humanity with the space they had considering the canonical story and you guys either didn't notice it or don't have faith in it? That's kind of sad.

Anyway, everything you need in order to write this alternative ending is already there in the true story. Have 10030 (instead of 10031) die during the experiment happening while Mikoto is attacking the lab after discovering Tree Diagram has been destroyed. Mikoto despairs at the bridge. Have Kuroko find the Level 6 Shift documents during her Mikoto's bed sniffing session. Kuroko finds Mikoto at the bridge (with Uiharu and Saten maybe). She challenges Mikoto suicidal intent. They both go the next experiment with 10031 and try to save her. 10031 finds out that Mikoto actually care for her, and this sudden realization is all you need to justify a change of behavior for 10031 and have her showing humanity in front of Accelerator.
Done.

As for Academy City being angry at Misaka and friends, they can do exactly what Touma do in Index to let time settle things down. Plus, if Academy City threatened one of Mikoto friend, they would make into an enemy again the same person that would have stopped by herself the mad Accelerator and what is probably their most important project ever. Sheer revenge is not worth such madness and counter-productive behavior.
They should be very happy if Mikoto is still willingly to live in Academy City after the whole mess that was the Level 6 Shift project.

I'm not talking about literally reprogramming. It is not a matter of the clones acting like humans or displaying emotions. I'm talking about the fact that from birth, when Testement installs a basic set of knowledge in each Sister's brain, the fact that they are lab rats born to die is placed into their heads. This is not something that can be overcome just from displaying human emotions and attachments.

Taking 10031 feeling being hurt as an example, while Mikoto's rejection clearly hurt 10031, she did not let that interfere with the experiment and marched to her death like every other sister.

There is no guarantee that Mikoto going to help her Sister during an experiment will cause the Sister to start pleading for her life and break through the base programming that she is a lab rat. Even if that does happens and Accelerator is moved, that does nothing to change the Scientist's desire to create a Level 6.

I'm not talking about Acedamy City being angry at Misaka and friends for interfering. I'm talking about silencing insignificant (from Academy City's perspective) espers who know too much about Academy City's secrets. I won't go into more detail since it will be too spoilery and off-topic.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by Suryce

I said "without reprogramming". From the start, there was no need for something so drastic. The clones are evolving by themselves and have done enough to justify a twist of this sort by now.

If it were really that easy don't you think Shinobu would have just done that? Why would she have risked her life to reprogram them if she could have just talked to them and got them to show their emotions?

The fact of the matter is it would probably take a year or even more to get the sisters to show emotions. How many do you think would be killed by then?

Spoiler for Light Novel, not spoilers but important information:

Even by the middle of November they still can't show emotions. And that's with all of them being treated as humans 24/7.

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by Sackett

On the other hand, Touma has not had a lot of character development himself. He always tries to get people to rely on him, but he won't rely on others. Touma ought to be moving in a similar arc towards realizing that he needs a heroine in his life who is matched well with him and can save him when he needs saving. (This is one of the reasons a lot of fanfiction has Touma actually call Mikoto and ask her for help with some problem, the fans instinctively realize that this is the important next step for Touma to develop properly).

Spoiler for Comparison to Index:

No, Touma does rely on others, since the first story Touma always acepts help from others as long as he recognizes them to be able to stand in the same ground with him: Styil, Kanzaki, Index, Tsuchimikado to say the first 3 stories in the series(Sisters arc aside).

This is why Railgun's Sisters Arcs is better then the Index version. In Railgun Mikoto is the main character and we see her development much better then Touma in Index.

Spoiler for Comparison to Index:

You can see this from other perspective, aka from Touma's point of view.

Which one?

The one that comes from a person who has no memories, the will of the the former self he had and can only try to be like the person that doesn't exists anymore, maybe he won't become like the 'previous' Touma he wish to be but with that he can put aside any kind of doubts that his former self had issues with.

Part of this is driven by the author's need to make Touma a semi-harem protagonist with multiple potential heroines, and Touma's resulting obliviousness to romance. As far as I can tell Mikoto is the only one that has been properly setup to truly play the other half role in a character development arc for Touma, (which is why Mikoto x Touma is the most popular pairing). The problem is that Touma is developing at glacier speed. Which always leaves open the possibility that one of the other heroines could shift into the romantic other half role.

Read Vol.1 and Vol.2 of Index light novels to enlight yourself on this matter .

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by Wilfriback

Spoiler for Comparison to Index:

No, Touma does rely on others, since the first story Touma always acepts help from others as long as he recognizes them to be able to stand in the same ground with him: Styil, Kanzaki, Index, Tsuchimikado to say the first 3 stories in the series(Sisters arc aside).

Spoiler for Comparison to Index:

Touma has repeatedly demonstrated a preference to take care of things himself and not involve others. He has especially rejected help from Index on multiple occasions, and it is one of Index's constant complaints about him. In the instances you are referencing, Touma was not the one asking for help. Rather Styil, Kanzaki, and others were the ones with a problem, and Touma forcefully inserted himself in to help. I am speaking of instances where the problem does not originally involve a character and Touma reaches out to ask for help. The only one I can think of that he does that with is Tsuchimikado. And even in those cases Touma usually just wants information.

Spoiler for Comparison to Index:

You can see this from other perspective, aka from Touma's point of view.

