Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Natsuki Hyuga

News flash, you just described exactly what Takky (and a lot of people have been telling you) is talking about: those stories are very well aimed for young girls. I don't think most adults will say that Mamoru and Usagi's relationship is uhh... I'll just cut it there, you should know what I'm implying. (Yes, I am one of those people who think Prince in a White Horse is outdated. Haraguro FTW. That said, I'm never opposed to enjoy reading them now and then.)

And to sound raile and everyone back: Macross is not some epic shoujo manga work or a fairy tale wannabe when it comes to the relationship development. So what if Sailor Moon's UsagixMamoru romance is PURE TRUE LOVE, and fairy tales often emulates those fuzzy happy ends for children? Simply said, don't try to compare Macross to some shoujo manga elements.

... I feel kind of stupid to even point this (WAY TOO MUCH POINTED OUT POINT) out to be honest. /SOB

What's funny about LMK trying to compare Ranka to Usagi is that her description of Usagi is off. Usagi was never shy in fact she's quite confident, and outspoken. She also didn't fall in love with Mamoru instantly it took a while, in both the anime and the manga. Mamoru also isn't her savior and Usagi stops considering him as such after she gets to know him (sans the point that he saves Usagi on his own), its also funny to note that Usagi saves essentially saves him more than he saves her, by protecting the Earth. There is also the fact that Usagi an effort with Mamoru, and the fact that she isn't prone to making bad decisions, and she is able to make decisions that don't hurt others, without the outside influence.

But yes to point out the obvious the Macross Franchise isn't a Shoujo series, I've said it once before, but I still wonder why the hell AruRan fans think that it is, and try to apply shoujo logic in this series.

[raile]

What is with this Sailor Moon-fest?
(Not that I don't like the series...but c'mon...I can't begin to start how they are way different).

Oh and on the related topic...

Alto/Sheryl is CANON!
Pure True Love in official status like Mamoru/Usagi and all the fairy tale and Disney couplings!

Oh and Ranka might have gotten Cinderella's name but NOT her ending.

/squees with Natsu



()

If you take away the 'a' in mah name, you get...?

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by raile

What is with this Sailor Moon-fest?
(Not that I don't like the series...but c'mon...I can't begin to start how they are way different).

Oh and on the related topic...

Alto/Sheryl is CANON!
Pure True Love in official status like Mamoru/Usagi and all the fairy tale and Disney couplings!

Oh and Ranka might have gotten Cinderella's name but NOT her ending.

/squees with Natsu



()

If you take away the 'a' in mah name, you get...?

Minmei was also called a Cinderella as well wasn't she? Didn't stop her from losing her love triangle did it?

[teelatsuki]

Originally Posted by raile

What is with this Sailor Moon-fest?
(Not that I don't like the series...but c'mon...I can't begin to start how they are way different).

Oh and on the related topic...

Alto/Sheryl is CANON!
Pure True Love in official status like Mamoru/Usagi and all the fairy tale and Disney couplings!

Oh and Ranka might have gotten Cinderella's name but NOT her ending.

/squees with Natsu



()

If you take away the 'a' in mah name, you get...?

Quoted for emphasis

For the cinderella thing I think this fits much much more this way please

Also I liked Sheryl a lot at star date, was rooting for her in the triangle at chapter 6 an decided ranka wasn't a character I liked at chapter 12 yes the same chapter she shined the most was the one I stopped rooting for her at all, tough it was for the end of that chapter.

As for ranka issues is not just the "I want to die" is the timing of that and SERIOUSLY!! wanting to die from that just no. that chapter just happened to be the icceng of the cake I already disliked her for several of her actions.

