AnimeSuki Forums

zRyuu · 2010-07-23, 16:46

Beatrice can be fickle in certain aspects of her personality. There is an obvious lack of constancy in the murders of every game, so at least she is fickle when it's related to this aspect of the gameboard. The explanation of Beatrice's power with the dice shows this side of her personality too. Whatever the result is, she'll say that was what she wanted to get. Rule Z changing can also be a proof of this fickle personality.

rogerpepitone · 2010-07-23, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

He did solve it though. Everyone knew about that in fact. And yet the plotline murders are still going on. Krauss was even allegedly murdered for real in that episode.

Is it specifically confirmed that Krauss was murdered? Is it possible his death was an accident or suicide (bit his tongue)?

Judoh · 2010-07-23, 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Is it specifically confirmed that Krauss was murdered? Is it possible his death was an accident or suicide (bit his tongue)?

Ushiromiya Krauss is not the culprit. And he was killed long ago, shortly after you heard his voice over the phone, get it?

I don't think you can turn "killed" into accident or suicide no matter how hard you try.

Leafsnail · 2010-07-23, 19:57

"I'm going to fix my makeup"... wow. Quite a find, that.

Does anyone else find it odd that the last thing Eva says while alive is that she wants to go to the Maldives... right now? And that we don't hear Hideyoshi's response to it? Perhaps it's her payment for participating in the ritual.

Also, one thing I noticed - the initial description of the stake in Eva's head is odd. That something is "growing out of it"...

LaplaceNoMa · 2010-07-23, 20:24

Come on guys. Re-read the goddamn scene. This Rudolf's phrase is sarcasm directed on Kyrie. The whole scene starts with Rudolf saying something like 'It sure took you some time to fix your make up. I'm going to start doing that too.' to Kyrie.

Stop trying to find deep meaning somewhere where it wasn't supposed to be. We're not some bakemonogatari fans, are we?

zRyuu · 2010-07-23, 20:27

I wonder. I did ask myself at that moment how could Eva be thinking about wasting money on traveling with Hideyoshi's company in a bad situation. Even if Hideyoshi loses his company, I bet Eva can maintain him and herself though

. The whole fakery seems silly considering all the financial problems the siblings have unless they get something out of it. Anyways, both of their deaths in EP1 are strange and it's more likely that they were faking it. And yea I know its extremely odd that Hideyoshi is faking his death naked in the bathroom, although the only one that saw him was Kanon. If i remember correctly I dont think the rest got too close and I think it's possibly to see Hideyoshi's head with the stake in it outside the bathroom. No reason to get any closer. At least Battler didnt, right?

Used Can · 2010-07-23, 20:31

I'm wondering though, if the 1st Twilight was supposed to be trickery who is it that it was supposed to trick? I had thought about this possibility long ago, on how the siblings faked murder to intimidate Krauss and Natsuhi, but it happened that Krauss was amongst the dead people, and both, Krauss and Natsuhi died in the 1st Twilight in EP2. So, the very idea of faked deaths in EPs 1-2 make very little sense, in my opinion.

Another thing I thought, based on some suspicious events in EP3 concerning Rudolph, Kyrie and Hideyoshi, I though of the possibility of either Rudolph or Kyrie faking their deaths in EPs 1-2. However, in EP1 Battler saw their corpses, and then they got confirmed as dead in EP4. That, and for EP2's 1st Twilight we've got Reds from EP4 saying that the 6 people in the chapel were genuine victims who did not take part in murder. So, this particular theory doesn't hold in my opinion.

zRyuu · 2010-07-23, 20:44

Quote:

However, in EP1 Battler saw their corpses, and then they got confirmed as dead in EP4.

The identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed.

By corpses we are talking about the body of a person who died, right? The "unidentified corpses" would be the ones whose face got smashed. However, if they were faking death can they be considered corpses? If they were alive, they cant be considered corpses, because corpse = dead pearson right?. So if you have some of this 6 people with make-up or w/e faking death they are alive and cannot be considered corpses. Furthermore, there is no red that states there is a corpse or dead person in the storehouse.
This red was only used to beat Battler's reasoning of a fake corpse, and it does work for that reasoning. But i dont think it works if they were alive at the time they were faking death.

Used Can · 2010-07-23, 20:47

That's cool and all, but how do you fake a smashed face? I mean, perhaps I'm too small-minded, but I believe that's a bit too hard to fake.

