(L+CR) Shirobako (Mizushima Tsutomu and PA Works)

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

It would be wasting if she didn't succeed, but she did. And for job, you either get it or not. There is not much between. I would understand if she get suddenly main role, but she got minor instead. Only way it would be less "clean" is if she didn't get any in first place and that's not something one would call "resolved".

Again, I don't have a problem with pointing that it's a minor role. Even if she did get a role this episode I'm not really against either. Getting it because Director gets fat powers and the author suddenly connects in the silliest fashion? It cheapens it quite a bit, I'd say.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In complete honesty, the "fat powers" siege on the building was stretching it a bit for me. If it had gone on any longer, I would have felt it was making the show a bit too camp and cheesy. However, two points:

1. I think scenes like these are sort of supposed to be visual representations of what's going on at a deeper emotional level, rather than an accurate reflection of the physical reality. In reality, the Director probably just stormed by those guys, making it feel like they were just getting mowed over by the Director's girth and struck down by golf balls. (Note, I myself am a big man with considerable girth, so I certainly mean no disrespect to fat people here, nor was I offended by the scene itself).

2. Shirobako is quasi-realistic, but it does have its fantastical flourishes. Those two dolls of Aoi for example. Also, what we see on-screen during the Director's greater moments of personal inspiration. The show is quasi-realistic, but is willing to get a bit flashy with symbolic imagery/content for certain key scenes. The Director's big scene in this episode struck me as being in much the same vein. So I think it's pretty consistent with the show's overall sense of identity. It did stretch it a bit, but hey, it is the show's penultimate episode. Things normally get a bit more flashy at this point anyway.

Not bad points; but I think you could rationalize the stuff about the dolls. They're either serving as some kind of narrator, or some kind of bizarre delusion that comes from eating Aoi's donuts. I mean they never affected the plot directly-- like if the dolls suddenly materialized in real life and helped Aoi do their work, that'd be pretty silly.

The fat jokes in a vaccum don't mean too much, but they did show up a ton and that got kinda silly. It's the combination of him getting up there and meeting up with Takahiro Sakurai, err I mean God and the somewhat absurd way they connected that just made the whole thing utterly ridiculous. Thus far they haven't done anything like that-- I mean strongarming funny story guy was the limit and at least that fits into the story.

I disagree. And here's why.

Shizuka's success here is 50% hardwork/talent, and 50% lucky break. And you know what? I honestly think that's very reflective of real life.

Shizuka did in fact have to impress the Director to get her break here. If she hadn't done that, she wouldn't have got this brand new role. However, she had to get a bit lucky for the brand new role to be created as it was.

To make it in a competitive entertainment industry, you probably need a mix of actual talent and lucky break (and/or good connections).

If Shizuka didn't display some actual talent, I'd be critical of this as well. However, Shizuka does have some talent, in my view. I think she did a good job in this particular role.

Perhaps, it didn't seem fair to point her out as some potato chip eating slob all the time, lol. But would it truly diminish the value of the story if she didn't get it. I mean, she hasn't really had much screentime really.

Shirobako is merely following in the footsteps of the highly regarded Clannad here. What you call "emotionally manipulative", others find to convey powerful emotional truths. Aoi's reaction is fitting given the circumstances.

Right, sometimes I don't mind some of Clannad's cheese myself, however that kind of boomerang storytelling can get tiring.

...Yeah, this part makes it clear to me that you're pulling a Stephen Colbert here.

Nicely done, but this sort of thing is trickier in text format. Might want to add <sarc></sarc> tags next time (though I'll admit that can take some of the fun away, lol)

Stephen Colbert is a great man. Protecting people from lies like facts and logic. I like him believe in the heart. And with this heart, I feel like I can tell you Shirobako is pandering, and I don't have to explain myself. It should be obvious if you look into it.

Oh wait, I thought all my posts come with it pre-installed. Sorry guys, i've been getting into poker again, so I need to practice on deception. Clearly it needs some work against people who have past history with me.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

You're talking about extremes, but moe can be subtle too. Iroha characters are most definitely moe. They're just not moeblobs.

Well, let's just settle that yours "moe" is just "cute" in my book. I do think your definition is unnecessarily broad into point it loosing any meaning, but whatever, I guess it's alright that way.

Btw: I do make distinction between moe and moeblob.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Again, I don't have a problem with pointing that it's a minor role. Even if she did get a role this episode I'm not really against either. Getting it because Director gets fat powers and the author suddenly connects in the silliest fashion? It cheapens it quite a bit, I'd say.

