2010-07-20, 19:51 | Link #14341 |
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Location: Italy (Neaples)
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So if you can say "There are 17 people" without the meaning of"exactly 17 people" this means the final red of ep6 doesn't mean anything? Becouse in this case they could also have said "Even if we welcome you there are 4 people".
I don't like the idea of this word play, Erika was pratically dead, what's the point in telling her a "fake" red? |
2010-07-20, 19:54 | Link #14342 |
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I like the idea of the river being time. It's often said to have a flow so it seems quite logical. I don't know about the whole II thing though.
I think if you were to continue with this you'd follow the flow of time downstream so to speak and find the village. You'd know when you were at it by the presence of the two, as in, the two hands. I'm not sure about this (I don't speak Japanese), but at 10:20 the two hands point to 10 and 4 which I think can be said as too and shi. And according to the ever reliable internet dictionaries, toshi is a word for town. Edit: Oh god. 10 4 October 4th anyone? Last edited by Burkie; 2010-07-20 at 19:59. Reason: Wow took me way too long to cop that. |
2010-07-20, 20:01 | Link #14343 | |
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The point of the example is to question just how "contradictory" any of these potential reds are, with each other or with particular views. It entirely depends upon construction and whether there exists any implicit "exactly" or "at least." A good example in that list of a contradictory pair of reds that really aren't is "there have been 13 eggs in the carton" vs. "there have never been more than 12 eggs in the carton." Both statements are entirely true (and in fact neither depends on an implicit assumption). They appear contradictory, but I wonder.
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2010-07-20, 20:02 | Link #14344 | |
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And I don't think Renall's saying it's fake. He's just showing how the reds can look contradictory at face value I think.
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2010-07-20, 20:08 | Link #14345 | |
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I don't think it works even if he is dead at the start in a lot of ways. It'd make more sense if he was simply not on the island that day because a conspiracy to keep Kanon alive requires ridiculous levels of assumptions. Almost on the same level as Shkanon. Kinzo is different because if he's revealed to be dead they have to distribute the inheritance and on top of that they get taxed 70%. Keeping Kanon alive has no benefits for anyone whatsoever. EDIT: Except for the person who murdered him possibly.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-20 at 20:22. |
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2010-07-20, 20:32 | Link #14346 |
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I know, but i think you're just overthinking it. Of course we can argue about the ambiguity of every signle red that has been shown, but i don't think we can found many answers in word plays. I mean, it is difficult to explain something (the red truth) without leaving possibilities of different interpretations. The names issue is the biggest example, when a red says "Rudolf is dead" we could even doubt if it is talking about the Rudolf that we know of someone else. But i don't think this will lead anywere...
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2010-07-20, 20:35 | Link #14347 | |
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2010-07-20, 20:35 | Link #14348 |
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Yes, but that's the point; the red has always used implicit assumptions. We aren't always told what they are, or what the rules for them are. Unless we are certain of them, are we certain they say what we've come to think they say?
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2010-07-20, 21:03 | Link #14351 | |
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Still, if the red is going to have an unconventional meaning, there had better be some clue to tell us what it actually does mean.
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2010-07-20, 21:05 | Link #14352 | |
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Now I'm pondering the idea of a guaranteed kill for certain people. I mean, besides the 10th Twilight, which kills (almost) everyone anyways. If you think about it there has to be at least one person, the culprit, who has an intention to always kill at least one other person. This would reflect Lambdadelta's powers, or follow Takano's story in Higurashi. A very strong will to kill ... Kanon? and Krauss? Of course that 'culprit' could just be intending to kill *everyone* and then trying to detect him this way won't work... hm. (I don't mean the Midnight Bomber, of course.) |
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2010-07-20, 21:08 | Link #14353 | |
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I've never liked this concept of saying in red that there is less of something when in reality, the exact number is more. Sure, you can only see that there is X number of something, but that doesn't mean the other Y-X thing(s) don't exist. The way I see it, you can say "I counted seven eggs in the carton," when there are really eleven eggs in the carton, but you can't say "there are seven eggs." |
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2010-07-20, 21:15 | Link #14355 | |
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2010-07-20, 21:24 | Link #14356 |
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If we could trust the red just like that then we'd have only 5 suspicious persons
EP2: It was said in red in EP4 that the 6 people found in the chapel were dead at the time they were discovered. EP3: It was said in red that the 5 servants + Kinzo were dead. This was right at the moment the relatives found them very early in the game. And we know people still keep dying. Should we trust this red texts? |
2010-07-20, 21:40 | Link #14358 | |
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As well, if I remember correctly, Battler narrates how the adults went around finding the corpses, then Beato proclaims them dead. This leaves time for people discovered earlier to move around before dying. However, I'm still not sure to what means. |
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2010-07-20, 22:09 | Link #14359 |
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I'm saying, in circumstances where the red is obviously open to interpretation (the end of ep6), we can't be sure of a certain interpretation. A pattern might give us some idea, but otherwise we need rules of construction.
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2010-07-20, 22:14 | Link #14360 | |
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Anyways, you are right eleven (not counting Battler) people are capable of killing those five and leaving Kinzo in the boiler room, or one of those five could have killed the other four (not counting Kinzo) and then die due to an accident. My point is that people still die after that. -If one of the five is the culprit (not counting Kinzo), then the culprit died early in the game after killing the other four servants and leaving Kinzo in the boiler room. However people keep dying later on, does this mean there is more than 1 culprit? I dont like this idea. -If one of the eleven is the culprit, and killed the servants in EP3 while they were faking death, it works fine. However, six of them died early in EP2, the red says so. And people still keep dying. This leaves us with five suspects George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, and Rosa. Of course, this is only if there is no trick in one of the reds that claim in both EP2 and EP3 that the six people in the first twilight are truly dead and if there is only one person that is killing people. What do you guys think? Is there someone else that took the role of culprit in one of this episodes? Two culprits or anyone can be the culprit depending on certain things that happen? Or is there a trick in this reds? Or is the culprit one of the five I mentioned? Last edited by zRyuu; 2010-07-20 at 22:34. |
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