2010-07-25, 00:18 | Link #14542 | |
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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But... yes, in essence. EDIT: Maybe I should learn how to be more succinct. 8) I aborted this post earlier because I couldn't explain it well, but essentially the Author Theory allows the Metaworld narrative to join the gameboard as part of the Umineko Episode. In essence this makes the Metaworld narrative part of the clues to the mystery that we're supposed to solve. It may not obey Knox rules though... but it still contributes... |
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2010-07-25, 01:01 | Link #14543 | |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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Of course, there are instances where characters do change (think when Keiichi remembers his crimes from Onikakushi-hen, Shannon and Kanon mentioning the Golden Land in EP4) but I honestly cannot explain these. Don't forget that the "players" in the Meta-World control the pieces for the most part. Bernkastel (or was it Lambdadelta? Don't remember who was responsible) intentionally made Battler more intelligent in EP5. But they also said that they cannot give pieces abilities that they already were not capable of using. I think that any development shown (except the aforementioned exceptions) is basically something hidden from us from the beginning. As a bad example, I'll use Kyrie: few of us suspected in EP1 that she could use a gun, but a fantasy scene in EP3 (whether or not this part should be taken at face value, I don't know) shows Kyrie using a gun to defeat Leviathan. Or with Rosa: it's not that Rosa gradually hates her daughter. No, we aren't shown too many scenes of child abuse in EP1, but by EP4 it becomes blatantly obvious that Rosa never truly loved her daughter. So no, I'd have to disagree about the development of the characters. The players (or Authors, depending on your theory) decide which traits they want to portray to the audience. As for Kylon's theory about fantasy scenes, I've noticed this too. I feel that things such as characters' personalities should be taken seriously in the fantasy scenes. We should definitely not cast them aside as useless because there are probably very important hints in them as well! I mean, I personally believe that the method of the deaths in the fantasy scenes are allegorical to the actual modus operandi of the crimes. Say, for instance, the goats and Siesta Sisters: they represent the bomb and the guns, as I see it. Do you think it's just a coincidence that in EP3, the Siestas shoot the victims in the mansion and then EVA-Beatrice asks the stakes to stake them? When the victims showed similar wounds? I think not. Also things like "Genji=Ronove" or "Kumasawa=Virgilia" should be considered to some extent. |
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2010-07-25, 01:28 | Link #14544 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Rosa never truly loved her daughter?
I'm not saying Rosa is a good mother, but if she didn't love her daughter she seriously wouldn't care about her going UUU and other things like that. Claiming Rosa doesn't love Maria based on arc 4 is like claiming Beatrice doesn't love Battler cause of arc 2. Rosa herself hates how she acts with her daughter. She feels terrible guilt at it, but can't help herself. She's very childish and trying to escape her ruined life's reality, but Maria is a constant reminder of it. On top of it Maria is half-insane daughter that in a few years will enter high school and still say Uuu-uuu and claims she wants to be a witch. If she was able to handle it, it might turn out differently, but she's unable to. Because of that she makes Maria the target of all her own faillures and often lash out at her. I think "Rosa is an incompetant mother" while we're first led to believe she's the most level headed of the sibblings is more true. However even Battler can't help himself but repeatedly smack Maria's head during arc 1 and 2. It is because it's blatantly obvious that Battler never liked his cousins? |
2010-07-25, 01:48 | Link #14545 | |||
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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That might've only worked because I already knew the answer, but I'd think if you apply it to other scenarios, you might be able to figure some of the hints hidden in the fantasy. I'll do it tomorrow, after I've gotten some sleep and providing we haven't moved onto something more interesting. |
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2010-07-25, 01:57 | Link #14546 | |
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Well, maybe. But I don't think that he doesn't like them. Battler himself never narrates a dislike of his cousins, and no one's ever narrated him showing a dislike for them, unless Erika is really Jessica, then... oh boy. More so, in Episode 6, he does centre on them during the game, but he plays them more out to be noble fools than anything else. I don't see anything wrong with Battler giving Maria a bop on the head when she gets out of control. I've got a little sister who acts in some ways similar to Maria (thankfully she's younger). Whenever she gets too annoying or I need to be alone to work on something, a light knock on the head works well. Rosa however, has to be a little more careful with corporal punishment. Though I agree; her actions are far from those of a mother who honestly hates her daughter. She just can't stand what Maria reminds her of, and there's unfortunately nothing else around to relieve her anger on. How she always apologizes to Maria afterwards shows this more than anything. I personally think Maria's aware of this, but uses her kindness to separate her mother's kind, loving side from her "Black Witch" side. |
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2010-07-25, 02:11 | Link #14547 |
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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A random bit of speculation I had. Being up late tends to mess with my philisophical concepts, you see.