Oh I get it, you don't like she got role because of random joke without any meaning was used. As for author, it wasn't really silly. They meet, talked thing through and reached compromise. You can threat whole think like simile where editors represent only barrier between two people who want create good piece together.

Where is will, there is way. Both mangaka and direction had will, so their meeting went smoothly.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Oh I get it, you don't like she got role because of random joke without any meaning was used. As for author, it wasn't really silly. They meet, talked thing through and reached compromise. You can threat whole think like simile where editors represent only barrier between two people who want create good piece together.

Where is will, there is way. Both mangaka and direction had will, so their meeting went smoothly.

Case in point yes, when something hurts your suspension of disbelief, it can partially damage everything that comes afterwards.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I do think your definition is unnecessarily broad into point it loosing any meaning, but whatever, I guess it's alright that way.

It's not really my definition. You see it used even in Shirobako. It's the definition of the industry. I guess it seems broad because is the dominant trend in the industry these days. Pretty much 90% for late night anime is moe stuff.

Perhaps you're confusing moe with moeblob. It's the not the same thing. Moeblob is just an extreme example of a moe character.

[Tenzen12]

1. You are saying it's definition of industry. Time to show on what basis you claim it. If you can't prove it. It's your subjective opinion I disagree with.
2. Yeah, it's true that 90% of anime feature girls that aren't ugly.
3. There are cute girls, moe girls and moeblob. Three categories. It's obvious you have just two.

[ices]

I really dislike @Archon_Wing first comment about Zuka that leads to this long discussion (Just your comment you know, not you Archon, please pardon me). That's because I've got in similar situation like Zuka just two weeks ago. And I feel kinda offended by that comment a bit (in a good way, so here I'll try to defend Zuka).

Let's start with a question.
If it's Zuka from the start of this season, not the current Zuka, do you think she gonna land that Lucy's role?

The answer is No. Absolutely no. It's though to get this job. We don't need a newbie Seiyuu who butchecred her lines in audition. (And I think that's the same with me from one year ago)

So what she does till now that deserve her luck to that job?

Eating chips while lamenting about live? Yes, I've done that too. But it's not just that. If someone said to me that I don't deserve my luck because I just seemed always eating chips while lamenting about live, I'll pull their hair and gives them a good slap for the great good. I just realized this thing this past week. When I do the jobs, I realize that I'm a different person than me a year ago. I'm no longer that incompetent and a newcomer person (well, but I'm sure that I still got a ton to learn). And I'm sure that happens to Zuka too. She's no longer a person who always getting nervous in an audition. She's a different person now.

Well, what made her becomes a different now?

She keep practicing. Not giving up. And... keep practicing. Yes, it's cliche, but that's what works. While I lamenting about live, I also keep practicing my skill. I'm not giving up. If you aren't on a sufficient level. Just keep practicing and learn from those who better than you. Also don't give up. (Though, I think it won't apply to all kind of skill/job). It's that freaking simple. Hence, I'm sure that Zuka got to this level because She kept practicing. Well, that's actually the case for me.

Spoiler for Another rant! About suggestion that Zuka must doing VA for H-stuff:

On another note, someone said last week that Zuka must try doing voice acting for H-stuff. What the hell!!!1 If I'm Zuka's mother, I'll keep telling her to not lose herself in that kind of jobs. Whatever the reason. She still has her waitress job. She doesn't need another job, you know!

I'm not saying that the sugestion is wrong. It's just that some peoples has different value. And if that person keep insisting that sugestion. I will shout to him to leave us. Just said that stuff to your own sister or daughter. Not to us...!

But, in the end, it's just the Luck that matters

Yes and No. I got my luck. Zuka got her luck. And sometimes it's just anticlimatic. We got those luck not by a though competition and sheding some tears. What a funny story... we got that just because someone remember us. Just because a simple thing we have done. Just because Zuka was told to read Catherine lines in her audition. Just because her voice sounded younger. It's just as simple as that.

Well, afterall. As the wise said "Luck favours those who come prepared"

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

1. You are saying it's definition of industry. Time to show on what basis you claim it. If you can't prove it. It's your subjective opinion I disagree with.

