Fate/stay night Heaven's Feel Movie Discussion Thread

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by mirakura

That said, it's probably because 'my logic is idiotic'. Yesh remember who said that?

I don't remember who said that. I assume Shirou, but that was not the point about this discussion. I only wanted to highlight that having seen Fate/Zero spoils the reveal in HF to the viewer about Ilya being Shirou's stepsister.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I just remembered that UBW is the only route where Shirou developes any kind of fighting skills. At the end of UBW he already had at least 10% of Heroic Spirit Emiya's power, since he was able to beat Heroic Spirit Emiya who was at 10% of his powers.

Once he developes his magic circuit enough he should be a damn powerful mage. He "cheated" to know the fighting techniques that are best fitted for him early on and also learned what kind of magic is most accustomed to him. Just imagine the terror of a random mage that tries to fight Shirou in the future. Then UBW gets casted, which gives Shirou the offensive power that almost equals GoB. It may not be enough against an enemy Servant, but against other mages he should be able to fare pretty well.

Also generally his projection ability with a bit of strenghening magic should make him good enough even without UBW. Not to mention his talent as an Archer...

From what I remember In the epilogue of UBW Shirou was starting to forget Archer's existence. I think it was said or I assumed he was also forgetting the fighting knowledge he gained from Archer, but I could be wrong.

Of course further in the future it gets evened out between UBW and HF, as it was stated that Shirou would be able to use his reality marble in HF as well in the future. It is never stated how it is in Fate though... depending on how he decides to live, he may or may not develop his skills there as well.

I have forgotten what Rin's reasoning was in HF to conclude that Shirou would be able to use his reality marble, I don't remember him having used it in HF. Did she know Archer could use a reality marble in HF and assumed Shirou could also use it because of it? even without the help of Archer's arm? This makes me think of another question, did Shirou keep the skills and knowledge he received from the arm after losing it?

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by mirakura

That said, it's probably because 'my logic is idiotic'. Yesh remember who said that?

I was the one who said that. And it was regarding this train of thought:

Originally Posted by mirakura

The VN came out first right? That means more people have played it.

Not my fault if you think I in general insulted your logic. Chill.

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

I have forgotten what Rin's reasoning was in HF to conclude that Shirou would be able to use his reality marble, I don't remember him having used it in HF. Did she know Archer could use a reality marble in HF and assumed Shirou could also use it because of it? even without the help of Archer's arm? This makes me think of another question, did Shirou keep the skills and knowledge he received from the arm after losing it.

Rin knows who Archer is and she thinks she knows how Shirou's projection works (well, she misunderstood, she thought he needed the Azoth Sword to create Zelretch). She only needed to look at the things Shirou projected in his shed to see he is a freak (because of his Reality Marble).

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

[...]
From what I remember In the epilogue of UBW Shirou was starting to forget Archer's existence. I think it was said or I assumed he was also forgetting the fighting knowledge he gained from Archer, but I could be wrong.
[...]

In the epilogue Rin mentioned about "keeping the reality marble a secret", so it seems he is still aware of Unlimited Blade Works (which may be because his version is different, e.g. no gears in the background), but he cannot use it without the necessary mana supply... well but since they will live together in a single room, that does not seem to be a problem, when necessary... as for his fighting abilities... I guess they were probably considerably lower, but not completely gone, he mostly used them against Archer so he probably forgot those moments, but it is possible that he still remembers using those techniques against Kuzuki and Gilgamesh, so maybe he still remembers a part of it.

And he still has his natural talent for archery, but that is of course not unique to the UBW route.

EDIT: The reality marble is something that is constantly present, so if you do certain examinations, it is probably possible to confirm the existence of the reality marble inside a person, which probably happened in HF. Also Shirou was aware of his reality marble in HF, because he clearly pointed out how the blades in his body come from that.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Rin knows who Archer is and she thinks she knows how Shirou's projection works (well, she misunderstood, she thought he needed the Azoth Sword to create Zelretch). She only needed to look at the things Shirou projected in his shed to see he is a freak (because of his Reality Marble).

Originally Posted by GreyZone

In the epilogue Rin mentioned about "keeping the reality marble a secret", so it seems he is still aware of Unlimited Blade Works (which may be because his version is different, e.g. no gears in the background), but he cannot use it without the necessary mana supply... well but since they will live together in a single room, that does not seem to be a problem, when necessary... as for his fighting abilities... I guess they were probably considerably lower, but not completely gone, he mostly used them against Archer so he probably forgot those moments, but it is possible that he still remembers using those techniques against Kuzuki and Gilgamesh, so maybe he still remembers a part of it.

