(L+CR) Charlotte

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by silvercover

hell the big problem was how could they be that small and inexperienced... along with yuu. like it was hard to take that episode seriously, when both groups were really incompetent. both of them also just fucked up themselves, leading to a "tragic" outcome. from their group, they could have had like other people inside the factory, ready with tranquilizers, or just have their big guy hidden close by to knock out yuu after he couldnt time travel. for a self proclaimed "terrorist" group that planned this for years, they're seriously understaffed and outgunned.

They may well be understaffed and outgunned. I'm not sure I'd call that a competency issue, though. I suppose you could argue they tried to bite off more than they could chew, but I can understand why they'd take a risk on capturing a power-user of Yuu's caliber. At least the knife-wielding mouth beam-shooting girl seemed pretty well-trained and personally competent.

then from yuu's side, couldnt they have at least gathered maybe some other ability users of their own that could help?

Well, Yuu was told to come alone, IIRC. Yuu's side doesn't know exactly what they're up against, numbers/intelligence-wise. Maybe the kidnappers/terrorists have cameras floating around, and would have somebody killed if those cameras catch somebody else approaching near Yuu.


That being said, Maeda probably could have been more creative here, not just for the sake of believablity, but also to make the conflict more entertaining in a basic sense. So I get your dissatisfaction. Maybe they should have had speedbro be used the way you suggested, and maybe have him take out those tranq-guys you suggested the antagonists have, but then come up just short of saving Yuu from knife-wielding mouth-beam girl. It's not hard for me to imagine that being a very exciting scene.

Meada isn't particularly good at writing complex superpowered conflict. He did Ok with the "power user of the day" episodes, but he struggles some when it gets more complex than that. Maybe he should try his hand at something different next time. Or read more/better superhero comic books for inspiration.

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What if a magic wand was discovered by a new character in a magical girl show that already had active magical girls? Would that be such a big deal?

Personally, I don't think so.

So Charlotte introduces new superpowered threats in a world that had superpowered characters in it to begin with. The only difference this time is that they're being controlled by non-superpowered adult humans. The basic idea here is hardly far-fetched, and it doesn't much change the core story of Charlotte. Unlike, say, inserting literal magic in the last few episodes of a show that never seemed to have any literal magic in it before.

That's a very fair point, and you did an great job adjusting that example to fit Charlotte's plot.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I have to strongly disagree on this point.

Completely unprecedented miracles or shocking turns of event often make for highly popular stories. Many people tend to love them, in my experience.

Consider urban myths. Also consider the tendency that people have to strongly exaggerate real life accomplishments and events for added effect. Like the person who exaggerates the size of the fish he caught, or how difficult a struggle he had in catching it.

They are great news stories. A man gets promoted to CEO, marries the woman he loves, then suddenly dies in his sleep from a stroke on the same night. Another man is caught in poverty, selling his house and feeding his family with scraps, then he finds a suitcase full of money or wins the lottery. That's sensational as hell, people love reading news stories like these and for good reason. But you don't see that as often in fiction near the end of a story, because although it can work (I'm not strictly opposed to it), it can easily be seen as a cop-out.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

After Yuu successfully saved Ayumi, things felt maybe a bit too good to be true. Especially given how many episodes were still left. Considering that, it seemed likely to me that we'd get at least one more big twist, or at least one more major challenge to the protagonists.

I was expecting something bad to happen, and I assume most people watching this show were. I just wasn't expecting something as unpleasant as what we got, so that goes on to the point I made in my previous post.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I certainly respect this, and I get where you're coming from, but I want to present a different way of looking at things. Just to maybe help you see how someone of a different opinion or take might perceive this.

Over time, I've certainly noticed the "anime" way of doing things, in multiple areas. This definitely includes how anime typically does sad or despairing story-arcs. It still has some effect on me, when well-done, but I have noticed diminishing returns here. I felt this with the sadder sections of Little Busters! - They didn't effect me quite as strongly as Clannad or Kanon's sadder sections, because I've seen this sort of narrative play out this way before. I'm not entirely desensitized to it, but I have grown slightly more numb to it.