Didn't you watch Shirobako? They call both Exodus and Aerial Girls moe anime. Do you see that much difference between that and the Shirobako girls themselves or the Iroha girls? The Aerial girls in particular don't seem especially bubbly to me but they're still treated as moe characters by the Musani staff. Mind you, they're not as moe as the Exodus girls, but they're still moe characters. In fact the character design of Aria herself involves a discussion of how moe her design show be. But that's what I'm talking about: moe can be pretty subtle too, and just a little variation in character design can make a pretty big difference. It's also pretty obvious that personality isn't as important as character design when it comes to the moe factor.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Didn't you watch Shirobako? They call both Exodus and Arial Girls moe anime.

Didn't someone in the staff make fun of the term pointing out it had lost any meaning?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by totoum

Didn't someone in the staff make fun of the term pointing out it had lost any meaning?

And perhaps it's true. But the point is that such definitions are still used even if they are so broad that it feels like they're pretty meaningless.

[Tenzen12]

Despite fact that use of term was attacked right after it was said in this very show, you still insist it's "official" ?

As for Exodus, it clearly is moe show. In other hands in case of AG, we didn't saw more than few tidbits far from enough to compare to others shows.

[GDiddy]

Awesome episode:

Director and the writer of Aerial Girls actually wind up being bros while 'FUNNY STORY!-san gets his ass canned. HAHA.

YAY FOR SHIZUKA!!! SHE GOT A SMALL ROLE!!

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Despite fact that use of term was attacked right after it was said in this very show, you still insist it's "official" ?

Yeah because despite that comment, most the staff take those definitions pretty seriously.

[Tenzen12]

Yes they do, problem is each of them has their own. You should come with something more tangible (and quote it) if you want be taken seriously.

[Dickdatduck More]

Would someone be so kind as to define "moe" and "moeblob" for me?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Yes they do, problem is each of them has their own.

I only remember that one comment of disagreement. Everyone else seemed to be on the same page.

if you want be taken seriously.

You don't have to. Stick to your guns if you want. As far as I'm concerned, I proved my point and that's enough for me.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Dickdatduck More

Would someone be so kind as to define "moe" and "moeblob" for me?

As the show suggested, it's sort of a silly distinction at this point.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Again, I don't have a problem with pointing that it's a minor role. Even if she did get a role this episode I'm not really against either. Getting it because Director gets fat powers and the author suddenly connects in the silliest fashion? It cheapens it quite a bit, I'd say.

It was a bit rushed. Hard to deny that.

But rushing it a bit makes the final moments a bit more effective, I think.

Things happen very quickly, so you don't have as much of a chance to "guess the ending". Let's say the "fat powers"/creator heart-to-heart scene, and the Zuka scenes, happened in separate episodes. With a week's time between the two, more people probably would have guessed "So they're creating a brand new role for the final episode. ...I wonder who will be the seiyu for it? ... Oh wait!"

Having watched Madoka Magica live, I know how sharp anime fans can be at speculations.

So by going so quickly here, Shirobako manages to make Zuka's sudden appearance more of a pleasant and impacting surprise. Things happen so quickly that before you can add 2 and 2 together and see 4 arising on the horizon... she's already arrived! It's more entertaining and impacting this way. It's worth the "bit rushed" tradeoff I think.

The fat jokes in a vaccum don't mean too much, but they did show up a ton and that got kinda silly. It's the combination of him getting up there and meeting up with Takahiro Sakurai, err I mean God and the somewhat absurd way they connected that just made the whole thing utterly ridiculous.

I don't know. Aoi frequently makes pretty quick connections with other people in the anime industry. Maybe the entertainment industry really is that synergistic sometimes? Two good creators get together, and having similar interests and passions, they manage to connect on a deeper level pretty quickly.

I can buy it. Granted, it might have been better with a bit more dialogue, but it's passable for me at least.

Perhaps, it didn't seem fair to point her out as some potato chip eating slob all the time, lol. But would it truly diminish the value of the story if she didn't get it. I mean, she hasn't really had much screentime really.

Aoi and her four high school buddies were front and center in the early going, and three of the four ended up being pretty important throughout the whole show. So it would seem a bit strange, and possibly even a notable writing flaw, for the remaining Aoi friend (Zuka) to get forgotten about. Not a major flaw, but it is something I would bring up as a mark against the show in a lengthy series review.

So I think it's good Shirobako never forgot about Zuka, and gave her story a bit more positive development and resolution as well.

Right, sometimes I don't mind some of Clannad's cheese myself, however that kind of boomerang storytelling can get tiring.

That's what the more lowkey episodes are for. Without them, this would be Shirobako R2: Aoi of the Rebellion.

Thankfully, Shirobako's lowkey episodes nicely compliment the more hectic ones. Episode 22 compliments Episode 23.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Dickdatduck More

Would someone be so kind as to define "moe" and "moeblob" for me?