One the other hand, there was a corpse Battler never confirmed visually.

zRyuu · 2010-07-23, 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Used Can

That's cool and all, but how do you fake a smashed face? I mean, perhaps I'm too small-minded, but I believe that's a bit too hard to fake.

One the other hand, there was a corpse Battler never confirmed visually.

I cant say much about how to do it. Put them to sleep, a layer on their faces and lots of the sticky red substance over there. Battler did describe the scene at the beginning as something that he has seen in TV, anime, manga, movies, and the word make-up was mentioned twice or three times. If it's possible to do it on movies, it could be possible to do in real life, right? At this time, Battler can be considered incompetent enough to be fooled

. The whole description of some of their front teeth not being there doesnt really help though, but i dont know much about make-up, theather, and stuffs like that to say that it's impossible to fake something like that.
For the corpse he never confirmed, I think Shannon's body was a bit hidden and Battler never got close enough to see her body. Only Hideyoshi did, close enough to see the ring at least.

Renall · 2010-07-23, 22:10

The extent to which Battler actually touches smashed faces in ep1 and ep4 is questionable. I find the uniformity of the damage and complete lack of any evidence of shooting or a weapon in ep4 extremely suspicious. If it's just really good makeup it might make a bit more sense, but I agree that this degree of gore and such seems improbable.

Still, somebody has enough skill to make a Beatrice disguise... or if they are Beatrice, a someone-else disguise.

Judoh · 2010-07-23, 22:12

We're talking about episode 4 right? Battler never sees the corpses until the very end and there is no red in this game so there is no need for them to be "corpses" until he discovered them himself.

That and that red your talking about refers to episode 1. None of the corpses in episode 4 were unidentifiable because half of their faces were still intact. That's a move that Beato deliberately made so she wouldn't have the same problem as in episode 1.

DaBackpack · 2010-07-23, 22:20

Hmm. Rereading a part of EP6 again, strange thought.
About Erika's boyfriend.
Isn't it a bit strange how a 17-year old girl has such a close watch over her boyfriend? I mean, really,

Quote:

DLANOR: I demand that you provide evidence that I have been CHEATING.
Erika: Counter with the blue truth. I present 84 points of circumstantial and physical evidence.

Quote:

Mystery Boyfriend: I'm gonna devote my whole life to you, so I want you to do the same for me. Let's find happiness together.

Quote:

Erika: A new wallet.
The toilet seat was left down.
He spent the night over at his stage friends' place.
The muddy soles are evidence that you went out on Monday when it was raining.
How do you know the plot of a movie you haven't seen yet?

This is... a bit much, especially for a high-school romance! This scene indicates a relationship much stronger than one found from a 17 year-old. This shows that Erika and her boyfriend lived together. What is this, School Days? Teenagers don't live together at such a young age, do they?
Plus she always refers to him as "that man," not "that boy," or "that jerk," or whatever.

I thought at the end of EP6 (when the mindrape reds about Erika are shown) that Erika was just a name for one of the existing characters. Perhaps another character, similar to EVA-Beatrice or something.

(This next part is purely speculation and I'm sure there is a lot to contradict it, especially the first twilight of EP5.)

When I considered adults that had boyfriend problems, one name immediately arose: Rosa Ushiromiya.

Rosa Ushiromiya
Possible connections: Tries to disprove magic to Maria. Capable of solving the epitaph. Boyfriend issues.
Proof Against: Rosa dies in both of the First Twilights. Kills Maria in EP6.

Then I thought of some other possibilities:

Eva Ushiromiya
Possible connections: Doesn't like Jessica. Capable of solving the epitaph. Paper receipt door seals. Doesn't like Natsuhi.
Proof against: Dies in the First Twilight of EP6.

Kyrie Ushiromiya
Possibile connections: Highly intelligent. Familiar with the mystery genre. Boyfriend issues.
Proof against: Dies in the First Twilight of EP6.

The main problem with Erika being another character is that each of the listed characters dies at least once in EP5 and EP6. I present a list of blue truths that may have the beginnings of a feasible theory:

Erika Furudo is a collective mindset shared amongst the females of Rokkenjima.

Erika Furudo can actually be all of the females on Rokkenjima, taking turns.

Erika is indeed her own entity and does not die when she arrives on Rokkenjima. She just, well, lived closely to her boyfriend.

The scene about Erika's boyfriend is not to be taken literally.

I know that this is a long-shot, but what are your thoughts?