So I honestly kind of like Charlotte's less foreshadowing approach when it comes to its final quarter. Because it's different. It captures a different sort of trauma or negative event that's no less real than the sort of trauma/negative event that we typically see in anime.

Anime often features that slow decline or obvious inevitable crash. Like a sickness slowly eating away. Like a big test coming up that you dread facing because you expect you won't handle it well.

But there's also the shocking mugging. The crime event that hits you from out of nowhere. Or the relationship that's going great until you're startled to find that your significant other has been holding back disappointment/dissatisfaction for a long time and suddenly dumps you, much to a rage-inducing shock. That story is no less a part of the human condition than sickness or dread, really.

So a part of me is glad to see Charlotte tackle this for a change, even if it was unintentional. Just something to consider.

That's an interesting way of putting it. I can't agree with your perspective (Little Busters felt fresh to me even after experiencing 4 Key titles), but I now see why such a development was good and entertaining for you.

Perhaps the different, shocking factor of episode 11 was indeed Maeda trying to venture beyond his usual horizons of "sad girls in snow" or "sad boys playing baseball" storytelling.

In fact, despite many criticisms of it being "the same old Key shit," quite a few of Charlotte's elements seem to be playing against type. Nao's personality is nothing like Maeda's girls in previous stories, especially for a main girl. Ayumi's sickness made many watchers predict that she'd die in the typical "KeyAIDS" incurable disease fashion, but instead she recovered and died suddenly from something else. And the entire setting is devoid of the usual vague magical stuff that Key is famous for, most supernatural powers are very specific and limited and the source of the magic isn't people's feelings or a town's spirit, it's simply comet dust and that's it. I think Maeda definitely overstretched himself with the hamfisted way he handled the few action scenes, but at least Charlotte isn't *that* heavily recycled from his earlier writing.

[Marcus H.]

I don't know much about Maeda's other works in full detail, but I actually didn't mind Maeda's tropes in Angel Beats and Little Busters. I enjoyed Kyousuke's search for the "baseball team of his dreams", and there's no low point in Yurippe's attempts to survive in the afterlife and to eliminate God's greatest underling in Kanade.

To me, Maeda didn't have to throw away those cliches or write against his own style. He just has to make a story flow better, even if it's a small story or something big.

There's probably an alternate timeline where I enjoyed every single episode of Charlotte, but I think it's also a timeline where Maeda is given a canvas worth two cours. For the meantime, Maeda should consider that not every single idea in his head would fit on a one-cour anime. It would take time to adapt to that mindset, but hell, Urobuchi has crafted a bestseller like Madoka, and Fumiaki Maruto is also making great progress with Saekano and Classroom Crisis. He'll be fine.

[ronelm2000]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

There's probably an alternate timeline where I enjoyed every single episode of Charlotte, but I think it's also a timeline where Maeda is given a canvas worth two cours. For the meantime, Maeda should consider that not every single idea in his head would fit on a one-cour anime. It would take time to adapt to that mindset, but hell, Urobuchi has crafted a bestseller like Madoka, and Fumiaki Maruto is also making great progress with Saekano and Classroom Crisis. He'll be fine.

Yeah, pretty much this, but honestly, I don't think Jun Maeda is good with 1cour. If anything Charlotte pretty much concludes this for me. Some people are good with 1cour, others not at all. Let's just accept that.

Also, F/Z is 2cour. :3

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I truly don't get why this is such a big deal to some viewers. Why is it such a big deal that the terrorists only show up in the final quarter of the anime? I could maybe see the criticism of these characters if they didn't seem to fit as believable challenges to our protagonists, but the idea of there being various competing factions looking to exploit superpowered people in a world with thousands of superpower users makes all the sense in the world to me. It also makes sense to me that Yuu's brother might not focus enough on this terrorist faction when he understandably feels that he has more pressing and immediate concerns with his nation's government/scientists. So really, what's the issue here?

I think the problem is that viewers, and Nao, were too caught up with "scientists" as a threat to recognize they were part of a larger category: organizations who want to control the ESPers. Really, it's all the same thing, but Nao called them "scientists", because Shun did, because that's what he came across in the original timeline. (Heck, even Shun's syndicate fits that description.)

