(L) Mushoku Tensei: Isekai Ittara Honki Dasu (Jobless Reincarnation)

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Unless I hear a character from this world says that "tutor masturbating in a hallway is a normal thing", I don't buy that scene as "normal" within this universe.

Well, I doubt that that specific thing is normal, but everyone has their kinks .

Masturbating in the hallway is just as weird (if not more) as peeing or crapping in the hallway. And when the one who did it is a tutor/teacher, it is even more disturbing. And yes, you can find that fetish portrayed in a great number of hentai titles.

Well, she wouldn't be the first person to commit lewd acts in a spot where they're quite likely to get caught (although for some it might add to the appeal of doing it). I mean, I wasn't disturbed by it that much, but that's just me.

Originally Posted by Twi

Her age doesn't get mentioned for... quite a while judging from what I remember. But honestly, no one think she's a minor and they mentioned you're an adult when you're 15, so no one is really going to question that. Again, its not the fact that she was doing the deed. It's the fact that someone who is categorized as somewhat ditzy but genius wizard was doing it out where she could get caught by either the maid or her student, who lives on the same floor. It feels contrived, serves no real purpose other than fanservice, and ultimately adds very little to her character in the year and a half she's been with them.

Well, it establishes that seems very sexually frustrated and probably very lonely, to where she humors a kid confessing to her that she'll wait for him to feel the same way in 10 years .

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I'm less blowing it up and more pointing it out how weird, indecent & hentai-pandering it is. It also unnecessarily diminish her character to a degree (given the implications) which is too bad coz I like her enough. Everything could've been fine if they just change the place where she masturbates to a more private place. Something simple like that that differenciate between good, average & bad writing qualities.

Still, if you're having fun with that scene then you do you.

I think the indecency is definitely intentional with the kind of act it is, and I think where she does it says enough as is, but for me it made her seem more human. I think if it were really pandering they would've structured the visuals entirely differently. It felt more natural the way it was depicted in my opinion.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Twi

I agree with you.

But I also have to consider who this kind of story is written for. Namely Otaku who would relate to the him. Just about every Isekai panders to that specific person, because most of the guys who get delivered to a new world via vehicular homicide copying this formula aren't exactly people who would deserve to get reincarnated if we were really measuring it on a scale compared to productive members of society outside of a vacuum.

I understand the explanation, but I don't accept the excuse. Sure you've suffered somewhat unrealistic levels of bullying so it's fine to spend the rest of your youth as a degenerate hikikomori mooching off of your parents. And when they die in grief, don't bother going to their funeral and jack off to what looks like loli porn. When the men of the family kick you out, leaving you to starve on the streets, just throw yourself in front of a truck to save some strangers and you'll get reincarnated in a world of magic and swords to a loving family with hot chicks all around. I haven't been this infuriated since Caillou.

My basis of questioning whether he deserved this chance has nothing to do with him being a degenerate otaku and an unproductive member of society. It's the truck accident. This guy had no future except to die starving on the streets. If he wasn't suicidal, he sure as hell had no attachments to his own life so what was the big deal in him throwing it away to save some kids? This isn't sacrifice because he didn't even value his own life. Had he not been a degenerate otaku and lived a happy life, would he have done the same?

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I've watched a lot of isekai, and while I won't deny that "reward" is one of the paths taken (one of my favorites, at least in the LN/manga version, has a girl rewarded for saving a child whose ideas would avert mankind's eventual doom), it's hardly that prevalent. Very frequently, it's either done as an apology for some deity's involvement or failure to stop the event, or just random chance. Seriously, most reincarnation series I've read make no claim of "rewarding" the MC, it just sort of happens. At most, I'd say this was meant to show that as awful as he is, he still had some good in him, enough to jump in and save others despite personal fear.

