[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[delita-umw-]

I'm actually kinda curious, how does Bern's power work? Does she have to search for a specific miracle or does she just aimlessly search till she sees something she likes? Cause if so, perhaps the part that has a bad affinity would be the conjunction of several seemingly unrelated miracles that would have to occur at the same time in order to break the closed circle? There would also have to be something about these 3 that would prevent them from all occurring at the same time by chance. Like, in a natural environment A+B could happen but if it does, C does not?

[Kylon99]

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3...dolfmakeup.png
Rudolf: ".........I'm going to go fix my makeup. Don't follow me."

EP1. Just after Kyrie talks to Battler about chessboard thinking for the first time. Rudolf comes in and teases Kyrie about taking too long to fix her makeup. Then he says he'll probably be killed tonight. Then he says the above.

Since I'm thinking Rudolf brought Battler back and thus knows about the fakery this whole scene seems suspicious... but at the very least, I'm sure Ryukishi brought up the idea about makeup knowing we would return one day and see this line. 8)

That Ryukishi... look what he writes next!

Spoiler for Spoiler for EP1 ... you'd better have read it by now...:

This seems to be a narrator speaking from Natsuhi's point of view

"Naturally, Beatrice was nothing more than a fictional character used to pass a message that Kinzo had written himself. The proof was that Kinzo remained stubbornly neutral as to that letter's authenticity. ... He was completely ignoring these reckless claims that he shouldn't be able to ignore: that he had given up the Head's Ring ... In short, Kinzo had wordlessly admitted that the letter held his own message."

Except.. she knows he's dead. 8) I'm thinking the narrator or Natsuhi can get away with this if we consider 'Kinzo' just like how people considered Kinzo to be 'alive' in EP4.

Spoiler for Spoiler for EP1:

Then the next line:

"Kinzo had probably worked out an elaborate plan where the dress from the portrait would be prepared... and someone, probably Shannon, would be made to wear it and deliver the letter and the umbrella. By doing that, he could make it seem like the witch from the portrait actually existed. No, if anything, from that alone you could conclude that Kinzo was behind all of this."

Congratulations! Nappi has solved Umineko!

Geez.. that Ryukishi is... evil incarnate.

I bet you EP1 is full of answers written directly on the screen, in a in-your-face manner. We should all replay with that in mind. I bet we'd solve everything just from one liners in the game. 8)

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by delita-umw-

*snip*

There are some very detailed explanations for how her and Lambda's powers work in the Lambda thread

[delita-umw-]

Many thanks

edit: having read a bit more on Bern's power, is the interaction of their powers something like this? Bern has a die. Her power allows her to roll the die an infinite number of times to get whatever result she wants. But what if the number that Beato sets to win the game is whatever Bern got, +1. Or 7. Something that cannot be achieved purely by chance and something that could only be solved by doing something outside of the box, like adding a second die. Or having a total of seven.

[zRyuu]

I dont agree with that being rule Z, because Rokkenjima is definetely a closed room.. so yea. Also, it never changes, its never possible to do calls unless they are from the mansion to the guesthouse, Krauss's boat is always being repaired so i dont see how this is a maze that changes its shape in order to hide rule X and Y. We can't even be sure about the phone calls if we consider that Battler never tries to call someone.

[zRyuu]

Originally Posted by delita-umw-

Many thanks

edit: having read a bit more on Bern's power, is the interaction of their powers something like this? Bern has a die. Her power allows her to roll the die an infinite number of times to get whatever result she wants. But what if the number that Beato sets to win the game is whatever Bern got, +1. Or 7. Something that cannot be achieved purely by chance and something that could only be solved by doing something outside of the box, like adding a second die. Or having a total of seven.

Bern has a dice. With her power she can roll the dice an infinite number of times till she gets the best result, 6. If you give the dice to Beatrice, she can roll the dice, and with whatever result, she gets she is fine with it.

The reason why this is fine for Beatrice can be better explained with chess.
If Beato gets a 6, every move will be the best move (the way Lambda plays). The problem with this is that if every move is like this then her moves will be very predictable eventually (specially when the opponent is cornered). Beatrice will win, but after some limited number of games Bern would find a pattern and beat her.
If Beato gets a 3, she is fine with it. There will be some moves that can be called "noise". They arent the best, but they can be misdirections, illusions, etc. Of course, this means there are some weakness in this moves, however if you are as incompetent as Battler is you will be too busy trying to understand the "noise". This makes Beato unpredictable, no pattern at all which is why Bern has a hard time indetifying the rules of the game.

In my opinion, the whole rule Z is related to Beatrice being a fickle person.

For rules:

Rule X is probably related to the murders. All the killings that happen and how is possible for any of the seventeen to have done it. It's a rule that causes misdirections. In other words, these misdirections are the fantasy scenes shown to us covering the real culprit, and possibly the fake murders too. It makes us suspect people that are not killers and hides the true identity of the culprit. It's the core of the way the witch side play.