I'm just wondering, can we really call using magic a lie? A lie is when you are not telling the truth, obviously. However, if you say that you are going to use magic, and everyone understands using magic means pulling some dextrous trick to make it appear like you did the impossible, then are you lying? I don't see how. However, it also work contrawise as well. Maria says that Beato performed magic for her several times in the past. To her, magic is doing the impossible. There's no other details in the definition. So as long as Beato performs the impossible, she's not lying to Maria either. This way, to everyone who's watching, the magic is no longer a lie. It's the truth, unless you decide to personally take it as a lie, like Erika. It's similar to her moves at the end of Episode 5. While Battler's truth was as valid as her, and he accepted both of them, she refused to see his truth as the truth, and tried to make it a lie. Or maybe my mind's just a little off from lack of sleep. |
2010-07-25, 02:33 | Link #14548 | ||
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That is someone thought they needed to pretend that Kinzo summoned some bunny girls and shot golden arrows that blew people's heads apart. Or some of the magic stuff in EP2. We can see this because of a few things: - the message bottles; someone actually bothered to write up this stuff. Even if they aren't exactly like EP1-2, they were described as full of witches, magic and fantasy. - Kyrie lying to Battler at the end of EP4. She told him the whole story with magic scenes included. There's probably more, but essentially if there's a few scenes that were served up to 1998 people... or to Battler, doesn't it stand to think that maybe all the fantasy scenes were constructed lies by groups of people? I think I need to re-read EP1-4 with this in mind... Quote:
For example, Ange ressurecting Sakutarou was an example of magic. It was when she learned how best to wield magic, I think, by using a Sakutarou copy to lie to Maria. We call it a lie, because we don't care about Maria, but to Maria it is magic. And Beatrice, because she also cares about Maria, decided not to argue about it anymore. (I think she didn't just choke on the red, I think she might have stopped arguing just to let Maria have her Sakutarou again.) This was in a Meta scene, of course... but this parallels with EP5. In EP5, Maria probably wasn't the one who put the candy under the cup. It was probably George, who we know has a source of magic knowledge. Maria might have really been thinking that she observed magic. But Erika knows it's a sleight of hand trick, but won't participate in the lie because she has no love for Maria or their situation. |
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2010-07-25, 02:47 | Link #14549 | ||
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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Come to think of it, am I the only one who feels that describes Erika's last moments? |
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2010-07-25, 03:01 | Link #14550 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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2010-07-25, 03:02 | Link #14551 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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2010-07-25, 03:09 | Link #14552 | ||
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Actually, I'm hoping to crystallize these and a few more theories first before I go back and re-read. And I probably need to do it fast since EP7 is coming up. Quote:
I'm thinking that magic requires something more though, an observer of that magic. And it's the operating on that observer by others which induces the magic. So for Beatrice, it's not that Maria has love and can 'see' the magic; it's that others have love for Maria and so they 'see' the magic. i.e. Keep their mouths shut. Like at the Candy table, if George or Maria did the sleight of hand trick... then Jessica kept her mouth shut too. Not that it's always the same person who keeps their mouth shut. I bet if you spread around the trickery then there's always some doubt created even if you did see one trick once. |
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2010-07-25, 03:29 | Link #14553 | ||
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Wait, I should respond to chronotrig's original message here:
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But of course, that was from a fantasy scene. Which is kind of the point... As for progression; yes, I remember Shion appearing to progress since Hanyu and Rika would only select (or perhaps Ryukishi would only bother showing us) the subset of kakera where she doesn't... um.. do her thing. But that was explained as a choice that people made and the fragments were determined on these differences of outcomes. A difference of character right from the start of each episode isn't based on choices nor outcomes. Quote:
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2010-07-25, 03:36 | Link #14554 |
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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Well, I'd argue about the definition of "a difference in character". If Battler confesses his undying love for Shannon shortly after landing on the island, odds are that she'd behave in a very different manner than usual. Or, if Erika was about to walk away from the first twilight crime scene in EP5 and she happened to think "wait, what if these corpses are fake", she might have turned back and checked them more closely. It might be necessary to show the causes for most major changes in attitude, but not necessarily all of them. And just because we aren't shown the cause doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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2010-07-25, 03:48 | Link #14555 |
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Sorry for the triple post... but.. I need to bring up one more question/theory.