There really isn't a useful definition for either, to be honest.

"Moe character design" is by and large just referring to modern design sensibilities; some people get very upset that anime doesn't look exactly the way it did in 1996.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If PAW asked me to come up with a short four-word tagline to promote this show, I'd be tempted to go with "moe style, noitaminA substance".

Thank god they didn't hire you!

More seriously, all you've really said in that effortpost is that... adult characters and younger characters are drawn differently? Yes, we know, thank you.

Again, you're largely just pointing out modern design trends; you can easily see this as far back as Haruhi (and of course much earlier) which is long before people started complaining incessantly about moe.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

More seriously, all you've really said in that effortpost is that... adult characters and younger characters are drawn differently? Yes, we know, thank you.

Again, you're largely just pointing out modern design trends; you can easily see this as far back as Haruhi (and of course much earlier) which is long before people started complaining incessantly about moe.

Calm your panties. Triple_R did say it wasn't a criticism.

Also, while moe designs are pretty ubiquitous these days, there is some stuff that doesn't fit in that mold, so it's worth pointing out the differences.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by ices

But, in the end, it's just the Luck that matters

Yes and No. I got my luck. Zuka got her luck. And sometimes it's just anticlimatic. We got those luck not by a though competition and sheding some tears. What a funny story... we got that just because someone remember us. Just because a simple thing we have done. Just because Zuka was told to read Catherine lines in her audition. Just because her voice sounded younger. It's just as simple as that.

Well, afterall. As the wise said "Luck favours those who come prepared"

I suppose that's a fair assumption too. It could be said that whatever finite opportunities aka "luck" still requires an ability to maximize your own edges.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It was a bit rushed. Hard to deny that.

But rushing it a bit makes the final moments a bit more effective, I think.

Things happen very quickly, so you don't have as much of a chance to "guess the ending". Let's say the "fat powers"/creator heart-to-heart scene, and the Zuka scenes, happened in separate episodes. With a week's time between the two, more people probably would have guessed "So they're creating a brand new role for the final episode. ...I wonder who will be the seiyu for it? ... Oh wait!"

Having watched Madoka Magica live, I know how sharp anime fans can be at speculations.

So by going so quickly here, Shirobako manages to make Zuka's sudden appearance more of a pleasant and impacting surprise. Things happen so quickly that before you can add 2 and 2 together and see 4 arising on the horizon... she's already arrived! It's more entertaining and impacting this way. It's worth the "bit rushed" tradeoff I think.

Well, here's the thing.

You bring up Madoka Magica, like you often do, but consider that it had you guessing to the end, and the ending itself didn't come out of nowhere. Or consider PA Work's own gem in the sea, True Tears. Well, okay, I mean it got kinda dumb there but it really made you think that many possibilities were equal. Or Another; never mind, that's just stupid.

I don't know. Aoi frequently makes pretty quick connections with other people in the anime industry. Maybe the entertainment industry really is that synergistic sometimes? Two good creators get together, and having similar interests and passions, they manage to connect on a deeper level pretty quickly.

I can buy it. Granted, it might have been better with a bit more dialogue, but it's passable for me at least.

It just makes for a indiffrent and anticlimactic way to end the story. I mean sure, we're not going for some shit that ends in explosions of course, and I believe the director could have connected to the creator quickly. But to have them dance around like idiots, well... Not much of a "last boss"!

Aoi and her four high school buddies were front and center in the early going, and three of the four ended up being pretty important throughout the whole show. So it would seem a bit strange, and possibly even a notable writing flaw, for the remaining Aoi friend (Zuka) to get forgotten about. Not a major flaw, but it is something I would bring up as a mark against the show in a lengthy series review.

So I think it's good Shirobako never forgot about Zuka, and gave her story a bit more positive development and resolution as well.

I think the show really only went over Aoi and Ema in depth. I think it's intentional to some degree, as a lot of character characters played a lot of important roles, so it wasn't just a 5 girl crew show thing.

That's what the more lowkey episodes are for. Without them, this would be Shirobako R2: Aoi of the Rebellion.

I was just thinking Shirobako: Rebellion. I mean Shizuka does start with an S and end with an A. Just saying.

Thankfully, Shirobako's lowkey episodes nicely compliment the more hectic ones. Episode 22 compliments Episode 23.

And that, I think went over really well.

I think I'll review the episode for reals. This new avatar is kinda cheesy but I think it should be done for a bit.