Rule Y is the whole belief that Beatrice exists and the source of her magic. Maria and the Beatrice faction feeds this rule. The whole rule X feeds this rule too. Beatrice exists because of this rule.

Rule Z is a maze that changes its shape and hides the truth of rule X and Y. The rule changes because Beatrice is fickle. Like the fickle roulette mentioned in EP3 the things that happen in Rokkenjima are always different and considered random. By having a new result in the fickle roulette or having a different result on the dice, we get different situations with the same outcome, people die. It hides the truth of rule Y by showing people like George and Jessica using magic, Rosa meeting Beatrice, Kyrie and Jessica talking about magic, Natsuhi talking with Beatrice, etc. It hides the truth of rule X by showing people dying in a different order and new possible murderers. With new developments, rule X and Y grow bigger and full of noise.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3...dolfmakeup.png
Rudolf: ".........I'm going to go fix my makeup. Don't follow me."

EP1. Just after Kyrie talks to Battler about chessboard thinking for the first time. Rudolf comes in and teases Kyrie about taking too long to fix her makeup. Then he says he'll probably be killed tonight. Then he says the above.

Since I'm thinking Rudolf brought Battler back and thus knows about the fakery this whole scene seems suspicious... but at the very least, I'm sure Ryukishi brought up the idea about makeup knowing we would return one day and see this line. 8)

That Ryukishi... look what he writes next!

Spoiler for Spoiler for EP1 ... you'd better have read it by now...:

This seems to be a narrator speaking from Natsuhi's point of view

"Naturally, Beatrice was nothing more than a fictional character used to pass a message that Kinzo had written himself. The proof was that Kinzo remained stubbornly neutral as to that letter's authenticity. ... He was completely ignoring these reckless claims that he shouldn't be able to ignore: that he had given up the Head's Ring ... In short, Kinzo had wordlessly admitted that the letter held his own message."

Except.. she knows he's dead. 8) I'm thinking the narrator or Natsuhi can get away with this if we consider 'Kinzo' just like how people considered Kinzo to be 'alive' in EP4.

Spoiler for Spoiler for EP1:

Then the next line:

"Kinzo had probably worked out an elaborate plan where the dress from the portrait would be prepared... and someone, probably Shannon, would be made to wear it and deliver the letter and the umbrella. By doing that, he could make it seem like the witch from the portrait actually existed. No, if anything, from that alone you could conclude that Kinzo was behind all of this."

Congratulations! Nappi has solved Umineko!

Geez.. that Ryukishi is... evil incarnate.

I bet you EP1 is full of answers written directly on the screen, in a in-your-face manner. We should all replay with that in mind. I bet we'd solve everything just from one liners in the game. 8)

This is exactly the kind of mystery novel that I truly consider the work of a genius. Those are the ones that when you learn the solution you notice it was behind your nose the whole time. Simple.

Those mystery novels that rely on extremely difficult explanations and convoluted overlapping plots are mediocre works. Any idiot can make an almost impossible to solve riddle by adding tons of variables.

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

This is exactly the kind of mystery novel that I truly consider the work of a genius. Those are the ones that when you learn the solution you notice it was behind your nose the whole time. Simple.

Those mystery novels that rely on extremely difficult explanations and convoluted overlapping plots are mediocre works. Any idiot can make an almost impossible to solve riddle by adding tons of variables.

If there's any outright strength in Ryukishi's writing, it is the hidden-in-plain-sight foreshadowing that is either hilarious (why can't we call him Goldsmith?) or a slap in the face later on. I've always been impressed by some of the in-episode foreshadowing too, like the North Wind and the Sun in EP3 and Kanon losing the card game in EP6 (although that one was almost a little too obvious).

More reasons for me to pick up EP1 one more time before I pull out the last-minute machine gun of speculations .

[Renall]

Well, the part about it actually being Kinzo's will (whether you mean will as desire or will like the testamentary kind) is still up in the air. Just how much Kinzo intended in all of this isn't so certain yet. Certainly it would do "Beatrice" a lot of good if people believed that Kinzo was behind it all, but was he?

[Oliver]

Spoiler for the horror!:

Well, wasn't he?

We know way too little about the old man, or to be more specific, way too little of what we know is in any way reliable.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by zRyuu

I dont agree with that being rule Z, because Rokkenjima is definetely a closed room.. so yea. Also, it never changes, its never possible to do calls unless they are from the mansion to the guesthouse, Krauss's boat is always being repaired so i dont see how this is a maze that changes its shape in order to hide rule X and Y. We can't even be sure about the phone calls if we consider that Battler never tries to call someone.

That's not what I said it was and I'm not sure my idea is really Z either, but it makes sense to me. What I said was that the Closed circle rule is flexible and that's what I think Rule Z is. The closed circle rule doesn't just refer to people coming in and out it also refer to contacting inside and out. Erika and Suit Beato are pretty much proof that that the closed circle rule can be bent. The fantasy characters appearing one after another even after Beato dies is another indication of it.