Was it ever confirmed that the person who signed the message bottle letters as Ushiromiya Maria was the same person/handwriting who actually wrote the stories? I mean if we haven't actually been told that, that's just our assumption right? There's this question about why Beatrice would sign herself as Ushiromiya Maria. If you just think 'Beatrice' (i.e. probably Shannon) wrote the letters and then wanted people to find out the truth, then she should sign it as Beatrice, right? Just like in the letters delivered to the family? So.. maybe the message bottles were never supposed to leave the island. 'Beatrice' found them, then chucked them into the sea. "I don't know what these things are because I'm a ba☆ka, but someone please figure it out! So the determining factor is when Ange checks the handwriting in EP4. Did she check the contents of the message bottles or just the last line? Or did she get to check it at all? Does anyone remember off-hand? Otherwise, I'll go and check. I'm wondering about this because it seems to me the events of the night were somewhat predetermined; at least the fakery plan. So I'm just wondering if they were supposed to be released this way, by message bottle, or were they supposed to be never released at all. And then someone who didn't know the whole truth found them and chucked them out to sea. Someone who didn't have time to smuggle them off the island until very, very late? |
2010-07-25, 03:58 | Link #14556 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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As for the 1998 events in EP6, they were mostly the same, with the exception of Ange visiting Featherine. But, I cannot deny something suspicious about it.
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2010-07-25, 04:13 | Link #14557 | ||
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Join Date: May 2007
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We're not conducting a scientific investigation on Umineko, we're trying to solve a murder mystery. Ryukishi himself said that 'proof' isn't possible due to the "later Queen problem" in his Anti-Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy article. In short: EDIT: Sorry, the paragraph after may be more relevant. But now it's long, so I'll put it in spoiler quotes. Spoiler:
Technically speaking, I can punch holes in any theory by declaring that "We may not have yet been shown evidence X that completely denies your theory." And if Ryukishi DOES do that, that makes Umineko not solvable. And then we're back to that EP5 parody about how Umineko was just a big troll on the fanbase, etc. EDIT: Oops.. his article is here. http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/5724.html We've had this since.. what.. EP1 or 2? But makes for a better read for me now... 8) Last edited by Kylon99; 2010-07-25 at 04:53. |
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2010-07-25, 04:39 | Link #14558 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Sometimes I don't get you. What's the use of thinking the mastermind has outrageous influence and ability to manipulate people if your not going to use that to explain the outrageous things that people happen to do? In short: YOU DARE doubt the magnificent charismatic awesomeness of UMINEKO's mastermind!? Face the wrath of a 1000 years of pecking seagulls, magical Gohda chefs, and flying stakes!! *ahaha.wav*
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2010-07-25, 04:44 | Link #14559 |
Tortured Pet
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In "Her" crime scenes
Age: 33
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With that Quote, it could also work along with Higurashi and its connections with Umineko. I'm sorry for bringing back the old topic but this goes to show how Higurashi is something that can be revised. I mean to say how "Bern" or shall I say Rika when through what Battler went through...
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2010-07-25, 07:18 | Link #14560 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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It went like that. -Ootsuki read the original messages and supposedly studied them for a while. -Ange shows to Ootsuki the part in Maria's diary that was written by Beatrice. -Ootsuki's reaction is immediate, he wants to know where Ange got that diary, he says he needs time to study it to be sure and so one. -Ange thought that the reaction alone was a confirmation. She probably thought that Ootsuki didn't want to give an answer he could already give because he wanted to study the diary a bit more for his personal reasons. Considering that Ootsuki even said that he didn't want the money (and that was a big load of money) he just wanted to look a diary a bit more, this is quite probable.
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