[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

well in Ep5 we know that the stakes aren't weapons at all. They are paperweights! And they are even cheap and fake reproductions. Is it really possible to use them as weapons? I guess that being paperweights you can use them as bludgeoning weapons, but piercing weapons? Why? How?

Even in the novel Nanjo was quite skeptical about it. They don't even have a big enough handle to allow the necessary grip to break into someone's skull. And who would be strong enough?

Another kind of strange weapon was used and the stakes were merely put in place. That seems the most logic assumption. Also the anime showing how easily that stake dropped from Shannon's skull seems to support this theory.

Yet a fire weapon doesn't seem plausible. In the real world they are by far less accurate than movies and anime make you think. Hitting a precise spot? Good luck with that. The only way that could have been done is by close range. However in that case Nanjo should have noticed skin burnings.

[Kamar]

It wouldn't be THAT farfetched for someone to manage to hit the general area stated for the twilights, especially at the distances they'd be at indoors/with the element of surprise.

Anime and movies may exaggerate the accuracy with which firearms are used, but most guns will have pretty damn high accuracy at the kind of ranges we're talking about here >_>

Unless you meant something other than guns by "fire weapon", then ignore this. <_<


Edit: Just for reference; I can consistently hit an area the size of a paper plate firing from the hip with a pistol...at 20 yards. If I can manage that IRL, I can't possibly see how characters in a work of fiction would have trouble hitting someone in the thigh or whatever at will, at indoor ranges.

[Jan-Poo]

A moving target is not the same thing.
There is a reason why policemen are instructed to always aim for the body. You need to consider that so far the holes were perfectly in place, and all in frontal zones. Which means you would expect the victim to startle before being shot. Hitting the center of the forehead is probably the hardest thing, since people tend to cower when they see a gun pointed at them.

[Kamar]

I understand your point, I'm just saying that its the kind of stretch that is normal for anime and the like; it's probably best for our purposes to consider improbable shooting skills par for the course in Umineko.

Assuming a gun is what is being used, of course.

[Jan-Poo]

Well I guess it can't be ruled out ^^;
But I still find it strange, plus there's the problem with the fact no one heard any gunshot. Also there was no mention of any bullet exit. Not like this is impossible. But for the killer it would have been a problem if the bullet made an exit hole.

[Kamar]

Hmm...I just thought of something. Could the 'stakings' be fake? Am I mistaken in saying we only have Nanjo's word that they are actually penetrating the bodies, and don't have collapsable tips or something?

[Jan-Poo]

That's something I often think. However it is difficult to claim such a thing if you look at the anime. Some of those stakes seems to be pretty well stuck in the victim's body, and in some cases you clearly see the wounds, after the stakes are removed or fall down.

If this is a trick, it's of a very high level, on par with David Copperfield's tricks.

[LyricalAura]

Even though they're not designed to be weapons, Battler inspected them closely at the end of Episode 4, and they are sharp enough to stab someone with. That doesn't help with the twilights that require jamming them through bone, but it'd be perfectly reasonable to stab Jessica in the back with one, for instance.

[Renall]

It's never once been stated (either in red or speculated upon by the characters on the board) that the stakes actually killed the victims. If you find a corpse and the corpse has a sharp stake in it, obviously you might assume that, but that doesn't necessitate it. It was speculated back in ep3 that someone might be shooting people with a gun and then sticking in the stake to hide the bullet wound. It could well be that the stakes are unsuitable weapons, but perfectly serviceable in widening and worsening a wound that already exists.

As to how they could be shooting people without making noise, you can go back to Battler's theory of a stake-launching gun or something similar, like a crossbow or speargun or pressure-based weapon. These would make far less noise than a firearm. Or you could argue there's a silenced gun present on the island (a silenced handgun would make sense, certainly). The problem is, we've never seen any of these weapons (or the "shotgun or magnum" that Battler theorizes in ep4). We have seen the Winchesters, but as far as we know the wounds they cause are inconsistent with many of the deaths in many of the games. So either there's something else out there, or...

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Renall

It's never once been stated (either in red or speculated upon by the characters on the board) that the stakes actually killed the victims. If you find a corpse and the corpse has a sharp stake in it, obviously you might assume that, but that doesn't necessitate it. It was speculated back in ep3 that someone might be shooting people with a gun and then sticking in the stake to hide the bullet wound. It could well be that the stakes are unsuitable weapons, but perfectly serviceable in widening and worsening a wound that already exists.

As to how they could be shooting people without making noise, you can go back to Battler's theory of a stake-launching gun or something similar, like a crossbow or speargun or pressure-based weapon. These would make far less noise than a firearm. Or you could argue there's a silenced gun present on the island (a silenced handgun would make sense, certainly). The problem is, we've never seen any of these weapons (or the "shotgun or magnum" that Battler theorizes in ep4). We have seen the Winchesters, but as far as we know the wounds they cause are inconsistent with many of the deaths in many of the games. So either there's something else out there, or...

What about assault rifles? We do have 556...

[Ithekro]

That would imply a military operation going on.

[Jan-Poo]

Well there wouldn't be any real surprise if hidden somewhere in Rokkenjima there are heavy weapons meant for military. After all Kinzo had close connection with the U.S. army, and being so rich he can certainly afford to get those weapons from the black market if he wants.

Actually I always suspected that Rokkenjima was once the site of a secret military base, and that the gold was brought there by a refugee from the the second World War. Maybe an higher up of the nazi German stole a huge amount of gold from the state reserve and fled to Japan, seeing as how everything was falling apart.
Too bad Japan capitulated shortly after, and maybe that's why the gold was hidden in a desert island.

