2008-12-26, 12:27 | Link #1403 | ||
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Something like that, right? Individuality is how all things are accomplished. |
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2008-12-26, 13:19 | Link #1404 | |
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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An easy example are the Islamic terrorists of the present. Many of these people are extremely religious. Their religion arguably does not preach the violence and holy warfare that they engage in, but it doesn't matter - some religious leader said that it must be so, and thus the faithful must follow. They believe so strongly that they will be rewarded in the afterlife, or that what they are doing is God's will, that they will undergo suffering (and at the extreme, give up their life in suicide) in order to carry out their tasks. And so that the Muslims don't feel that I'm singling them out, let me remind you that massacres were committed by the Christians during the Church-directed Crusades of the medieval ages, although the level of religious manipulation that occurred there was rather different. Compare that with current temptations. Money? Fame? Wanting to imitate someone on TV? Any of these could possibly bring someone to kill or to commit suicide. However, I have a hard time believing that people could be manipulated as easily to go to such extremes by a sum of money when compared with the belief that they will experience eternal paradise. The problem that I have with religion has less to do with religion itself and more to do with the fact that people are sheep-like. So you're a Muslim, a Christian, a Jew, a Buddhist - do you know the teachings of your religion? Have you read it over yourself and thought about it, or do you just attend your service and hear a clergyman's spin on it? If your highest religious leader told you tomorrow that God said to do something, would you do it without hesitation? Many do not think about it, and many would obey. There lies the danger. Your grandmother is probably a wonderful person, but if she has unquestioning faith in the human leaders of her religion and truly believes them to be direct links to God (an all-knowing, benevolent entity) then perhaps she would take even the most ridiculous orders from them. If you truly believe that God said to kill anyone wearing red tomorrow because that meant that they were showing defiance against God then it is very easy to reason away the belief that murder is wrong. Any non-religious person could also reason away basic ethics and morals, of course. I am not attempting to say that only the religious could have common sense taken over by their faith. The issue is that religion attempts to define your morals and ethics, and that regular humans channel control through religion. Combined with people's lack of will or desire to interpret religion for themselves, that makes for a dangerous situation, one where a person does not need to be mentally ill in order to believe that committing atrocities is justified.
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2008-12-26, 13:54 | Link #1405 |
Aspiring Aspirer
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Athiest.
I dislike religion because of one and one thign only: Making other people believe in what you believe in. I know alot of genuinely good religious people, I have no problem with them, but I dislike them parading themselves all high and mighty and worst of all telling me I'm going to burn in hell/ punished in a spiral of fire or other ghastly things which I don't care about but somehow need to reminded of everyday. It gets annoying. And I don't like the concept of absolute faith = salvation. I don't want to know a high deity that values unquestionable loyalty ore so than logical inquiry. That doesn't seem like an extremely aimable person to me. But really, as long as you keep it to yourself and not doing anything ghastly in the name of whatever, I'm fine with religion. And hey, religion gives alot of things; most holidays are religiously derived and lots of music.
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2008-12-26, 17:34 | Link #1406 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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A quick peek at the CIA world factbook shows that France has between 83 and 88% of Catholics. (And 2% Prothestants). Germany has 34% Catholics and 34% Prothestants. UK has 71.6% Christians. Too lazy to look up other countries. The USA have 78.5% Christians. |
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2008-12-26, 17:39 | Link #1407 | |
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Those percents are by country, right? |
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2008-12-26, 20:04 | Link #1409 |
Juanita/Kiteless
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New England
Age: 40
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Of course, a thread like this becomes a huge thread debating on religion and atheism.