And I'd have to disagree with you about it being so unbelievable that a person would fail twice. Maintaining memories as well as initial personality is a big setback, as we've already seen. He had to push himself hard and still couldn't leave his house due to the continued trauma of his past. He's still got a lot of what he was before, and is struggling to change it. Just because you have a new body doesn't necessarily mean you're a new person, and if you can't overcome the weaknesses and vices that led you to ruin before, then obviously you'll fall once more. And again the story seems to frame itself around just that: a man struggling to do things right this time, to prove that, scum as he himself knows he was, he can indeed be a good, respectable man.

I can understand you having a strong dislike for the character. This series isn't for everyone, and if your initial take on the character leads you to this degree of derision toward it then that's fine, I'm just saying I see it differently.

True, what I meant to say was tensei and there is slime tensei this season. When did the bar for good drop so low? If he wasn't outright suicidal, he definitely had no attachments to his own life. There are people who cherish their lives, but choose to sacrifice themselves to save strangers out of the goodness of their hearts. These people are will to sacrifice something precious to them to save someone else. This guy ain't one of them. If he hadn't been a degenerate otaku and instead lived a normal life, would he have done the same?

He's literally starting with a new life with none of his previous relationships as an infant. He has the advantage of his previous experiences to focus and excel in fields ahead of time that will benefit him in his later years. This setback can't be considered anything.

Is he respectable? His regrets regarding his former life seems focused on his own lot in life. I haven't seen a single thought spared to his original parents who had to put up with him. And I can't imagine his current parents would be joyful to learn they've been chosen to be the new family for a degenerate otaku manchild. On that note, don't they deserve to know?

[thundrakkon]

Quote

Originally Posted by Frontier

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Was it green? It was hard to tell with the yellow sunset light. Also, a Superd has a red jewel on the forehead, and I didn't see any on what looks like an elf girl.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Frontier

I think the indecency is definitely intentional with the kind of act it is, and I think where she does it says enough as is, but for me it made her seem more human. I think if it were really pandering they would've structured the visuals entirely differently. It felt more natural the way it was depicted in my opinion.

If the goal is to make her more human & relatable to the audience, changing the location to a more private place is way more effective since that's more normal and acceptable. What we actually got made her seem more nympho-ish .

[Anh_Minh]

I wonder how much of his bullying was real and how much was just him hallucinating.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I wonder how much of his bullying was real and how much was just him hallucinating.

Haha. Too OTT to be believed?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Also, the picture that you posted was a drawing of a mythological demihuman (satyr?) that's well-known for their often-uncontrollable sexual drive. That is not a representation of the Greek society, just like how all their naked statues do not represent their everyday lives. I don't think Greek scholars & teachers can masturbate in public wherever the hell they want without facing social/academic consequences.

It was not a fantastical Satyr that displayed that kind of picture on their vases in a public room. The point is that masturbation didn't have the social stigma that it had in medieval Europe, where that kind of pictures would have been burned and destroyed.

Roxy's behavior could be seen as shameful at worst, but not abnormal for a girl of her age.

As for why did she needto be in the hallway instead of a more private place, that's like asking why do people masturbate while watching porn, instead of watching it first and then masturbating later.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It was not a fantastical Satyr that displayed that kind of picture on their vases in a public room. The point is that masturbation didn't have the social stigma that it had in medieval Europe, where that kind of pictures would have been burned and destroyed.

Drawings & action are two very different cases. Are you saying that if a person of age & of professional career started to masturbate in public in medieval Europe like England, Ireland, France, German, Greece, Spain, etc everybody around him would just treat him/her normally? I call BS on that.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Roxy's behavior could be seen as shameful at worst, but not abnormal for a girl of her age.

Like I said, I still need a confirmation from an authoritative character in this universe before believing that it's normal.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As for why did she needto be in the hallway instead of a more private place, that's like asking why do people masturbate while watching porn, instead of watching it first and then masturbating later.