Titanguy654 · 2010-07-23, 22:36

Your theories don't fit with the following red truths:

I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!

There are 17 people.

DaBackpack · 2010-07-23, 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titanguy654

Your theories don't fit with the following red truths:

I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!

There are 17 people.

Well, it's been said in this thread that it is possible that Erika's body is the 18th "human" on Rokkenjima (she washes up dead on Rokkenjima, for example), but the actual detective Erika is another personality of an existing character. I don't think it's said that the body that washed up on Rokkenjima is the same person as the one detecting (in the red truth, at least). Thus,

I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!
There are 17 people.

Using "human" to define "human body," but "people" to define "living humans."

Judoh · 2010-07-23, 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titanguy654

Your theories don't fit with the following red truths:

I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!

There are 17 people.

How? I don't see any contradictions. Other than the undefined implicit assumptions that are in these red truths.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

but the actual detective Erika is another personality of an existing character.

Not to my knowledge.

DaBackpack · 2010-07-23, 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

Not to my knowledge.

I always thought Erika was allowed to be shown because everyone acknowledged an existing character as the detective, like they did with Kinzo in EP4. Or one of the other theories I mentioned on the previous page.

I guess "personality" isn't the best way to describe it, but "alias."

Judoh · 2010-07-23, 23:11

The way I see it is that it's a title. What she's saying is the same as saying. I am Bilbo Baggins one of the many hobbits that live in the shire. Or something similar.

MetalGearFlaccid · 2010-07-24, 00:26

A little off-topic here, but I was wondering earlier today...

What is the termination condition for the loop of games that Meta-Battler has gone/is going through?

I thought it was understood that the initial collection of games was to remind Battler of his "sin." At the end of Ep5, he realizes and understands his sin.
And yet, instead of becoming free from the Meta-World/Time Loop, he goes on to become the Game Master; the exact position that has been his opponent the entire time!

Is he still trapped in the endless loop of games, or does he have a purpose to stay and play them, even though it seems as though he has no further obligations?

Judoh · 2010-07-24, 00:32

Bern said it in episode 5. There is a long conversation between him and her and it's important.

You will never be released as long as this game remains unresolved.

Every mystery must be solved for Battler to return. Unfortunately he didn't get a chance to do that.

That and we don't actually know that the games are loops. In fact there is lots of information in the games to suggest that's not the case. Like the message bottles and the forgeries. Umineko is most likely a fiction within a fiction instead of a series of parallel universes.

2010-07-23, 20:31	Link #14487
Used Can Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	I'm wondering though, if the 1st Twilight was supposed to be trickery who is it that it was supposed to trick? I had thought about this possibility long ago, on how the siblings faked murder to intimidate Krauss and Natsuhi, but it happened that Krauss was amongst the dead people, and both, Krauss and Natsuhi died in the 1st Twilight in EP2. So, the very idea of faked deaths in EPs 1-2 make very little sense, in my opinion. Another thing I thought, based on some suspicious events in EP3 concerning Rudolph, Kyrie and Hideyoshi, I though of the possibility of either Rudolph or Kyrie faking their deaths in EPs 1-2. However, in EP1 Battler saw their corpses, and then they got confirmed as dead in EP4. That, and for EP2's 1st Twilight we've got Reds from EP4 saying that the 6 people in the chapel were genuine victims who did not take part in murder. So, this particular theory doesn't hold in my opinion. __________________ "The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom

2010-07-23, 20:47	Link #14489
Used Can Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	That's cool and all, but how do you fake a smashed face? I mean, perhaps I'm too small-minded, but I believe that's a bit too hard to fake. One the other hand, there was a corpse Battler never confirmed visually. __________________ "The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom

2010-07-23, 22:10	Link #14491
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	The extent to which Battler actually touches smashed faces in ep1 and ep4 is questionable. I find the uniformity of the damage and complete lack of any evidence of shooting or a weapon in ep4 extremely suspicious. If it's just really good makeup it might make a bit more sense, but I agree that this degree of gore and such seems improbable. Still, somebody has enough skill to make a Beatrice disguise... or if they are Beatrice, a someone-else disguise. __________________ Redaction of the Golden Witch I submit that a murder was committed in 1996. This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986. This story is a redacted confession. Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists Battler Solves The Logic Error