[creb]

So, I haven't followed all 71 pages of this thread, but since the movie came out like four months ago, didn't it put an end to the three-way from the TV series? I haven't searched for info myself, since I don't want to necessarily ruin it for when it's finally released on Blu-Ray (which I'm guessing won't be for another 6-7 months...aaaaargh), but some people must know the answer to who Alto ends up gravitating to, making the thread mostly pointless right? :/

I've always been a Sheryl fan, by simple virtue of her being an actual woman and not some 12 year old girl (ok, I'm sure Ruka is a little older than 12, but she LOOKS like she's 12, and that's just weird if you're an older teen/young adult), so I'm certainly hoping Alto doesn't end up a pseudo-pedophile with the girl half his height.

Now if only they decided not to wait a year after the theatrical release to release on Blu-Ray. The wait is killing me.

[raile]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Minmei was also called a Cinderella as well wasn't she? Didn't stop her from losing her love triangle did it?

Honestly, I can understand comparing characters to certain elements of famous fairy tales and other literary works (i.e. 'Young Sheryl was like the Little Match Girl in search for comfort and love', 'Luring the Vajra with music is kinda like the Pied Piper', etc.) but to expect it to go as it did in the fairy tale formula is....c'mon. I watch Disney a lot too but when Ranka got the Cinderella moniker, I didn't expect the story to conform with her singing title.

[MichiNekoChan]

BTW LMK: When people refer to a Cinderella or a Cinderella story, it is not always connected to romance.

Actual definition of 'Cinderella' from TheFreeDictionary.com - "One that unexpectedly achieves recognition or success after a period of obscurity and neglect."

THAT is why Ranka was called the Super-dimensional Cinderella. It's not because of romance, but because she came up from out of no where to achieve success and fame.

[Natsuki Hyuga]

Woot, raile actually hijacked my brain beforehand Q_Q

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Well, her affections over the episodes WERE brave for a normal shy girl with a crush. Most don't get to that point where they confess their feelings. But, I do say, Ep11 admitted that BOTH girls knew Alto liked to fly, as Sheryl had presented him with a true sky and Ranka had (even though Nanase gave her the recipe for the cookie) shaped her cookies like a plane. So, on some level, Ranka might've known a BIT about his love for the sky. Otherwise, perhaps she still savors that he saved her in Ep1-2. Either way, she wasn't as dumbfounded as most people make her sound.

PS: In Ep21, she says "why do you like to fly?" She doesn't ask "do you like to fly?" She knew before then. So she was aware of his dream before then. THAT wasn't a disappointment.

To be honest, this is why it's one of a disappointment for me. Because she only focus her thoughts on Alto, Alto and Alto most of the time. If, say, there is a bit of thought about Nanase (her BFF, for that matter) or even just consider Sheryl a bit in Sheryl's moment of distress then that is what I would call aware of her surroundings. In fact I can attribute that to selfishness, as we see little awareness from her (Let's not talk about the disaster of "Ranka asking Alto to go to the bug planet after said race killed Michael debate." That is incredibly... No.)

But she didn't in the series (the movie might be different, who knows! I'm not going to argue the movie until I see the 2nd one). Or at least the show did not put emphasis in that and more in her attraction to Alto.

And to make a sarcastic note: Ranka is REFERRED to as Cinderella. Well, Cinderella got prince charming. However, her music is actually the pumpkin that vanishes at midnight and Alto is the prince charming whom finds the slipper. But, of course, that is missed. And in ALL versions of the fairytale, Cinderella got prince charming.

It's not that I, myself, relate Macross F to it, it is in the SERIES, as stated by Catherine and the marketing merchandise. That is another reason I think people were really upset when Ranka lost too. She is referred to a fairytale that had a happy ending with the man she loves. THAT was a horrible way to go, Kawamori. Why not name her something else like Red Riding Hood?

Uhh, because Cinderella's story is more about how things just turn into 180 for the best for Cinderella and less about her romance? Just like how Ranka's *KIRA~!* sequence make her popularity in-series go booming from her nobody-knows-she-is-doing-ninjin-CM status?

Don't put everything into romance goggles, m'dear.