Bad comparison because your "watching porn" comparison doesn't involve "in open/public place" that is the core problem of the scene. Which also proved that Roxy lacks sexual self control which I blame the writer for that more than anything. He/she decided to just bring a fetish from a hentai/eroge for the lulz without much consideration for the character.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by bakato

I understand the explanation, but I don't accept the excuse. Sure you've suffered somewhat unrealistic levels of bullying so it's fine to spend the rest of your youth as a degenerate hikikomori mooching off of your parents. And when they die in grief, don't bother going to their funeral and jack off to what looks like loli porn. When the men of the family kick you out, leaving you to starve on the streets, just throw yourself in front of a truck to save some strangers and you'll get reincarnated in a world of magic and swords to a loving family with hot chicks all around. I haven't been this infuriated since Caillou.

My basis of questioning whether he deserved this chance has nothing to do with him being a degenerate otaku and an unproductive member of society. It's the truck accident. This guy had no future except to die starving on the streets. If he wasn't suicidal, he sure as hell had no attachments to his own life so what was the big deal in him throwing it away to save some kids? This isn't sacrifice because he didn't even value his own life. Had he not been a degenerate otaku and lived a happy life, would he have done the same?

True, what I meant to say was tensei and there is slime tensei this season. When did the bar for good drop so low? If he wasn't outright suicidal, he definitely had no attachments to his own life. There are people who cherish their lives, but choose to sacrifice themselves to save strangers out of the goodness of their hearts. These people are will to sacrifice something precious to them to save someone else. This guy ain't one of them. If he hadn't been a degenerate otaku and instead lived a normal life, would he have done the same?

He's literally starting with a new life with none of his previous relationships as an infant. He has the advantage of his previous experiences to focus and excel in fields ahead of time that will benefit him in his later years. This setback can't be considered anything.

Is he respectable? His regrets regarding his former life seems focused on his own lot in life. I haven't seen a single thought spared to his original parents who had to put up with him. And I can't imagine his current parents would be joyful to learn they've been chosen to be the new family for a degenerate otaku manchild. On that note, don't they deserve to know?

I think at the heart of it is that none of what he did was right or really solved any of his problems, but that there was enough in him to want to save people. I don't know if that's what qualified him for the reincarnation but it shows that there was still light in him within the dark and grimy excess that he had become at that point.

And now he has a chance to do-over his life and move on from the person he used to be. I think his flashback to his parents trying to get him to come out of his shell and him lashing out at them were to build up to his desire to change and accept that the world isn't always the way he thought it was.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

If the goal is to make her more human & relatable to the audience, changing the location to a more private place is way more effective since that's more normal and acceptable. What we actually got made her seem more nympho-ish .

I don't think humans always do what's normal and acceptable (not that she even is human, but that's besides the point) so it didn't really bother me that much .

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Bad comparison because your "watching porn" comparison doesn't involve "in open/public place" that is the core problem of the scene. Which also proved that Roxy lacks sexual self control which I blame the writer for that more than anything. He/she decided to just bring a fetish from a hentai/eroge for the lulz without much consideration for the character.

I don't know if we can really blame the author so much as that just being part of the character and meant to be as informative (potentially) as her self-doubt and demon heritage.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by bakato

My basis of questioning whether he deserved this chance has nothing to do with him being a degenerate otaku and an unproductive member of society. It's the truck accident. This guy had no future except to die starving on the streets. If he wasn't suicidal, he sure as hell had no attachments to his own life so what was the big deal in him throwing it away to save some kids? This isn't sacrifice because he didn't even value his own life. Had he not been a degenerate otaku and lived a happy life, would he have done the same?



True, what I meant to say was tensei and there is slime tensei this season. When did the bar for good drop so low? If he wasn't outright suicidal, he definitely had no attachments to his own life. There are people who cherish their lives, but choose to sacrifice themselves to save strangers out of the goodness of their hearts. These people are will to sacrifice something precious to them to save someone else. This guy ain't one of them. If he hadn't been a degenerate otaku and instead lived a normal life, would he have done the same?