For that matter, were the "terrorists" really that? We know they're part of a foreign organization that controls ESPers, and certainly don't balk at committing crimes, but they could be anything. Including some state funded.

[silvercover]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

They may well be understaffed and outgunned. I'm not sure I'd call that a competency issue, though. I suppose you could argue they tried to bite off more than they could chew, but I can understand why they'd take a risk on capturing a power-user of Yuu's caliber. At least the knife-wielding mouth beam-shooting girl seemed pretty well-trained and personally competent.

we're talking about a group that had a firm grip on shun's group for SEVERAL YEARS, that apparently also held a whole family hostage.

how could they be this understaffed and be outgunned? especially if they're dealing with one of the most powerful user. you'd expect them to have more than just a loli with a mouthflashlight and a big guy.

they either had more, but were stupid enough to leave their other men holding the family hostage, or that was just a bluff and this is all they've got, which still makes them stupid and unrealistic how they're pulling this thing off.

Well, Yuu was told to come alone, IIRC. Yuu's side doesn't know exactly what they're up against, numbers/intelligence-wise. Maybe the kidnappers/terrorists have cameras floating around, and would have somebody killed if those cameras catch somebody else approaching near Yuu.

well then thats when timetravel becomes relevant.
what shun's group should have done is first test out all of their threats, and just timetravel yuu if things go wrong. like, wasnt that the point of having yuu be the one there, like instead of them just trying to keep him safe while shun's group attempts to save them.

That being said, Maeda probably could have been more creative here, not just for the sake of believablity, but also to make the conflict more entertaining in a basic sense. So I get your dissatisfaction. Maybe they should have had speedbro be used the way you suggested, and maybe have him take out those tranq-guys you suggested the antagonists have, but then come up just short of saving Yuu from knife-wielding mouth-beam girl. It's not hard for me to imagine that being a very exciting scene.

Meada isn't particularly good at writing complex superpowered conflict. He did Ok with the "power user of the day" episodes, but he struggles some when it gets more complex than that. Maybe he should try his hand at something different next time. Or read more/better superhero comic books for inspiration.

angel beats was pretty alright with action and fighting sequence, how the hell could they not replicate that there?

how hard is it for them to just have mooks trying to shoot down yuu with him dodging those through luck/experience with fighting punks and then he uses telekinesis to knock them out, then just do the whole collapse scenario?
instead what we got was yuu stupidly aiming at guys who were no threat while a loli kept on stabbing his side til he used collapse anyway.

[Arya]

The terrorist episode's problem is not a single one IMHO, but the product of different issues. As already said this group supposedly worked on it for a long time, several years as said, keeping an entire family as hostage.
That hints they are a deeply-rooted group, and extended enough to afford to keep steadily their business abroad. Or so is what it looked like to me. (given we had not previous info about them, so it's left to the viewer).

This is also a group that is very well-versed into torture, that again it increases their legitimacy in being broad as they seem.
So, all considered, the way they got defeated so easily felt quite far-fetched.

If that wasn't enough they lasted one episode without any foreshadowing nor further consequences. If one somehow can let it go about the foreshadowing, sure cannot about the consequences, unless the group we are talking about wasn't that big to begin with. But that's somehow goes against the way they were set up.
Last, Nao fanservice for the sake of it.

All these issues together made the episode a complete mess to me. It felt like they inserted this mini-arc randomly.
And why I should not? When you don't foreshadow it nor make it lasts more than an episode, it sounds and feels like laziness, that alone.
If the coherency of said group as a crime syndicate gets broken for plot reasons it also adds bad writing to it.
The fact they portrayed the torture to such an extent, when they had been quite loose on everything else, suggests that it all was meant to reach this point exclusively.

If in that violent context you adds useless fanservice, that's also poor taste.

And I'm not touching the very unpleasant taste given by the actual content of the episode. That can be somehow subjective.
Personally I had no problem with the last episode of Tokyo Ghoul S1. And FWIW my threshold in this field is Martyrs, the movie.
In this regard in the end this episode, due to how badly it was put together, resulted unwillingly more unpleasant than expected I suppose.
The addiction of an half naked Nao after such a torture sure didn't help, since triggered the wrong thoughts in the viewer mind. Escalating it.