2010-07-23, 22:12	Link #14492
Judoh Mystery buff Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gone Fishin!	We're talking about episode 4 right? Battler never sees the corpses until the very end and there is no red in this game so there is no need for them to be "corpses" until he discovered them himself. That and that red your talking about refers to episode 1. None of the corpses in episode 4 were unidentifiable because half of their faces were still intact. That's a move that Beato deliberately made so she wouldn't have the same problem as in episode 1. __________________ Judoh's George Culprit Analysis George steals candy from kids! Archive of Ryukishi interviews Gold truth theories:"

2010-07-23, 23:11	Link #14498
Judoh Mystery buff Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gone Fishin!	The way I see it is that it's a title. What she's saying is the same as saying. I am Bilbo Baggins one of the many hobbits that live in the shire. Or something similar. __________________ Judoh's George Culprit Analysis George steals candy from kids! Archive of Ryukishi interviews Gold truth theories:"

2010-07-23, 16:46	Link #14481
zRyuu Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	Beatrice can be fickle in certain aspects of her personality. There is an obvious lack of constancy in the murders of every game, so at least she is fickle when it's related to this aspect of the gameboard. The explanation of Beatrice's power with the dice shows this side of her personality too. Whatever the result is, she'll say that was what she wanted to get. Rule Z changing can also be a proof of this fickle personality.

2010-07-23, 19:57	Link #14484
Leafsnail Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	"I'm going to fix my makeup"... wow. Quite a find, that. Does anyone else find it odd that the last thing Eva says while alive is that she wants to go to the Maldives... right now? And that we don't hear Hideyoshi's response to it? Perhaps it's her payment for participating in the ritual. Also, one thing I noticed - the initial description of the stake in Eva's head is odd. That something is "growing out of it"...

2010-07-23, 20:24	Link #14485
LaplaceNoMa Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Age: 36	Come on guys. Re-read the goddamn scene. This Rudolf's phrase is sarcasm directed on Kyrie. The whole scene starts with Rudolf saying something like 'It sure took you some time to fix your make up. I'm going to start doing that too.' to Kyrie. Stop trying to find deep meaning somewhere where it wasn't supposed to be. We're not some bakemonogatari fans, are we?

2010-07-23, 20:27	Link #14486
zRyuu Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	I wonder. I did ask myself at that moment how could Eva be thinking about wasting money on traveling with Hideyoshi's company in a bad situation. Even if Hideyoshi loses his company, I bet Eva can maintain him and herself though . The whole fakery seems silly considering all the financial problems the siblings have unless they get something out of it. Anyways, both of their deaths in EP1 are strange and it's more likely that they were faking it. And yea I know its extremely odd that Hideyoshi is faking his death naked in the bathroom, although the only one that saw him was Kanon. If i remember correctly I dont think the rest got too close and I think it's possibly to see Hideyoshi's head with the stake in it outside the bathroom. No reason to get any closer. At least Battler didnt, right?

2010-07-23, 22:36	Link #14494
Titanguy654 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009	Your theories don't fit with the following red truths: I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!! There are 17 people.

2010-07-24, 00:26	Link #14499
MetalGearFlaccid Intellectual Rape-ee Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: In a closed room's closet waiting for a redhead to save me Age: 34	A little off-topic here, but I was wondering earlier today... What is the termination condition for the loop of games that Meta-Battler has gone/is going through? I thought it was understood that the initial collection of games was to remind Battler of his "sin." At the end of Ep5, he realizes and understands his sin. And yet, instead of becoming free from the Meta-World/Time Loop, he goes on to become the Game Master; the exact position that has been his opponent the entire time! Is he still trapped in the endless loop of games, or does he have a purpose to stay and play them, even though it seems as though he has no further obligations? __________________ What I love about Umineko is that it is probably the only series ever to have fans of characters that probably don't even exist in the boundaries of the fiction's world! --------------------------------- Proud member of the 0.001 percent of Umineko fans who enjoyed the anime.

2010-07-24, 00:32	Link #14500
Judoh Mystery buff Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gone Fishin!	Bern said it in episode 5. There is a long conversation between him and her and it's important. You will never be released as long as this game remains unresolved. Every mystery must be solved for Battler to return. Unfortunately he didn't get a chance to do that. That and we don't actually know that the games are loops. In fact there is lots of information in the games to suggest that's not the case. Like the message bottles and the forgeries. Umineko is most likely a fiction within a fiction instead of a series of parallel universes. __________________ Judoh's George Culprit Analysis George steals candy from kids! Archive of Ryukishi interviews Gold truth theories:"