Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Key Board

No, I can see that it definitely would take more than 13 episode to effectively tell the story of StrikerS

but I see no reason why it had to force it to 26 episodes

weren't there some 20 episode anime in the past? what's wrong with non standard numbering?

I'm more of the opinion that StrikerS is a ~40 episode story stuck into 26 episodes. Somewhere about half way (probably after they drew a whole bunch of Vivio scenes thinking they'd still have a lot of time for everyone else), they realized this, so they really accelerated the thing, glossing over or flat deleting many side plot and details. Then around 19-20ish, they realized they are in trouble again because now they've cut too much and there's still 6 episodes to go. So now we have this stretched farce.

Overall, StrikerS gave me all the feelings of an ambitious project that turned out to be beyond their abilities. When they belatedly realized this, their clumsily attempts to correct it only made it worse.

[Estavali]

According to Nanoha tradition, they have only 3 episodes to end all this chaos nicely, since the last episode has always been the wrap-up/epilogue episode.

Let's see how they'll achieve this, without doing a Fukuda.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I'm more of the opinion that StrikerS is a ~40 episode story stuck into 26 episodes. Somewhere about half way (probably after they drew a whole bunch of Vivio scenes thinking they'd still have a lot of time for everyone else), they realized this, so they really accelerated the thing, glossing over or flat deleting many side plot and details. Then around 19-20ish, they realized they are in trouble again because now they've cut too much and there's still 6 episodes to go. So now we have this stretched farce.

Overall, StrikerS gave me all the feelings of an ambitious project that turned out to be beyond their abilities. When they belatedly realized this, their clumsily attempts to correct it only made it worse.

Agreed. Either they cut down on what to put in in the very first place, or they give themselves enough time to flesh out everything necessary. In short, 26 episodes with lesser material, or 40~50 episodes with everything well-developed. I should think that such a decision is much more desirable than stuffing too much stuff into 25~26 episodes.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Estavali

According to Nanoha tradition, they have only 3 episodes to end all this chaos nicely, since the last episode has always been the wrap-up/epilogue episode.

Let's see how they'll achieve this, without doing a Fukuda.

Fukuda?

Bah strikers was nothing but hell ever since the 2nd half of the season begun

[Key Board]

team lightning... feels as if it belong in another story. In fact, in Caro's case, I have the impression that she was just created to give Lutecia a rival.

I see two distinctive elements about StrikerS that was probably not intended to go along with each other?

I have the impression that season 3 was supposed to introduce caro and erio, while the primary villains being Lutecia, Zest and agito

season 4 was supposed to be about Subaru, Ginga and Teana, while Scag and the numbers being the primary villains

somehow.. I think they merged the concepts together..

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I had hoped the it would be Lightning's turn in terms of developments after the half mark...

That's why I put up with Stars.

But,then an idiot girl name vivio came by and ruined everything!

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Adr 00

But,then an idiot girl name vivio came by and ruined everything!

Well, that's one way of putting it.

But I prefer the term 'evil'

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by Adr 00

Fukuda?

Bah strikers was nothing but hell ever since the 2nd half of the season begun

I'm a bit more optimistic than you are , and despite the slow pace and stuff, things are still quite okay for me. Letting complaints get in the way of enjoying what I can have is quite the sin, I say.

Things could have been better, I agree, but if I really can't stand it, I would have quit it like Hayate no Gotoku (which had gotten on my nerves) long ago instead of allowing it to continue torturing me.

Either I'm too big a fan to give up, or things haven't gotten to the point of no return to make me reconsider the risk I'm subjecting to my wallet by downloading the flsnow subs (you folks should know that farce happening lately in my lovely little Singapore).

Now, let's get back to the actual discussion ...

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Well, that's one way of putting it.

But I prefer the term 'evil'

I prefer "mis-used" or "not used to her full potential". Vivio could have been MORE than just moe stock.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Estavali

Agreed. Either they cut down on what to put in in the very first place, or they give themselves enough time to flesh out everything necessary. In short, 26 episodes with lesser material, or 40~50 episodes with everything well-developed. I should think that such a decision is much more desirable than stuffing too much stuff into 25~26 episodes.