Which one?

The one that comes from a person who has no memories, the will of the the former self he had and can only try to be like the person that doesn't exists anymore, maybe he won't become like the 'previous' Touma he wish to be but with that he can put aside any kind of doubts that his former self had issues with.

Spoiler for Reply to comparison:

Huh? I'm just pointing out that Railgun is a better perspective for the Sisters Arc because the main character is Mikoto instead of Touma. I really don't know what you are getting at with your response.

Read Vol.1 and Vol.2 of Index light novels to enlight yourself on this matter .

I have. Perhaps you should explain your disagreement instead of using emoticons.

[waffler]

just a question something i was confused with for a while but couldnt touma defeat accelerator without misaka help just by cancel out the plasma ball? o.o

[Shinhwa]

For now, every girl is in friend-zone for Touma. No romance involved much I think... for now.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Shinhwa

For now, every girl is in friend-zone for Touma. No romance involved much I think... for now.

The exception as to who he likes is clear: the main protagonist of Oreimo

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Suryce

I said "without reprogramming". From the start, there was no need for something so drastic. The clones are evolving by themselves and have done enough to justify a twist of this sort by now.
Did you miss what happened in the recent episodes? For example, the whole thing about 10031 feeling almost physically hurt by Mikoto telling her to "go away"?
They put some much effort into developing the clones with those subtle little moments of humanity with the space they had considering the canonical story and you guys either didn't notice it or don't have faith in it? That's kind of sad.

And it's neither ignorance nor cynicism. The Sister wouldn't change their behavior that easily, at least not to the point where they become fearful of death enough to drop to their knees and beg.

Just because they feel happiness and pain, doesn't mean they're afraid of death. They have died 10 000 times already, they're never going to be afraid of that.

Originally Posted by Suryce

Anyway, everything you need in order to write this alternative ending is already there in the true story. Have 10030 (instead of 10031) die during the experiment happening while Mikoto is attacking the lab after discovering Tree Diagram has been destroyed. Mikoto despairs at the bridge. Have Kuroko find the Level 6 Shift documents during her Mikoto's bed sniffing session. Kuroko finds Mikoto at the bridge (with Uiharu and Saten maybe). She challenges Mikoto suicidal intent. They both go the next experiment with 10031 and try to save her. 10031 finds out that Mikoto actually care for her, and this sudden realization is all you need to justify a change of behavior for 10031 and have her showing humanity in front of Accelerator.
Done.

How on Earth does knowing that Mikoto cares for her makes her fearful of death? That's a completely separate thing. If anything it would cause her to sacrifice herself to save Mikoto from being killed by Accelerator because that's the only way she knows how to save them- because she treasures them.

All that does is clear up a misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by Suryce

They should be very happy if Mikoto is still willingly to live in Academy City after the whole mess that was the Level 6 Shift project.

LOL no, you got it the wrong way. Mikoto should be happy that Academy City still lets her stay with them.

Do you really think she'll suddenly have a happy life outside of the City?

[BTDK]

May everybody have noticed this, Touma's cellphone is really superb like he is. Under EMP 2 billions V yet it was still stable. Compare to nokia? I love this lol <3

[lazydoggamer]

Suryce;Plus, if Academy City threatened one of Mikoto friend, they would make into an enemy again the same person that would have stopped by herself the mad Accelerator and what is probably their most important project ever. Sheer revenge is not worth such madness and counter-productive behavior.
They should be very happy if Mikoto is still willingly to live in Academy City after the whole mess that was the Level 6 Shift project.

Are we watching the same anime? Mikoto never came close to stopping the experiments and do you honestly think Academy City cares if Mikoto hates them. They have plenty of counters to take down an esper, like Capacity Down and it would be easy for them to arrange an "accident" for her friends.

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by lazydoggamer

Are we watching the same anime? Mikoto never came close to stopping the experiments and do you honestly think Academy City cares if Mikoto hates them. They have plenty of counters to take down an esper, like Capacity Down and it would be easy for them to arrange an "accident" for her friends.

Hmmm... my own conclusion (without posting spoilers) is that they do care if Mikoto hates them as they prefer her peaceful cooperation... They simply care more about other issues, so a conflict with those results in a compromise that is not in Mikoto's favor.

[BTDK]

Originally Posted by lazydoggamer

Are we watching the same anime? Mikoto never came close to stopping the experiments and do you honestly think Academy City cares if Mikoto hates them. They have plenty of counters to take down an esper, like Capacity Down and it would be easy for them to arrange an "accident" for her friends.

Tree Diagram confirmed there is no way to produce a Lvl 5, so they do care about #3 out of 7 Level 5. It's not just about what they want, they can't easily "erase" her and then announce it as nothing happens. Plus her strength surely helps them much on other occurences later.

[lazydoggamer]

Originally Posted by BTDK

Tree Diagram confirmed there is no way to produce a Lvl 5, so they do care about #3 out of 7 Level 5. It's not just about what they want, they can't easily "erase" her and then announce it as nothing happens. Plus her strength surely helps them much on other occurences later.

Sure they'd prefer if Mikoto works with them but they have no problem with ignoring what she wants like with the whole Sisters project. Also I never said Mikoto was expandable, I said her friends were, especially considering one is level zero and another a level 1.