A few things I want to say: First, religion and spirituality I find are great. I'm a spiritual person. A lot of people who are religious are good people. Don't let the bad apples ruin your opinion for all religious and spiritual people. And yes, religious leaders in power can manipulate people. Guess what? Any kind of person in power can manipulate people. Muslims, Christians, atheists, whites, blacks, Asians, you name it. What is going on in the Middle East with militant Muslims is not just about religion; it incorporates socio-political matters, cultural matters, and just straight up corruption and twisted desires from the people in power. Second, some one on this page said they don't like how some religious people try to make you believe as they do. First, of course not all religious and spiritual people try jamming their convictions down your throat (especially many of the Eastern religions). Secondly, a lot of atheists (but of course not all) are really the same in this regard. Just as we have Bible-thumping bigots in the U.S., we have a number of atheists who are trying to persuade people to their thinking, but instead of their mantras being "Believe" or "Jesus saves" it is things like "Religion is holding us back" or let's say *ahem* "Religion is society's greatest hurdle. My point being, we have people attached to their beliefs and convictions, whether you look at religious folk or atheists. And then you see them butt heads together. I've learned a lot from Buddhism, a religion I read up on and contemplate. One thing I've come to learn is that most any problem created from people is centered on attachment and desire (as I mentioned). So just as you have Christians in America that get into people's hair, you have plenty of atheists that are being driven by their desires and attachments and are just as guilty of trying to spread and push their own type of thinking and beliefs and a specific agenda. Truth be told, there are many religious folk that fail to be a good follower of their religion, and there are plenty of atheists that are antagonistic jerks and unfairly biased towards religion and spirituality. And of course, there are many good people who are spiritual and/or religious and there are plenty of good atheists. Another thing to put on the table: Yes, leaders who are in power who are religious often times mess up and are corrupt, and sometimes it involves their religion. Do you think atheist leaders with prominently atheist societies wouldn't mess up, wouldn't be immoral, and wouldn't be corrupt? Look at how Communist countries turned out. They threw religion out the door and repressed religious practice in their countries. As we all know, Communism worked out great! And most people in those societies were yearning to be able to freely practice religion. Like I said, good people come in many types, including believers and those who are atheists. And anybody can fall to corruption, whether they be religious or atheists. So, as to the question of the thread, I answered earlier in the post. I'm spiritual, but I don't abide exclusively to any one religion. Spiritual but not religious, as they say. Someone tried to make it sound like most religious and spiritual people don't think for themselves and only atheists people do. I think for myself, thank you very much. I think for myself, and I'm very spiritual and I have strong faith and conviction in the divine, God, and the after life. I was raised Christian and I still appreciate much about the religion today, although I'm not technically a Christian. Some of my beliefs definitely fall in line with that religion, though. I read up on Eastern religions. Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Jainism, and Shintoism; I have interest in all of them. However, the two Eastern religions which I really incorporate into my thinking the most and apply to my spirituality are Buddhism and Taoism. I benefit from studying and contemplating both of them. There are some metaphysical concepts found in Hinduism I find quite appealing, too. I read up on certain religions often and contemplate and reflect on the nature of reality just about every single day. Science is great to me, but it doesn't have all the answers and doesn't give the whole picture. It is shedding light on many things, but to me, Science is trying to investigate the nature of reality as spirituality is also trying to shed light on the nature of some aspects of reality.
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2008-12-26, 20:26 | Link #1410 | |
Gregory House
IT Support
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2008-12-26, 20:35 | Link #1411 |
Juanita/Kiteless
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New England
Age: 40
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I say, all the great religions of the world don't start out like that or with such ambitions. It is just that people (men, in all truth) steer things in that direction...because people can often times be schmucks.
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2008-12-26, 21:27 | Link #1412 |
Gregory House
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No, I believe that's a misconception right there, born from the fact that religion, in particular Christianity, is incredibly influential in our world.
You see, there's no "original sin". There was no time in which things were good and suddenly men, driven by greed, corruption or whatever, changed things around and turned them away from their original purpose. Christianity's mythical creation is so engraved in our social subconscious that we always tend to do these sorts of reasonings, in a lot of ways and in a lot of areas. We can't really know, but I'm pretty sure religion (just like any other social phenomena in the history of mankind) wasn't born out of an individual idea, but rather as a social convention. And as such, social conventions are always composed by relationships of inequality. You can see it all throughout history. I don't think we need a mystical reason to single out religion and treat it as different.