As for the phones we know that Battler receives phone calls (Ep 1 and Ep4) and whose to say the Beatrice on the phone wasn't from the outside line? We also don't know that Krauss's Boat is really broken just like we could suspect the radios are not really broken. Nobody really checks.

What it really comes down to is realizing this idea is flexible so that the detective does actual work so he can finally grab the culprit by the collar!

And food for thought rule Z like this idea is said to be indefinite and have a fluid face

... I can understand it using this general idea.
But, if I try to grasp it as a rule, I can't understand it at all.
Because, originally, rules are immutable things, right?
Indefinite things being rules are beyond my common sense.
Even though it should be solid, it possesses a fluid face.

[zRyuu]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

This is exactly the kind of mystery novel that I truly consider the work of a genius. Those are the ones that when you learn the solution you notice it was behind your nose the whole time. Simple.

Those mystery novels that rely on extremely difficult explanations and convoluted overlapping plots are mediocre works. Any idiot can make an almost impossible to solve riddle by adding tons of variables.

Spoiler for For things behind our nose:

Ronove: That is why furniture is so frightening. Sometimes they even become witches, and treat demons as butlers. *cough* Beatrice *cough*
Beatrice: It was chosen by the fickle roulette.
Shannon, Maria, Kanon, everyone: Beatrice is a fickle person.
Beatrice: Jessica killed Kanon, and faked her death. lol if this is true
Battler talking how romance novels are harder to understand than mystery novels in EP1.

Cant think of more for now.

[Marion]

Battler talking how romance novels are harder to understand than mystery novels in EP1.

That was actually Kyrie, talking to Battler before Rudolf came in. She even mentioned North Wind and Sun.

[Renall]

It's strange that Beatrice is repeatedly called a fickle witch, yet she swears in red that she keeps her promises. You would think being arbitrary and binding oneself to agreements would be conflicting character traits.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Renall

It's strange that Beatrice is repeatedly called a fickle witch, yet she swears in red that she keeps her promises. You would think being arbitrary and binding oneself to agreements would be conflicting character traits.

Not at all. Loki, the Norse trickster god, is the archetypal example, arbitrary in everything and yet very strictly keeping promises, even those given under duress.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

It's strange that Beatrice is repeatedly called a fickle witch, yet she swears in red that she keeps her promises. You would think being arbitrary and binding oneself to agreements would be conflicting character traits.

Well, it may be that the person actually is fickle, but it could also be the nature of lies. Obviously, if you're telling lies all the time, you'd need to do a little clean up work to make sure that they all fit together. If it's clear that you have a motive for everything you do, then you have to construct reasons for why you did everything you did. If you pretend to be fickle, however, you can just say "I did it because I felt like it".

Kind of the opposite of Evatrice asking Battler to explain Kyrie's motives. You could also call it the best defense against chessboard thinking.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Not at all. Loki, the Norse trickster god, is the archetypal example, arbitrary in everything and yet very strictly keeping promises, even those given under duress.

Yes but the duress part is kind of important. Loki doesn't make promises unless he can't help it, and then he's usually doing it under pain of death or worse.

And then he still looks for a way out of it.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, it may be that the person actually is fickle, but it could also be the nature of lies. Obviously, if you're telling lies all the time, you'd need to do a little clean up work to make sure that they all fit together. If it's clear that you have a motive for everything you do, then you have to construct reasons for why you did everything you did. If you pretend to be fickle, however, you can just say "I did it because I felt like it".

Kind of the opposite of Evatrice asking Battler to explain Kyrie's motives. You could also call it the best defense against chessboard thinking.

While that's certainly true, it means everyone who is describing Beatrice as fickle is either mistaken, misled, or lying to cover for her. Entirely possible, of course, and Meta-Beatrice never really gives off the impression that she's at all arbitrary in what she does.

The other possibility is that there are multiple Beatrices; one is fickle, one holds fast to promises. Beatrice can claim both traits because they don't technically contradict each other, and represent two different aspects of "herself."

[chronotrig]

Well, most of the characters are Beatrice's furniture, so it makes sense that they'd go along with that, either because they were tricked or because she just made them that way. Plus, I can imagine the whole 'fickle' thing is something Lambda would like, since it keeps Battler from finding out the truth. In fact, she might have been the one responsible for that in the first place.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

It's strange that Beatrice is repeatedly called a fickle witch, yet she swears in red that she keeps her promises. You would think being arbitrary and binding oneself to agreements would be conflicting character traits.

As it turns out a lot of things Kanon and Shannon and others say about Beatrice turn out to be false. Specifically Kanon saying she's just doing what she does to intimidate people.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, most of the characters are Beatrice's furniture, so it makes sense that they'd go along with that, either because they were tricked or because she just made them that way. Plus, I can imagine the whole 'fickle' thing is something Lambda would like, since it keeps Battler from finding out the truth. In fact, she might have been the one responsible for that in the first place.

Which is rather clever of her, considering how fickle she appears to be and yet, by her very nature, we know she basically cannot be.