Actually, they could have the 40 episode material with the 26 episodes. As I've said before, the trick is to use many half episodes. Half episodes subtly force the show's pacing faster - half episodes can easily contain nearly as much content as a full one in most cases. In fact, you'd often be surprised that a half-episode took only 10 minutes instead of 20 because it feels like you've watched 20 minutes of stuff.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Well, that's one way of putting it.

But I prefer the term 'evil'

or like this:

But then a malicious, conniving,horrifying ,terrifying,monsterous scourge named vivio came and devoured the plot opportunity for team lightning's development

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Estavali

I prefer "mis-used" or "not used to her full potential". Vivio could have been MORE than just moe stock.

She could still be more, but at this point, it'll only be a one-spur drama stock.

She could be more meaningful had they really tried to explore the lines of the Doctor's recreation of life ethics alongside the background history of the Saint Church, and all, but at this point, it really feels... out there.

It's like the Star Wars movies trying to link itself to the Expanded Universe when it's really just about Luke and Vader.

As for the pacing, I'll say that they REALLY took their sweet time with the 'happy time' episodes in the first half, especially when half character bonding scenes were there just for the sake of being there, and it's not like they had a lot of development.

I mean, when the last 3 'non-battle' episodes dedicated a bulk of it to talking history of Sentoukijin, Seioh, and stuff in a badly directed manner, it shows.

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Actually, they could have the 40 episode material with the 26 episodes. As I've said before, the trick is to use many half episodes. Half episodes subtly force the show's pacing faster - half episodes can easily contain nearly as much content as a full one in most cases. In fact, you'd often be surprised that a half-episode took only 10 minutes instead of 20 because it feels like you've watched 20 minutes of stuff.

Hmm, the key would then be plot management and pacing, selection of which story elements to include and expand on, and perhaps most importantly, what to exclude (cut the crap, so as to say)?

Originally Posted by Nightengale

She could still be more, but at this point, it'll only be a one-spur drama stock.

She could be more meaningful had they really tried to explore the lines of the Doctor's recreation of life ethics alongside the background history of the Saint Church, and all, but at this point, it really feels... out there.

It's like the Star Wars movies trying to link itself to the Expanded Universe when it's really just about Luke and Vader, which was what it did.

So StrikerS from midway is pretty much a Nanoha and Vivio thing then?

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Estavali

Now, let's get back to the actual discussion ...

What to say ?

How badly is Subaru getting her rear handed to her ?

Originally Posted by Estavali

I prefer "mis-used" or "not used to her full potential". Vivio could have been MORE than just moe stock.

Of course of course...

...But she's still evil.

Originally Posted by Adr 00

Ahhh... Ermm... Well...

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Estavali

Hmm, the key would then be plot management and pacing, selection of which story elements to include and expand on, and perhaps most importantly, what to exclude (cut the crap, so as to say)?

Well, if you ask me, there was a lot of 'seemingly important reinforcement of already shown stuff.'

The Hayate/Auris talk about Regius's skeletons. Really, all it needed was a several minutes implication in a Regius/Auris scene or something, but look at how much time was dedicated to it. Especially after the brains said it AGAIN that Regius was an important pawn to them. From his scene with the Council, Zest and himself being angry, we already know Regius was shady and he was only a pawn. Did we need Hayate to ACTUALLY go over his history? And it's not like Hayate got any character development we didn't know already of her in that situation.

The Nanoha-Fate fanservice. I don't mind fanservice, but couldn't they had made it Nanoha-Fate-Hayate fanservice instead and randomly throw in different pairs of 2 like Nanoha-Hayate and Fate-Hayate depending on the situation? We've known LONG since A's how the NF dynamics work, couldn't they try to at least introduce a fresher dimension to it in a more substansial manner? Otherwise, NFanservice only repeated the same old fanservice over and over.

Vice's step-by-step character development, in my opinion... had little meaning. It's so...standalone, it's relevance to the other characters, much less the plot didn't deserve the time it was spent on. It's not like he was a major character, even.