Not gonna derail further with Sailor Moon (the only classic shoujo manga I dislike, yes I read the manga, if you want to know; and no need to delve further into Sailor Moon analysis, Macross is not a shoujo manga ), but I suppose I really don't see the comparison between Usagi that I remember with Ranka. ~_~;; Then again, I just loathe Usagi a lot, while I can see some goodness in Ranka despite the disappointment through the series.

/pass the baton to anyone else if LMK reply to this---Gotta run through 7 more topics with cases and review all of the stuffs starting today!/

EDIT: SOB SOB SOB EVERYONE ESP MichiNeko NINJAED ME TOO ABOUT THE CINDERELLA. I AM SADDENED BY MY FINGER SLOWNESS IN 5 AM SOBBBBBBBB

[Irisiel]

Plus, Ranka never had the poverty and evil step-family part of the Cinderella tale, which is really the most important part, since it contrasts so much with Cinderella's early life (as a nobleman's daughter). The getting a prince was a morality reward for little girls who were passive, pure and patient, in contrast to the women who with their wile, evil ways actually had ambitions and took action to get what they wanted (of course, they did not get the prince, they got their eyes pecked out by a bunch of birds, and pieces of their feet were already cut off after trying to fit them into glass/fur/gold slippers).

In a way, Sheryl's life is a deconstruction of the Cinderella fairy tale, since she did end up in poverty after having been in a loving family, was picked up by an evil manager, and then it stops following the tale as she's thrown away again. Yet this time, our heroine is not passive, no, she's Sheryl Nome, she claws her way back up, and according the creators was probably rewarded with her princess and a loving home.

Ranka's tale remind me a bit more of Jack and the Beanstalk, to be quite honest (with the trading of the cow for an unknown set of beans, when his family is going through hard times, being the reflection of going to Vajra planet on a hunch). Both Ranka and Jack had the best intentions in mind, didn't really think, but it all worked out anyway.

Either way, Cinderella became a tale of romance when the morality tale went out of it, which was that pious young women are rewarded and ambitious women are punished, neither which really fits any Macross I've seen.

[wisteria233]

Attributing Ranka being called Cinderella with her love for (read: crush on) Alto is just stupid for several reasons.

1) Its what the other characters, who don't know her personally call her. They don't know her personal life so they don't know she has a crush on someone.

2) Cinderella is a story rags to royalty story. This is the context that it is used in. Calling someone a Cinderella is not always linked to a romantic context, it is frequently used to say that someone came from nothing and became something, or marrying into wealth.

3) No matter what the AruRan fans say Ranka and Alto are not in a relationship.

Though the story of Cinderella is basically like Irisiel said as many Cinderella stories good things come to her because she is a good person, but even then Ranka doesn't really match the traditional tale at all, as she's her life quite frankly was comfortable, and any problems she was faced with were from her doing. If anything Sheryl matches the tale better as she had something, lost something, and through hard work gained it again, as a type of reward. Effective to note that those problems were thrown at Sheryl rather than Sheryl creating them. Minus the ambitious women part, Sheryl matches the tale better.

[Tak]

I give you props for outdoing yourself every time in providing juvenile hilarity at its finest. Seriously, I would hug you so tight if you weren't actually being serious.

Have you considered reading what you are writing when you post what you post?

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

the manga version of Sailor Moon was much deeper and more tame than the anime series. In the manga, Usagi wasn't as much a klutz and she WAS shy when it came to ROMANCE.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Most people who talk about Usagi and Mamoru's romance in the series never bothered to read the manga. It was much better in the manga and the battles were much more serious. Usagi wasn't as "oh, I broke a nail" in the manga as she was in the series when the enemies chased her. In the beginning, yes, but by the halfway point, she was brave and understanding of her role as the savior of Earth and the Moon.

First of all, a shojo manga focuses significantly more on the female protagonist point of view, especially those so-called pure love crush crap. Its biased from the start. If you bother reading your own posts, a majority of them describe how Ranka is feeling, Ranka's point of view, Ranka this, Ranka that, while very little of your attention concerns Alto's perspective. Please note, the world does not revolve around Ranka.