[Antera Caramichael]

By the way, do we know when Kinzo moved to Rokkenjimma?
Maybe the pact with the witch was in real a contract with some force of the Second WW (MGS inside...). For example we don't know what his business was. He could have been one of the great weapon producer, and the hidden gold was a reward for his great involvment, or maybe he followed the way of the war and turned to the American side. The craziest theory would be that he created Little Boy and the gold was for his silence xD

[Ithekro]

Well if he got the gold in the early 1950s, it would suggest that he either found it (or was pointed in the correct direction by Beatrice), or is was given to him via something that happened with the Korean War. Japan was still occupied by US and allied forces, plus the United Nations was using Japan as a staging ground for operations against North Korea. With Kinzo's heavy western influence, one would think he'd have been helping US run operations or supporting the industrical rebuilding of Japan during this time (thus getting rich). Though it might paint his family in a poor light if he was in support of US/western powers during the Second World War (and thus be considered a collaborator or a traitor to Japan). However his family lost "everything" in 1923 doing that huge earthquake. Thus he would have had to spead the next 30 years rebuilding to around the time he supposedly got the gold from Beatrice.


Or am I mixing up the years here?

[Renall]

We don't know when he got the gold, but I think it was before the Korean War. Remember that Kinzo kept the gold; he used it as collateral to get loans for his business ventures. He never spent it or sold it. So his business was presumably stuff related to the Allies, and that business carried through into the 50s. But the gold was what he needed to get started, so he must have met his Beatrice and gotten the gold before that time.

As to where it came from... well, who knows? The idea that it was displaced in WW2 makes sense.

I doubt there are military-grade firearms on the island. There could be, but I think it's more plausible that someone (Nanjo?) snuck in a silenced handgun, or that somebody has a shotgun. Or that there's a more esoteric weapon on hand, like a pressure-based projectile gun or crossbow.

[Jan-Poo]

I think that by the time the Korean War started he already had the gold.
With the gold he could get enough fundings from the banks and that's how he made a huge fortune. His connection with the U.S. Army alone wouldn't have been enough if he didn't have a big a mount of cash to invest.

Well of course, he was already rich, but after the Korean war he gained ten times or even more that wealth.

It must be considered that:

1) Kinzo claims that he met Beatrice shortly after the war
2) Kawabata begun transporting goods to the Kuwadorian in the year 1948 Ca. (50 years before from 1998)
3) The Korean war started in 1950
4) Kinzo bought Rokkenjima after the Korean war. Before that he wasn't rich enough to buy a whole island
5) In 1952 the construction of the Rokkenjima Mansion was completed.
6) Genji claims that by that time (1952) Beatrice was already dead
7) Around 1956 (30 years before from 1986) Kinzo moved his family to Rokkenjima.
8) Practically at the very same time, both the rumors of Kinzo having a secret lover hidden in the island, and the legend of the witch of the forest, started spreading among the servants.

[Antera Caramichael]

Business is about trust, you lend money if you are sure to be paid back. Having 10 Billion Yen helps .

Concerning the weapons. Don't you think the underground corridor looks like the inside of a Bunker? I don't have the Vn picture but I always thought that it was very like:

Spoiler for Size:

This is a picture of the inside of Maginot Line (The great defense line of the French build in order to prevent a german attack, which leads to the Phoney War)
Railway, doors, and light's in the upper corner sides, it is pretty similar to the description we are given, isn't it?

[Ithekro]

Hmmm...

Was Rosa born before they moved to the island?

The older three children were born before that...but do we have a relatively clear picture of the years they were born?

How old was Kinzo in 1984? We know he became the head in 1923, but then what did he do to reclaim the family wealth? Was it Beatrice? If it was, why was it so long after he became the head of the family? Was the gold from Beatrice's will? Meaning he got the gold after her death around 1950?

Krauss and Eva are in there 40s or 50s by 1986..So they had to have been born either during or before the Second World War. Rudolf could have been born shortly after the Second World War, but before the Korean War. Rosa is probably not even 30 yet, or just barely in her 30s. So she should have been born after the Korean War.

Why so much time between children? And then we assume Kinzo is around Battler's age when he becomes the next head, but yet he doesn't start having children until the late 1930s and early 1940s and into the 1950s. (and if some people's theories are correct, the 1960s up to 1970.)

[Marion]

Well let's consider dates. We know:

1) George is 23 in 1986, therefore he was born in 1963
2) Jessica and Battler were both born in 1968
3) There's also the 19th person and Natsuhi's son, born in 1966-67 and died at the age of around one I believe
4) We know Natsuhi took 12 years to get pregnant. 1968 - 12 is 1956. Natsuhi and Krauss, if they attempted to start having children as soon as they were married (which I'm sure they did) then they would have been married around that time.
5) We also know that Eva and Krauss are relatively close in age (probably a year or so apart), while Rudolf was probably born a good few years after them and Rosa at least a decade after Rudolf.
6) If Rosa was around middle school in 1968 then she was probably born a couple years before Krauss and Natsuhi married in the coming of the mid-50's.
7) Hideyoshi's family died in the war, so he's probably around Krauss's age.
8) Natsuhi is 3 years younger than Eva

So gauging at this we know the adults ages probably go something like this.

Youngest to Oldest
Rosa < Kyrie < Rudolf < Natsuhi < Eva < Hideyoshi < Krauss
Mid 30's < Early 40's < Late 40's < Early 50's < Mid 50s < Mid 50's < Mid 50's.

Hideyoshi and Kyrie's dates are more or less plugged in base on the fact that usually at that time period it was more common for men to be the older of the couple.

[momobunny]

Kind of funny that way... because to Rosa, it's like Natsuhi was a part of the family her whole life (give or take a couple of years, but it's not like she's likely to remember them). Wow... the age differences between them are pretty large.