At times, it really felt like they introduced element A in one part, spent few minutes on element A development for another, a few minutes to repeat the same thing for element A in another, and close it abruptly, when it could just be done in 2 parts.

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

What to say ?

How badly is Subaru getting her rear handed to her ?

She seems to be taking the worst damage of the team, I think, both emotionally and physically. The pain from Ginga's punches are not something to put off, but I think what hurts her most was that Ginga doesn't seem to be coming to her senses at all. And with the gap between their skill level and killing intent, Subaru is nowhere coming close to waking her up.

Of course of course...

...But she's still evil.

I dare say, if anyone would to throw a challenge "How would you develop Vivio from the very moment E&C found her?" to the talented folks in the OC and fanfic thread, the responses should be very fruitful and interesting.

Of course, should that happen, it'll only make Seven Arcs look even worse .

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Estavali

She seems to be taking the worst damage of the team, I think, both emotionally and physically. The pain from Ginga's punches are not something to put off, but I think what hurts her most was that Ginga doesn't seem to be coming to her senses at all. And with the gap between their skill level and killing intent, Subaru is nowhere coming close to waking her up.

Now that they revealed that she's part machine, they could afford to have her soak up some beating.

And Though expected, I still don't like Subaru holding back (you KNOW she is).

Originally Posted by Estavali

I dare say, if anyone would to throw a challenge "How would you develop Vivio from the very moment E&C found her?" to the talented folks in the OC and fanfic thread, the responses should be very fruitful and interesting.

Of course, should that happen, it'll only make Seven Arcs look even worse .

And I was wondering when somebody was going to say that

What... Do you THINK the rules should be... IF, there was such a thing?

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Estavali

Hmm, the key would then be plot management and pacing, selection of which story elements to include and expand on, and perhaps most importantly, what to exclude (cut the crap, so as to say)?

Actually, the nice thing about the 10-minute half episode is that you don't have to think much about cutting the plot points. All you do is speed up the pacing. Instead of cutting out a 3 minute Vivio scene as un-necessary, you simply speed it up (for example, let Vivio struggle for only 5 seconds instead of 10 before Fate goes to pick her up, a little less talk before Fate moves in ... etc) so it is over in 90 seconds. And it'd still look perfectly natural to the viewer. Most scenes longer than say 30 seconds or so can be subtly done using this method, and the only tough decisions are for those that are originally<30 secs.

When the viewer reaches the commercial break after ten minutes, he's going to subconsciously review what he had learnt by counting up the different scenes. And it'd feel like he's been through a 20-minute episode until he looks at the clock. Something has been cut obviously but it'd is hard to say what extra stuff could have been covered if the Episode was 20 minutes long. He'd be very satisfied with the parts that he liked because the important parts were covered, while the annoying parts (Vivio) become less annoying because it is shorter chronologically. Everyone wins, just like JPEG compression in the time axis.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Well, that's one way of putting it.

But I prefer the term 'evil'

Oh come on it's not her fault the writers couldn't find away to write around her. She had a lot of possibilities and I think she still dose after all the series isn't over yet...

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Oh come on it's not her fault the writers couldn't find away to write around her.

Now now, lets not play that card. After all, there's a certain other character that I've been defending for a long time because the writers didn't use him properly...

Now it's 'That group''s turn to go down

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

She had a lot of possibilities and I think she still dose after all the series isn't over yet...

That's the problem isn't it? Suddenly it's all about her. There's been too much about her.

Well she had her chance!

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Now now, lets not play that card. After all, there's a certain other character that I've been defending for a long time because the writers didn't use him properly...

Now it's 'That group''s turn to go down



That's the problem isn't it? Suddenly it's all about her. There's been too much about her.

Well she had her chance!

Soooo cold... Man Chaos your breaking my heart here.

I still don't care what everyone else says.

I'm whole heartedly in love with Vivi-chan and won't set back excepting the death wishes people have forced on her!

Even if she does die (and she WON'T) I will keep her memory alive as long as humanly possible! I will not let her name be written off as just some "moe stock" or "plot device" because I know there is more to her then that!

[arkhangelsk]

I'd believe the "there's more than that' part when I see it.