Second, I have (very reluctantly) read Sailor Moon manga in its original form while you were either still in diapers or waiting to be spawned from a sperm, all because my sister thought it was the shit back in the day, and forced it upon me. Fortunately, she has since then distanced herself away from that rubbish. So, do me a favor, do not even bother trying to describe the manga, I understand it better than you. Moreover, I can assure you, there is neither a revelation to the meaning of life, nor any deep philosophical definition to a relationship. Like any shojo media out there, the portrayal of relationship in Sailor Moon is fucking unreal. It only gained prominence because it was one of the very few pieces of Japanese pop culture released to the general market in the US, since it was 80% kid-safe. So stop acting like you are special. You aren't.

Its nothing worth gagaing over, there are many like it.

- Tak

[raile]

(^You make the little girl in me who had once played around, waving a Sailor Moon staff cry (but I agree, thought it took me in my teens to realize it when I was rewatching, going "...I actually liked this..?" but I'm still rather fond of it, despite how stupid it was )
Honestly, a lot (not all, there are plenty good ones) of shoujo mangas portray a relationship that a girl should never aspire to have (i.e. Twilight). "Kyaaa11!!, it's so awesome that the guy is forcing a rapey-kiss on her and she's crying out in denial!!1! ")

Ranka was Cinderella, obscure in the entertainment world until the Bird Human movie.
Sheryl, being the 'fairy godmother', helped motivate her and once, she even offered to grant her 'wish' by getting her a spot on a TV show in episode 8 (which Alto/Ranka fans always conveniently forget). Her life took a complete change almost overnight, suddenly she was as hot as chicken in a fryer (I'm hungry...).

However, that's where the comparison ends. Romance-wise, she embodied Cinderella's attitude of 'wait-till-my-prince-gets-here-with-my-slipper-so-I-can-live-happily-ever-after-boo yah!-fried-chicken-tonight,-baby!'. But Alto never got it and didn't pursue her, simply because he just didn't like her any more than a friend (in other words, "He's just not that into you, Ranka"). In the end, he ended up falling in love with the fairy.

In any case, I always saw it as The Little Mermaid in Ranka's case. She gives her voice (for Ranka, her songs) for the sake of her prince, but the prince decides to marry someone else (yes the heroine didn't win, but it just goes to show that you can't love someone because you have an obligation to love them back, if your heart's not in it, then it isn't. Simple.) That's where the likeness stops though .

[cheesie]

The last two pages have been filled with tl;dr posts about... something. Take it to PM, or even better, block them.

This is now getting to the point of annoyance.

(P/S: Mamoru x Usagi is epic win.)

But yes, do stuff this and move on.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by MichiNekoChan

BTW LMK: When people refer to a Cinderella or a Cinderella story, it is not always connected to romance.

Actual definition of 'Cinderella' from TheFreeDictionary.com - "One that unexpectedly achieves recognition or success after a period of obscurity and neglect."

THAT is why Ranka was called the Super-dimensional Cinderella. It's not because of romance, but because she came up from out of no where to achieve success and fame.

Indeed. A Cinderella story is usually someone who comes from obscurity and raises to success, it has LITTLE to do with romance. There could be romantic elements, but it's not about romance: it's about fame and privilege! In the original tale, the Prince is a plot device for Cinderella to access to this position, not the ultimate goal. Minmay also had a song called Cinderella, btw, and is one of my favorites.

Originally Posted by Tak

First of all, a shojo manga focuses significantly more on the female protagonist point of view, especially those so-called pure love crush crap.

Not all shoujo focuses on female protagonist POV (Kaori Yuki certainly doesn't). Plus, the pure love crush is kind of looked down in good shoujo series. Let's take a look at Utena or Princess Tutu animes for example. Far, far superior magical girl shoujo series than Sailor Moon manga, IMO.