And he still has his natural talent for archery, but that is of course not unique to the UBW route.

EDIT: The reality marble is something that is constantly present, so if you do certain examinations, it is probably possible to confirm the existence of the reality marble inside a person, which probably happened in HF. Also Shirou was aware of his reality marble in HF, because he clearly pointed out how the blades in his body come from that.

That makes sense. It seems I was confusing the definition of a reality marble with its manifested UBW form.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Not my fault if you think I in general insulted your logic. Chill.

Don't worry, I was just joking.

I always knew I thought...differently(haha! See, that's a better word)...but thinking differently is also known as(in most case)thinking out of the box so it's not exactly an insult. Also, I've revised the thought and just realised how much more sense it made to do UBW. And, there's probably going to be next to nothing about Sakura in the new anime as thats what the HF movie(s) will be for.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Don't worry, I was just joking.

I always knew I thought...differently(haha! See, that's a better word)...but thinking differently is also known as(in most case)thinking out of the box so it's not exactly an insult. Also, I've revised the thought and just realised how much more sense it made to do UBW. And, there's probably going to be next to nothing about Sakura in the new anime as thats what the HF movie(s) will be for.

Unless the 2nd PV was intentionally a mix of both the UBW anime and the HF movie(s), then it would support my theory that UBW and HF were at first supposed to be meshed together into 1 anime, but was later on split.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Unless the 2nd PV was intentionally a mix of both the UBW anime and the HF movie(s), then it would support my theory that UBW and HF were at first supposed to be meshed together into 1 anime, but was later on split.

Most likely but they thought it would be best to keep them as different routes. Rather than Shirou ending up with a Sister harem...

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

I don't remember who said that. I assume Shirou, but that was not the point about this discussion. I only wanted to highlight that having seen Fate/Zero spoils the reveal in HF to the viewer about Ilya being Shirou's stepsister.

From what I remember In the epilogue of UBW Shirou was starting to forget Archer's existence. I think it was said or I assumed he was also forgetting the fighting knowledge he gained from Archer, but I could be wrong.


I have forgotten what Rin's reasoning was in HF to conclude that Shirou would be able to use his reality marble, I don't remember him having used it in HF. Did she know Archer could use a reality marble in HF and assumed Shirou could also use it because of it? even without the help of Archer's arm? This makes me think of another question, did Shirou keep the skills and knowledge he received from the arm after losing it?

Shirou learning how to use a reality marble post HF always screamed of bullshit and a random Rin observation. For one he's not in his own body and his reality marble UBW is distinctly linked to his body through his sword origin hence why he manifest swords when he's greatly damaged. The second reason is that in HF he can't use UBW in any sense what so ever because UBW is manifestation of the ideal he completely abandone (hell it even tries to kill him through Archer's arm when which Shirou symbolises as judgement for turning his back on it), during Arc wing he also mentions he can't use it in spite of being in his normal body and having archer's arm, because of the significant differences in ideal.

The third reason is that producing a new reality marble based on his current ideal would take a long time, as he would be starting from scratch for the most part (differnet ideal different body), the whole stamen screamed of bullshit in comparison to everything else that had occurred prior.

[GDB]

Origins aren't tied to one's body. There's even the implied possibility that Shirou's origin changed after the Fuyuki inferno.

And UBW doesn't try to kill him because of any "judgment". It ends up overwhelming him because Archer is so immensely more powerful. If mana were like water, Archer's arm was basically drowning him.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by GDB

Origins aren't tied to one's body. There's even the implied possibility that Shirou's origin changed after the Fuyuki inferno.

And UBW doesn't try to kill him because of any "judgment". It ends up overwhelming him because Archer is so immensely more powerful. If mana were like water, Archer's arm was basically drowning him.

Shirou's origins was changed to sword because Avalon was put inside him for a long period of time. I'm pretty sure Nasu stated this. It's not his natural Origin so in that context it was tied to his body as his normal origin is not a sword.

Originally Posted by GDB

Origins aren't tied to one's body. There's even the implied possibility that Shirou's origin changed after the Fuyuki inferno.

And UBW doesn't try to kill him because of any "judgment". It ends up overwhelming him because Archer is so immensely more powerful. If mana were like water, Archer's arm was basically drowning him.