He's literally starting with a new life with none of his previous relationships as an infant. He has the advantage of his previous experiences to focus and excel in fields ahead of time that will benefit him in his later years. This setback can't be considered anything.

Is he respectable? His regrets regarding his former life seems focused on his own lot in life. I haven't seen a single thought spared to his original parents who had to put up with him. And I can't imagine his current parents would be joyful to learn they've been chosen to be the new family for a degenerate otaku manchild. On that note, don't they deserve to know?

It's clear we won't be able to disagree on this, our perspectives are too different. I feel like you're, deliberately or not, underestimating and overestimating things where it suits your view on it, and I'm pretty sure you see me the same way.

For starters, you're really understating (in my opinion) the impact of personality and psychology. It's not easy to set aside one's traumas, and even harder to set aside years and years of fear and despair and denial, shutting anything and everything out. It's true, going from a young age you can learn skills to improve your chances at getting a good job or something (though it'd be harder to determine what is needed when you're in a completely new world, which could put you down a few notches), but there's a big difference between teaching yourself a trade and remaking yourself into a person who can make friends and function in society.

On top of that, you're kind of exaggerating his state when he died. Having everything taken away from you does not equate to having no attachments to anything. The things he was saying, he wasn't thinking he had nothing to live for or that he should just end it all. He was bitter and angry at best. There was no evidence he was in a state where he could see the truck as any kind of release or anything like that.

And again, you're insisting that this has to be seen as a "reward", which I find frankly ludicrous. Just because he did something good right before dying doesn't mean his rebirth was a reward. And as I've said, reward is only one path I've seen done for reincarnation. It's more frequently either a random event (I recall a certain wannabe librarian for whom this was the case, and in Shield Hero the hero's cause of death is a mystery but death is how people are transferred), or an apology for an accident (like how in Smartphone God accidentally let a bolt of lightning fall). I'd say, instead of a reward, this was more of a last redeeming act, not a selfless act that makes him deserving of a second life but a simple demonstration that he's not completely unredeemable.

Anyway, if you're that unhappy about it, I'd suggest you read the manga or light novel. There were a few lines that give a bit more insight into his position (and plenty more later on as he does grow and improve). I've noticed that's sort of a thing with anime adaptations. In order to save time, frequently lines and bits that add to a character get cut, resulting in the main characters becoming bland (or blander in some cases), or losing things that may impact one's take on situations. If you read the manga/LN and still can't support the character, then all I can say is you can either wait and see if this opinion changes or find a show with a character you can actually like.

[maximilianjenus]

the thing about rudys past bullying is that it was not meant to justify him as a person, its mean to show why he became a hikikomori and why roxy is so important to him.

[Twi]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Roxy's behavior could be seen as shameful at worst, but not abnormal for a girl of her age.

Yeah, about that. Please remember she's not human, so her looks don't reflect her age.

[Proto]

And here I thought the thread would be discussing about how cool a water spell that was at the end.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Proto

And here I thought the thread would be discussing about how cool a water spell that was at the end.

Is "CUMOLNIMBUS!" the new "EXPLOSION" ?

[Twi]

Originally Posted by Proto

And here I thought the thread would be discussing about how cool a water spell that was at the end.

What the rainstorm? It was nice, but not remotely practical for combat and we've seen Roxy do a lesser form when she watered the villager's crops during that drought, which is more practical. There are very few times when calling up a massive thunderstorm that you can't control the lightning strikes from are practical. If anything I felt bad for the horse getting hit by the lightning.

[BWTraveller]

I mentioned it before, but it's a pity they couldn't include just how Rudy innovated it, making a supercell thunderstorm so the rotating updraft would maintain it for at least an hour without him having to continuously pour in mana to keep it going.