[MichiNekoChan]

Originally Posted by Thess

Not all shoujo focuses on female protagonist POV (Kaori Yuki certainly doesn't). Plus, the pure love crush is kind of looked down in good shoujo series. Let's take a look at Utena or Princess Tutu animes for example. Far, far superior magical girl shoujo series than Sailor Moon manga, IMO.

Spoiler for Slightly Off-topic.:

YES! <3 I just finished getting Princess Tutu on my computer so I can watch it whenever I want (instead of borrowing it. FakirxAhiru FOREVER)

Also +1 to Utena. Though I prefer the cracked out movie over the series.

Have we scared her off yet?

In any case I hope all the defining and counter arguments we all pitched in to do will finally do something.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by MichiNekoChan

Spoiler for Slightly Off-topic.:

YES! <3 I just finished getting Princess Tutu on my computer so I can watch it whenever I want (instead of borrowing it. FakirxAhiru FOREVER)

Also +1 to Utena. Though I prefer the cracked out movie over the series.

Have we scared her off yet?

In any case I hope all the defining and counter arguments we all pitched in to do will finally do something.

Spoiler for off topic. SPOILERS for PT I guess?:

Preach. FakirxAhiru and MythoxRue endings were perfect, IMO.

I liked that Ahiru remained her true self: a duck and that Fakir stayed with her no MATTER what. If she were turned into a girl, it would have been disgusting and going with the idea women must "change" into someone normal (Ahiru!Girl) or perfect (Princess Tutu), so it would be acceptable for her to be 'loved'. Ugh. Gross.

I always took the "duck" thing as an allegory/metaphor of a physical disability as fairytale goes.

Same for Rue and Mytho. I liked she kept her 'taint' (which wasn't something she chose either) and yet was loved regardless. No one is perfect, in spite of this, they are loved. I dig that message. It's healthy and crushing any harmful self-projection for little girls. They don't need to be Princesses or 'normal' to be with someone they love or reach for their dream (dancing in Ahiru's case).

I liked both the crack movie and the tv series.

I don't think we should be so hostile, personally. XD;

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Thess

Not all shoujo focuses on female protagonist POV (Kaori Yuki certainly doesn't). Plus, the pure love crush is kind of looked down in good shoujo series. Let's take a look at Utena or Princess Tutu animes for example. Far, far superior magical girl shoujo series than Sailor Moon manga, IMO.

I will admit, the only Shojo manga I ever liked was Angel Sanctuary. It was provocatively tasty.

And yes, for that genre, I like Kaori Yuki best.

- Tak

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

And it was incest.

So?

- Tak

[Irisiel]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Spoiler for for PT, I guess:

Well, personally, I thought Princess Tutu was based after the American fairytale Swan Princess, where the princess was changed into a swan and could only change back into a princess when the moonlight shined on the lake. Her prince (whom was missing her a lot) sought her out and nearly killed her, then he found out her secret and attempted to help her. Of course the princess' curse was eventually broken but the 2nd and third movies had those problems arise again. Originally, it was only supposed to END with the 1st movie.

Either way, the duck changing into a normal girl was the same aspect of the childhood favorite.

Princess Tutu was based on the Russian ballet Swan Lake composed by Pyotr Tchaikovsky (he also did the Nutcracker). Not an American fairytale, or even the American movie mostly done by Richard Rich and company named Swan Princess. It also has elements of the Danish fairytale the Ugly Duckling, as well as other ballets and fairytales. Sorry, but I'm a bit anal about things like this. (And to bend this back to the topic: Sheryl=Odette, Rothbart=Grace, Siegfried=Alto, Odile=Ranka, anyone?)