If picked individually they are not a big deal probably, but finding them all together in the same episode made it said episode a complete mess in my opinion!

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Personally, I'll remove the effing terrorists altogether because the scientists are enough of a threat themselves already. I do agree that a one cour where a lot of fat is trimmed down might work. Precedents showed us that, in a longer series, one character arc might be dragged on longer than necessary. *cough*MakotoArc*cough*FuukoArc*cough*

This what kept running through mind in last couple episodes. Their were perfectly serviceable with ties to all primary and secondary characters (outside like Sala) whic was somewhat established. IIRC the organization wasn't gone according to Nao either which makes their exclusion even more baffling. :/

[Haak]

Oh wow, I finally got round to watching the final episode and it truly was as shit as everyone said it was going to be. The funny thing was that I genuinely enjoyed the episode when Yuu travels back in time to save Ayumi and enjoyed all the preceding episodes. But after that it went straight down hill into stupidity with the sudden terrorist angle and purging the world finale.

Originally Posted by Haak

It looks like the cliffhanger at the end of episode 6 has indicated a shift into full gear so it’ll be interesting to see where that goes. Will it win the race or will it crash and burn spectacularly?

It crashed hard and spectacularly.

[Draco Spirit]

Having a sudden shift in a story isn't a bad thing, in fact it can be a really good thing if handled well, but you can't keep doing it and you've got to link the pre shifted and post shift setting in a way that effective and relevant.

A common example of this sort of trick is to start with a comic first half and then go in with a more drama centric second half. The first half helps draw the viewers in and makes them like the characters, while the second half uses that emotion to smash you with the feels (hello Stein:Gate and Toredora).

However you can't keep doing it... and things must stick. Additionally you must leave some sort of clues in the first part... even if they only make sense in the second.

For example lets say you wanted to a Slice of Life show that suddenly turns into a Magical Girl story after episode 9 of 12 episode show. You could focus on the importance of friendship and dealing with your own personal demons in the first part.... then have those personal demons turn into literal demons for the final part as the Magical Girl hero finishes of her character development arc in badarse battle-scenes with good dialogue thanks to the (magical) strength that comes from her bonds with her friends.

You could leave innocent hints in the Slice of Life part by having the characters comments on the owner of the Cosplay cafe they frequently visit looking like a young girl despite being over 30 (because she's a Magical Girl dur!)and the MC frequently having Magical Girl fantasies. You know, the sort of things the viewers will laugh off when they encounter them, but go "oh crap it was staring me in the face the whole time!" after episode 9.

And here's were we get to Charlotte issues.... it has too many twists that are rapidly undone, unforeshadowed and never worked with ever again. For example after the time travelling... what part in the narrative does the little sister play? Or for bigger example what the point of building up this international gang with a huge long running plot... if they last one episode and aren't even faintly present in the early story?

[Hanabira.Kage]

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[tsunade666]

huh? Nao had a plot armor? how? did she even go into an impossible trial that she just made through by plot alone? maybe Yuu but Nao?

U mad?

[Triple_R]

@Hanabira.Kage - Putting aside the point being made, that's really good photoshop work. Impressively clean and it involves three different anime shows, so it's at least moderately complex. I hope you continue to do photoshop work in the future. A shame such hard work and/or talent is being used to support a rather silly point in this particular instance, however.

I could maybe see the "Yuu = Gary Stu" criticism, though even that would be stretching it some since Yuu did have some notable low-points and some serious losses. But putting this criticism on Nao...

To the best of my knowledge, Nao was only put in a death-defying situation once, and ended up getting rescued by Yuu, more or less. This is just fairly standard plot shielding for a major protagonist, really. Nao also did get roughly bullied that one time by some of her female classmates.