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2008-12-27, 01:32 | Link #1413 |
Nani ?
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Emerald Forest ( yes its a real place. )
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In terms of the "sheep mentality" that has been mentioned, I feel reminded of something I thought up a long time ago.
The idea is that all religion is like a field filled with buried gold, but with landmines mixed in. Some religions have more gold to be found then landmines, others have more landmines then gold. In this analogy there are two kinds of treasure hunters: Those with a metal detector that can tell the difference between the two, and those with a metal detector that can't. The comparison is that those who think for themselves and can use critical thinking are people with the former detector, and those who blindly follow are the latter. It doesnt matter what your religion is ( or isn't ) , because without a clear way to understand it it doesn't matter if ones religion happens to be a field where there is only one landmine and tons of treasure because if it's all the same to you then you will eventually step on that landmine. For that reason, I tend to judge ( yes, we all judge ) religions solely on the basis of whether or not they encourage the members to think for themselves or not ( or in terms of the analogy, which type of detector they try to sell to you at the entrance to their treasure field ) . It doesn't matter how much bad and how much good is in a philosophy, because it doesn't really make a lick of difference to people who's heads are too firmly lodged in the sand to be able tell the difference. BTW I consider myself a "spiritual atheist". take that to mean what you will. |
2008-12-27, 02:54 | Link #1415 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2008-12-27, 07:34 | Link #1416 |
Gregory House
IT Support
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I didn't say it was "malice". And I didn't say their belief wasn't "genuine", either (even the healer's, using your example). But the thing is, once you have such a relationship of inequality, there's already a person who has an edge over his or her peers. That's what power is about, after all.
As I said before, the idea that people are somehow evil or malicious when it comes to this sort of stuff has roots in religious traditions. I don't see it that way--I just see it as a phenomena which was born precisely to separate people and provide power to a small sector of society. I'm not saying that whoever "invented" (lol) religion did it to do just that.
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2008-12-27 at 07:50. |
2008-12-27, 08:32 | Link #1417 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Somewhere in East Asia
Age: 41
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You can find some results on the web not so different from the data we had. http://humaniststudies.org/enews/?id=281&article=0 In 2007 20% of the young american 18-25 years old are atheist, agnostic or nonreligious. 73% of the american believe in "any form of God or any type of supreme being." As for Europe 62 percent of the Italian believe in a god. 48 percent of Spaniards believe in any form of a supreme being. 41 percent of Germans. 35 percent of Britons. 27 percent of the French. As for my country http://www.bjreview.com.cn/headline/...tent_55088.htm 31.4 percent of Chinese aged 16 and above are religious. Take in account that in Europe and China there are even less believers among the young people than from the previous generations |
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2008-12-27, 18:05 | Link #1418 | ||||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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That is the danger. Any idiot can have a dream, but it takes a religious idiot to think that it was a dream sent by God and that there was some message in it with an order that overrides all common sense, morals, and ethics. When that religious idiot is in a powerful position, and when the other religious idiots go along with his dream, you're potentially in big trouble.
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2008-12-27, 18:16 | Link #1419 | ||||
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
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I think it's better to say that people tend to group up into powerful inequality systems (as you put it), which includes the great religions in the world. The operative words here are "inequality systems," not religion. After all, the ideas of Darwin and then Marx also led people form such groups as well, right? It's not like those two people's ideas were meant for that purpose. Quote:
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Atheists and nonreligious people can be subject to such idiocy as well, just as easily. Look at the ravenous hordes of young people in China, who will instantly yell out to you "Die you anti-China element!!!!" if you even so much as begin to question their government. Last time I checked China has no religious organization within it which operates like Christianity or Islam. Quote:
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2008-12-27, 19:24 | Link #1420 | |
is this so?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gradius Home World
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Thank you for the info.
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Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2008-12-28 at 04:18. |
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not a debate, philosophy, religion |
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