That's how UBW described it as happening because UBW was rejecting him, it has symbolic meaning everything about shirou is symbolic. UBW it's is a symbol of his ideal and in many ways it's quite literal.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Shirou's origins was changed to sword because Avalon was put inside him for a long period of time. I'm pretty sure Nasu stated this. It's not his natural Origin so in that context it was tied to his body as his normal origin is not a sword.

Darn, I got ninja'd.

[GDB]

But there's nothing stating his origin changed back, yet there's dialogue that says he'd still be able to use UBW (or, at the very least, his tracing which is intrinsically tied to UBW). Taking that into consideration, it's really no different from the Fate route where he gave back Avalon. His origin remained unchanged despite the new body.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by GDB

But there's nothing stating his origin changed back, yet there's dialogue that says he'd still be able to use UBW (or, at the very least, his tracing which is intrinsically tied to UBW). Taking that into consideration, it's really no different from the Fate route where he gave back Avalon. His origin remained unchanged despite the new body.

Yes, it's no difference because Avalon was destroyed, therefore he doesn't have it anymore.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by GDB

But there's nothing stating his origin changed back, yet there's dialogue that says he'd still be able to use UBW. Taking that into consideration, it's really no different from the Fate route where he gave back Avalon. His origin remained unchanged despite the new body.

UBW is his ideal, it represents it in all aspects. Quite literally his ability is to put shape to his mind is his quest make his ideal a reality, imperfect and temporary. The infinite battlefield represents his life it is his only thing he ever achieved through chasing that ideal. The world rejects UBW like it rejects his ideal as something unnatural. His body is made out of steel because he has hardened himself to the sole purpose of achieving it.

UBW isn't simply an ability it's his very mind and it's very specific. You can't simply change the whole thing entirely and what it means, without starting from scratch. It's why he can't use UBW because his ideals and Archer's ideals are different. it's something that normally takes decades to attain.

His new body doesn't even have enough prana circuits to sustain UBW that's how incompatible it is.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Amarantine

Basically, when Kotomine orders Lancer to kill Rin, Lancer instantly frees her instead (maybe even approaches her as if he was going to cut through her, but then cuts her bonds instead). Meaning Kirei doesn't sit around and wait, Lancer just takes him by surprise by ignoring his command and siding with Rin instead. Then, realizing his Servant has betrayed him, Kotomine tells him to kill himself.

I'm not sure how he could do that and it not be obvious to Kotomine what she is doing, given that her hands are tied behind the chair.

It works just as well as the original scenario and would give Rin that extra father-avenging moment that would make her seem less secondary in her own route (which was always been one of the biggest criticisms thrown at her character, that she's not even the focus in her own route).

Honestly, I think Rin has enough importance in the other routes that she doesn't need to be the focus of her own route. Although, actually including more stuff about Sakura and Rin's relationship to her would make her route cover a larger part of her character.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Now that I think about it... I got the feeling that they tried to do UBW & HF in 1 anime, but later on decided against it. That would explain why they started with production so early, but even though they had most episodes ready, had to take so much time in order to split it up in the end.

It's possible. They were certainly acting like it was going to be only one anime until the most recent announcement, and the previous secrecy seems odd given that they announced the route now. Everyone was assuming they wouldn't say anything specific about the route choice. It may be that they originally didn't intend to, but that doing a movie as well made it impossible to really do that.

Originally Posted by mirakura

It's not a reveal, to us than it is to Shirou. I already kinda figured out they were steps before reading HF, Shirou's an idiot and the only one who wouldn't have known that from all the clues given.

Isn't it mentioned in Fate somewhere? Also, I kind-of assumed it because of the whole "Onii-chan" thing (even though that is actually less of a hint than it appears to be initially).

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Of course further in the future it gets evened out between UBW and HF, as it was stated that Shirou would be able to use his reality marble in HF as well in the future. It is never stated how it is in Fate though... depending on how he decides to live, he may or may not develop his skills there as well.

It's stated in the HF True epilogue that Shirou would be capable of using his RM if he trained to do so. The only issue he might have is that his magic circuits aren't so good in the puppet body.

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

I have forgotten what Rin's reasoning was in HF to conclude that Shirou would be able to use his reality marble, I don't remember him having used it in HF. Did she know Archer could use a reality marble in HF and assumed Shirou could also use it because of it? even without the help of Archer's arm?

There's no reason HF Shirou wouldn't be able to use it in principle. Despite what some people think, the existence of UBW is not dependent on Shirou's ideal (although the specific form of it and the chant he uses to summon it does depend on his mentality, so I would expect HF Shirou's version to look more like UBW Shirou's than Archer's).

