2010-07-20, 15:23 | Link #14301 |
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Actually there may be some resons why he would keep shkannon a secret.
First the ...sorry i do not know the english word. "herdenverhalten" "do as the other do" "do not question if the mass does not question" he just came back to his family after 6 years. Second he knows about George/Shannon and maybe even about the engagement (dunno how much he knows in ep5) this could be a prickly subject. is it hinted in the novel why he would keep the lie alive? that's up for everyone to decide for himself. Ya Higurashi and Umineko are so different -_- Higurashi plays in 2 towns, only a handfull of persons and around 2 weeks. Umineko "kills" off 17 People in 2 days on a small island but then again, im glad when i buy a CD from a band i like and not every song sounds the same.
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2010-07-20, 15:26 | Link #14302 | |
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2010-07-20, 15:26 | Link #14303 |
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Again though, whatever Battler's reason, if we assume this is Piece-Battler doing the lying, he has to be lying to someone. The problem with accepting the parlor count as a subsequently-told lie - and under normal circumstances that's no problem to accept at all - is that there's nobody that we know of to whom this information is ever conveyed. If Battler doesn't lie to any other person on the board, he has to be lying to:
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2010-07-20, 15:30 | Link #14304 | |
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2010-07-20, 15:37 | Link #14307 | |
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Of course this "theory" runs into the tiny problem of having no evidence whatsoever at any point, ever. Is it possible for Piece-Battler to lie? Yes. Is it possible for Piece-Battler to lie after the fact? Yes. Is there any evidence whatsoever that Piece-Battler did lie during or after the fact? Absolutely not. In fact, short of our violent rejection of Erika's existence or Shannon and Kanon existing as separate entities in the same place, we have no reason to doubt Battler's testimony in that scene at all. If Shkanon and Erika-Doesn't-Exist both turn out false, we'd all look very stupid for doubting Battler's earnest reporting of a simple fact about which he had no reason to lie... and didn't.
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2010-07-20, 15:50 | Link #14308 | ||
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In the question arcs, Battler had no reason to lie. He was not keeping any secrets, but instead had secrets kept from him. In other words, if you want to include a magic scene in the game, you need to show that Battler would have a reason to believe it. The requirements of this theory are more strict than the commonly accepted one, not less. Quote:
Anyways, how do you explain that scene? There were 18 people in it, but only 17 people alive on the island. Battler's viewpoint could not have shown us the truth, right?
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2010-07-20, 15:56 | Link #14309 |
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I think Battler's scenes add an extra layer on top of things. He tries make things look obvious, but there's actually something extra you need to look for. The earlier games don't have the same thing. They have character development in them and they have the same lies, but their purpose is different. Since the witch's side has no chance of winning at this point it's really just special affects.
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2010-07-20, 15:56 | Link #14310 | |
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Starting from EP5, Erika is the detective and Battler is just a regular piece. Individual characters have lied before; Natsuhi, the servants, and Nanjo must have lied at some point. They are miscellaneous pieces so this is allowed. But, don't forget that Bernkastel created her own piece to take Battler's place as detective. This could have been because Battler refused to continue the game (because of Beato's absence) and she needed a detective, or because she just wanted to create a bitchy version of herself. If Bernkastel wanted to, she could have easily controlled Battler's piece and made him the detective again. But she didn't, so Battler "de-levels" in authority. While Bernkastel certainly does make Battler more intelligent in EP5, the instance of Battler "seeing Kinzo" is proof that Battler is capable of lying in EP5. (And this isn't entirely about what you were saying Renall, but this is my general impression on Battler and your post was the newest ) As for the motive of Battler lying, perhaps he just misinterpreted the events in the room. I use "lie" as a general term for "provides misinformation to the reader." |
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2010-07-20, 16:02 | Link #14311 | ||
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Why is it somehow invalid to make as our foundation "Battler is telling the truth in this parlor scene" and then attempt to explain away the other details as tricks to make us doubt that? I fail to see how that is any less reasonable to assume.
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2010-07-20, 16:07 | Link #14312 | |
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Look, you're doing exactly what you've always accused me of doing with Shkanon, except you haven't proposed a theory to back it up. If you think you can find an internally consistent solution that explains this, be my guest. It's probably a worthwhile venture. But I don't think there will be a satisfying one.
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2010-07-20, 16:17 | Link #14313 |
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I don't owe you or anyone else a theory. Nobody owes anyone anything unless they're making a definitive claim to the true and correct answer, if one even exists.
You say it's a "clue." How can you be sure of that? Again, it's true that it's the first opportunity for Battler to lie, with or without any justification. But do we really want to say that Battler wasn't going to lie until he finally could? Don't we know him better than that? Isn't Battler's simple and often emotionally-charged honesty more trustworthy than ridiculous theories about two people being one or someone seemingly present not really being there? Why can we embrace the latter as viable explanations and dismiss the former as nothing more than a "clue" for more implausible-sounding theories? Why must we distrust Battler? The only evidence he even presents for the unreliability of his own perspective is something which can easily be interpreted as not even precisely a lie. You say it's because he's seeing something impossible. So what I'm saying is: Are we really willing to call it impossible just yet?
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2010-07-20, 16:19 | Link #14314 | |
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If R07 would have wanted to give us a real POV, he would have given us Erika's, I think. Which makes me wonder why Erika never questioned the existence of Shannon and Kanon when they weren't there (as separate people, that is).
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2010-07-20, 16:23 | Link #14315 |
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Have we lost all trust for Battler now? He's going to start lying and misconstructing things because he can? If it's a trap about Battler's reliability, why does Battler challenge his own reliability in the same episode? Won't that immediately send us looking back at everything he said? Ryukishi would be expecting us to doubt that parlor scene. The phrasing of the red proves that. He wants us to doubt somebody was really there. But again I ask: Why do we not have any trust for Battler anymore?
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2010-07-20, 16:29 | Link #14317 |
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Watson sees all the same things Holmes does he just doesn't come to the same conclusions. Calling Battler a 'Watson character' is probably a bad example if your using the unreliable perspective idea. Watson isn't a bumbling idiot he's pretty cultured he just doesn't have an amazing memorization ability like Sherlock Holmes.
Watson reminds me a lot of Nanjo actually I think Ryukishi based Nanjo off the Watson character.
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2010-07-20, 16:33 | Link #14318 |
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The doctor buddy of a detective is a pretty solid mystery genre trope. It traces at least as far back as Watson, though I think it's even detected in Poe (and the detective novel doesn't go much further back than Poe, at least in its modern form). Nanjo being the semi-suspicious and conveniently present doctor is a clear homage, the question is what spin ryukishi's putting on him... if he's not just playing the trope straight.
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2010-07-20, 16:35 | Link #14319 |
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I do distrust Battler a little if it involves Erika. In EP5 he could just prove a fact or help his Aunt from the pesky Erika but he still lies in my eyes with the Kinzo escape. In EP6 he lies to Erika that he does not read books, again Erika was pretty arrogant before that but still.
Nothing is impossible. If we take Maria's riddlebook with the cheese. Umineko is basicly the same thing. "how many cuts do you need to get 8Pieces" You won't see the cheese till EP8 and little below the picture of the cheese is also the answer printed. That is imho why so many Theories exist, no one wants to see the "playground" but then not have time to think about it. btw, anychance that the coin and glass trick is related to EP6 closed rooms?
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2010-07-20, 16:36 | Link #14320 | ||
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