[silvercover]

and though while I consider charlotte a failure, nao's not one of them. well, she's grating a bit, but I like her compared to the rest of the cast. speedbro would have been likable, but just become a useless secondary character who's pretty much there to just be a fanboy. yusa and misa were well, pretty irrelevant, and yusa could have been written off completely and just leave misa without changing much.

a consistent character in her portrayal, nao remained mostly distant and professional with her job. she's shown to be crass and a bit violent, but not in a tsundere manner at least where she'll hit you if you embarrass her, she'll only hit you if you do something pretty stupid. the only fault id find is the part when she just follows yuu and only steps in once he's trying out drugs.
best part I like is how nao didnt fall for yuu easily, or never really fell for him fully except before he time leaped and the ending one. like honestly, nao didnt have a good reason to like yuu until after he helped her brother recover, after that it was fine. then you can see after he time leaped and didnt help her brother, she really looked shocked and disgusted. now I still dont really agree with her just falling for him in the final ep as they didnt have the moments to get close, but I could just imagine that nao was really grateful and indebted to yuu that she's just fulfilling her promise and not cause she really liked yuu the way yuu liked nao.

[Hanabira.Kage]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

@Hanabira.Kage - Putting aside the point being made, that's really good photoshop work. Impressively clean and it involves three different anime shows, so it's at least moderately complex. I hope you continue to do photoshop work in the future. A shame such hard work and/or talent is being used to support a rather silly point in this particular instance, however.

I could maybe see the "Yuu = Gary Stu" criticism, though even that would be stretching it some since Yuu did have some notable low-points and some serious losses. But putting this criticism on Nao...

To the best of my knowledge, Nao was only put in a death-defying situation once, and ended up getting rescued by Yuu, more or less. This is just fairly standard plot shielding for a major protagonist, really. Nao also did get roughly bullied that one time by some of her female classmates.

Ep.1 - Ep.2 - Ep.3 - Ep.4 - Ep.5 - Ep.7 - Ep.12

plot convenience/Jesus's plot armor
failures=0
Self-Healing 100%
Physical Damage 0%



criticize ''male character'', would be okay? .
''waifu'' no?
male characters and ''waifu'' are treated unequally.

[Dr. Casey]

She's not really a Mary Sue at all... she's most active and prominent during the first five episodes of the series where things are still fun and lighthearted before taking a more passive supportive role whenever things get serious and more action-based, so there's not many accomplishments to her name, and she's not really liked by anyone outside the main cast. I don't see any wish-fulfillment element to her character, she's a largely disliked and isolated girl with a sad background and a broken family that didn't really have any bright spots in her life before meeting Yuu. If anyone wears plot armor it would be Yuu, who survived dozens or hundreds of battles against large mobs of people despite being sleep-deprived and extremely exhausted (not meant as criticism really, since I enjoyed the last episode and understand that Yuu's survival was because of his constantly growing arsenal of abilities, but he still overcomes much, much greater odds than Nao or anyone else in the series).

[Psyco Diver]

I said this in another thread but Jun Maeda is quickly turning into the M. Night Shyamalan of romantic dramas and like his movies I don't think I will watch anything new with Jun's name on it until the series completes and I'm sure I won't be wasting my time on it

[EroKing]

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by Hanabira.Kage

criticize ''male character'', would be okay? .
''waifu'' no?
male characters and ''waifu'' are treated unequally.

criticizing a female character is fine but of all the character to be criticized because of failure, your pointing it at Nao?

I would be okay if you used Miyuki and Asuna from the pictures you used but Nao is hardly perfect at all.

She has lots of problems that she decided to ignore or tackled head on. She kept a strong facade even with all the things she went through. She's not perfect.

Plot armor? yuu has those, heck, I was surprised the guy didn't get himself killed with the 5 second weakness of his ability. That 5 second is a huge blind spot and no one bothered to exploit it?

self healing damage? blame the production for inconsistency in their animation but her character stay the same. From beginning till the end. She's not tsundere annoying character but a steadfast cunning and strong girl.

She take responsibility for her failings. Like staying with Emo Yuu for a month just to keep him alive.

She take cares of his brother even though she's probably all alone now.

I don't think that they will come back to her mother that sold them off for money.

Are you a troll or something?

[silvercover]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

Are you a troll or something?

considering that the guy's account is brand new, barely has any other posts, and flooded my profile with those pics, yeah probably.

he's likely from /a/, as I recognize some of those comparison images being posted there.