This makes me think of another question, did Shirou keep the skills and knowledge he received from the arm after losing it?

In some cases he probably does, yes. I would expect him to probably have the weapons from Archer's UBW stored in his own UBW, for example.

Originally Posted by mirakura

And, there's probably going to be next to nothing about Sakura in the new anime as thats what the HF movie(s) will be for.

That doesn't necessarily follow. The existence of the HF movie means that they're not going to do a HF-like subplot, certainly, but Sakura is still Rin's sister, and I don't think they're likely to treat that as much of a spoiler given Zero. So, it would make sense for them to cover her relationship with Rin somewhat, and possibly to attempt to find some resolution to that.

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Shirou's origins was changed to sword because Avalon was put inside him for a long period of time. I'm pretty sure Nasu stated this. It's not his natural Origin so in that context it was tied to his body as his normal origin is not a sword.

No, because a person's origin is part of their soul, not their body. Shirou's soul is still in the doll, so it will have the same origin.

That's how UBW described it as happening because UBW was rejecting him, it has symbolic meaning everything about shirou is symbolic. UBW it's is a symbol of his ideal and in many ways it's quite literal.

Erm, no, not at all. Archer has rejected that ideal as well, he can still use UBW.

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I'm not sure how he could do that and it not be obvious to Kotomine what she is doing, given that her hands are tied behind the chair.

By being a superhumanly fast heroic spirit with A level agility? It should take him less than a second to do it. Even if Kotomine wanted to, I doubt he would be able to order him to kill himself that quickly.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Honestly, I think Rin has enough importance in the other routes that she doesn't need to be the focus of her own route. Although, actually including more stuff about Sakura and Rin's relationship to her would make her route cover a larger part of her character.

But the VN already made the decision to leave that facet of her character (being Sakura's sister) to Heaven's Feel, so I doubt the anime will change that (since they'll be animating HF afterwards after all).

Then again, there's the fact that in this upcoming anime most viewers will already be acquainted with them being sisters and Sakura's situation from watching the Fate/Zero anime, so I imagine they might include a nod to it or something. Something like Rin making it clear that she still needs and plans to deal with the situation with Sakura one day, which might make for nice foreshadowing to the HF movie(s). Of course, HF is a different version of the story, so that doesn't mean UBW Sakura will be saved as well, but knowing that Rin plans to try would be a nice start.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

UBW is his ideal, it represents it in all aspects. Quite literally his ability is to put shape to his mind is his quest make his ideal a reality, imperfect and temporary. The infinite battlefield represents his life it is his only thing he ever achieved through chasing that ideal. The world rejects UBW like it rejects his ideal as something unnatural. His body is made out of steel because he has hardened himself to the sole purpose of achieving it.

UBW isn't simply an ability it's his very mind and it's very specific. You can't simply change the whole thing entirely and what it means, without starting from scratch. It's why he can't use UBW because his ideals and Archer's ideals are different. it's something that normally takes decades to attain.

His new body doesn't even have enough prana circuits to sustain UBW that's how incompatible it is.

That UBW is "rejecting" him in HF is comepletely baseless and you have nothing to support that.

Also in the HF-True epilogue it was stated his body is slowly turning back into what his body was originally, because his soul is changing it, which means it will also be able to bear the reality marble sooner or later.

Also he still has his "hero" mentality. He just focused on specific targets to protect, instead of "everyone".

[Lorhand]

Origin is literally that "thing" that exits Akasha, then particles with the same alignment and impulse are drawn to this and form your soul and body. For more information, I recommend reading Kara no Kyoukai.

An Origin switch therefore is actually absolutely ridiculous as it completely changes one's existence. FSN's first scene (excluding the Prologue) is called "Rebirth". You can say Shirou was literally reborn in that fire after the 4th War.

[Reckoner]

I'm not sure how baseless that is because I was under the same impression. I thought UBW destroying Shirou's body in HF had a very symbolic meaning. It's been awhile since I read it, but I was led to believe that his reality marble literally came apart when he went against his ideal. Well that and his body's prana not being compatible with his future self's arm.

At the very least, I think interpreting the story in that way makes it more interesting IMO.

[Lorhand]

It was Archer's Reality Marble that invaded Shirou after he used Archer's arm. That is really all.

…The thing invading my body from Archer's arm.
It gets harder to suppress his Reality Marble the more I use his Blade Works. Eventually, an infinite number of blades will be created inside my body instead of outside.
…I don't even want to imagine what'll happen.
A thousand blades will pierce my body from within, killing me instantly.