But yeah, Cumulonimbus does not strike me (sorry Carravaggio) as a reasonable combat magic technique. But then again, combat isn't the only purpose to magic. If I recall right from the manga/LN a big part of the reason people warmed up to Roxy so much is because she gave them rain when the weather was getting dry. In a time of drought, a mage who can cast a spell like that every few days would be a godsend.

[Proto]

There are very few times when calling up a massive thunderstorm that you can't control the lightning strikes from are practical. If anything I felt bad for the horse getting hit by the lightning.

They are indeed limited but it could have good tactical uses, specially at sea to impede the passing of ships. Could be good during naval warfare.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Proto

They are indeed limited but it could have good tactical uses, specially at sea to impede the passing of ships. Could be good during naval warfare.

Let's not forget it would be damn useful if confronted with a swarm of flying adversaries or simply to nullify a volley f arrows or rocks thrown by catapults. I haven't read the original material, but IMO so far this is more jojo than dragonball.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Haha. Too OTT to be believed?

Yes, especially the bit where a bunch of guys have nothing better to do than wait for him to look out of his window so they can mock him.

Plus he's shown signs of hallucinating stuff.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

It's clear we won't be able to disagree on this, our perspectives are too different. I feel like you're, deliberately or not, underestimating and overestimating things where it suits your view on it, and I'm pretty sure you see me the same way.

For starters, you're really understating (in my opinion) the impact of personality and psychology. It's not easy to set aside one's traumas, and even harder to set aside years and years of fear and despair and denial, shutting anything and everything out. It's true, going from a young age you can learn skills to improve your chances at getting a good job or something (though it'd be harder to determine what is needed when you're in a completely new world, which could put you down a few notches), but there's a big difference between teaching yourself a trade and remaking yourself into a person who can make friends and function in society.

On top of that, you're kind of exaggerating his state when he died. Having everything taken away from you does not equate to having no attachments to anything. The things he was saying, he wasn't thinking he had nothing to live for or that he should just end it all. He was bitter and angry at best. There was no evidence he was in a state where he could see the truck as any kind of release or anything like that.

And again, you're insisting that this has to be seen as a "reward", which I find frankly ludicrous. Just because he did something good right before dying doesn't mean his rebirth was a reward. And as I've said, reward is only one path I've seen done for reincarnation. It's more frequently either a random event (I recall a certain wannabe librarian for whom this was the case, and in Shield Hero the hero's cause of death is a mystery but death is how people are transferred), or an apology for an accident (like how in Smartphone God accidentally let a bolt of lightning fall). I'd say, instead of a reward, this was more of a last redeeming act, not a selfless act that makes him deserving of a second life but a simple demonstration that he's not completely unredeemable.

Anyway, if you're that unhappy about it, I'd suggest you read the manga or light novel. There were a few lines that give a bit more insight into his position (and plenty more later on as he does grow and improve). I've noticed that's sort of a thing with anime adaptations. In order to save time, frequently lines and bits that add to a character get cut, resulting in the main characters becoming bland (or blander in some cases), or losing things that may impact one's take on situations. If you read the manga/LN and still can't support the character, then all I can say is you can either wait and see if this opinion changes or find a show with a character you can actually like.

Not at all, but while all that may suffice as an explanation, it is not an excuse. You seem to be overlooking the sheer advantages and the lack of challenges he is presented with. There are no demands made of him in this second life. There have only been opportunities at every turn. How much easier could this get? The bar has dropped to the ground so that it's easier to step over it rather than limbo under it.

I do not make light of the prospect of homelessness and I hope you don't either. You place great emphasis on his trauma, but somehow handwave the realization he wasted his life and now has nothing. I only stated the facts. He has nothing but regrets. He may not have been suicidal, wanting to die, but did he even want to live? His circumstances do not suggest any reason for wanting live.

Frankly, it's difficult to not connect his final act of "sacrifice" with his reincarnation based on the presentation.

We are watching an anime and I judge it based on its own merits.