Plus, I look at it this way: if the girl looks like that and she's already grown, she ain't gonna grow anymore. You have to accept it. That's why series like Sailor Moon and Toradora, even Shugo Chara, have morals - to love the person as he/she is. In Ranka's case, she's already 16, she's not gonna become like Sheryl (in build) when she turns 18 or 21, she's gonna remain that way. And you just have to suck it up and look at her for personality. That's why when you say Alto would be a pedophile, I just puke, because it doesn't make a difference what you say, if he loved her, he'd be showing he accepted her as she was.

While I agree that using her physical build as an argument against the couple might be puke-worthy, one must also consider that she not only looks much more immature than her classmates, but she also behaves in a much more immature way. So you have a character that looks and acts about tween-early teen range, and because she's animated, you can't go by the physical age of the actress, and on the paper, she's supposedly sixteen-seventeen, but you see almost no evidence of this in the series, except when Ozma throws out that she's almost seventeen, and thus legally an adult.

And the correct term is ephebophilia (if one goes by Ranka being sixteen) or hebephilia (if one thinks Ranka is between eleven and fourteen), everyone! But in this case, Alto and Ranka might be covered by Romeo and Juliet laws (if Frontier has them), especially since Alto, by being of age (17) would only be a year older than Ranka (16). By the way, Tchaikovsky did a ballet based on Romeo and Juliet as well.

Still, the creators went waaaaay out of their way to portray Ranka as younger than she really is (just witness the promo art for the second movie in which Alto is in his pilot suit, Sheryl in her stylized army uniform and Ranka... is a magical girl!). I often think that if we'd seen Ranka work hard on getting back on Frontier's good side after the Vajra war, she'd have regained many of her fans. Basically, that her actions has consequences that she learn to deal with and work through.

Anyway, back onto the Romance of Macross topic that seem to be tangentially important to this thread (*hint*HINT*HINTdammit*), why don't we all pick our favourite scene with our favourite Macross couple?

You know, if you like Sheryl/Alto, you might be in love with the "was it sex?"-scene. Or if you like Ranka/Alto, it might be the Bird Human scene. Or if you like Sharon/crazy scientist whose name I forgot, you might like it when he falls into her holographic face while she's busy hypnotizing the world. Or maybe just when Hikaru salutes to Misa in his valkyrie. Or even when Klan slaps the crap out of Michael's valkyrie.

You know, just talking about something related to romance in Macross?

For me, the scene in Sheryl's dressing room in the penultimate episode induced both fan-squees and RAEG in me, which is why it's my favorite. It showed Sheryl's many facets (Sheryl Nome the stage-persona, Sheryl, the sick, abandoned orphan, Sheryl, the woman who loves Alto, Sheryl, the strong woman who wont let anything, even the possibility of her love being returned, between her and her duty to save Frontier, and finally, Sheryl, the friend of Ranka). And it showed Alto finally taking a clear incentive, and it showed that for once, he did not want to be silenced, he wanted to speak out, but this time, he did not out of respect of Sheryl's wishes.

Of course, the RAEG is that we never saw that discussion finished, but when I first saw it, and thought it would be finished, I was floating on cotton candy clouds.

[teelatsuki]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Plus, I look at it this way: if the girl looks like that and she's already grown, she ain't gonna grow anymore. You have to accept it. That's why series like Sailor Moon and Toradora, even Shugo Chara, have morals - to love the person as he/she is. In Ranka's case, she's already 16, she's not gonna become like Sheryl (in build) when she turns 18 or 21, she's gonna remain that way. And you just have to suck it up and look at her for personality. That's why when you say Alto would be a pedophile, I just puke, because it doesn't make a difference what you say, if he loved her, he'd be showing he accepted her as she was.

You know that people usually keeps growing up until they are around 19-21 years old, so Ranka has plenty of space to grow a little bit more. Even if most likely she will never get rid of her baby face, it will be enough for her to grow a little taller at the very least.

Also looking at her for her personality would be awful everyone hates her exactly for that!, well at first it was ok and they fixed her quite a bit in the movie but at the end of the series her personality was the problem.