Game of Thrones

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Eh, it seems kinda unfair how Oberyn lost, even though it makes sense in a realistic setting. Humans have adrenaline, so even if they're ran through with a spear and hamstrung, they can still keep fighting for a while. But in most fight scenes, people instantly collapse and become unable to retaliate when they receive a mortal blow. If they want to make the show all gritty and real, why not abandon that trope entirely? Make all those villains work a little harder for their kills.

The Mountain is a huge guy wearing ALLOT of plate with padding underneath. What constitutes a mortal blow against him is greatly in excess to what constitutes a mortal blow for regular soldiers, especially ones who don't have the benefit of truly heavy plate. That jumping Jab Oberyn did at the end there probably would have completely run through a normal sized enemy just in chainmail. Against a meat beast like Gregor clad in heavier armor? It's a serious injury, but NOT a mortal blow.

I mean, look at this.

Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku

Stabbing 3-5 inches into Gregor's body is NOT the same thing as stabbing 3-5 inches into a normal sized person. There's more muscle that has to be cut up to properly weaken him, and more tissue covering the vital organs. This is especially compounded when Gregor has plate and leather padding to further cover his body. Inflicting mortal body blows on the guy is extremely difficult.


Also. There are allot of instances in the show where even lightly armored soldiers required either strikes to the head, multiple body strikes, or powerful piercing moves to take down.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/gZy5pVx_Nm4

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YouTube

https://youtu.be/ypFUgME9Szk

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If so much effort needs to be put into killing even these lightly armored guys, it shouldn't be surprising that what Oberyn did against the much larger and more armored gregor weren't proper mortal blows.


Oberyn's problem is that he DIDN'T deliver any fatal blows. He didn't follow up with knocking the mountain down by immediately stabbing through his armor joints or going for his face. He left him injured...which is INCREDIBLY risky when fighting an opponent whose this much stronger than you.

[JKL]

Originally Posted by Artful_Dodger

But its like hey, we have this awesome swordsman Jaime who's one of the best in the realm, we'll show you 1 brief sword fight and cut off his hand! Oh we have another elite fighter named Oberyn with ridiculous skills, we'll show you 1 brief fight and kill him off! wth?

Even the legendary heroes in myth, with divine backgrounds no less, met sudden tragic ends.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Oberyn's problem is that he DIDN'T deliver any fatal blows. He didn't follow up with knocking the mountain down by immediately stabbing through his armor joints or going for his face. He left him injured...which is INCREDIBLY risky when fighting an opponent whose this much stronger than you.

Yeah, agreed, he was being cocky. And be it the mountain or whatever, usually the show does a good job of demonstrating combat. A thrust in the chest is almost never an "insta-kill". If they're really out to kill people, they usually do it properly by taking out the head, or knocking the guy down and hacking him to pieces. I hope they keep consistent with this, because this show really benefits from realism. No magic bullets or lightsabers.

Oh, this is a video that makes my point better than I ever could.

[Guardian Enzo]

He was being cocky, but I think the larger point is that he wanted to get The Mountain to call out Tywin Lannister before he died, so a quick kill was never what he was after. Plus, he was swigging the wine pretty good before the duel started and that's not going to make you any more cautious.

[killer3000ad]

YouTube

https://youtu.be/vob2_MSpXQc

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I can imagine this becoming a regular thing like the Attack on Titan reaction vids.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Yeah, agreed, he was being cocky. And be it the mountain or whatever, usually the show does a good job of demonstrating combat. A thrust in the chest is almost never an "insta-kill". If they're really out to kill people, they usually do it properly by taking out the head, or knocking the guy down and hacking him to pieces. I hope they keep consistent with this, because this show really benefits from realism. No magic bullets or lightsabers.

Oh, this is a video that makes my point better than I ever could.

I'd say that the show has gotten pretty good about this. Back in season 1 you did sorta frequently see guys going down quickly to body slashes, but that seemed to become less frequent as the seasons dragged on. Nearly all the kills we've had since then have been head wounds, or really hacking someone to pieces...or if single body strikes, at least catastrophic enough looking to be believably fatal.

I'd say the giant and heavily armored Gregor being able to pull this off wasn't particularly hax in comparison to what we've seen in the series so far. The Mountain WAS hypothetically injured enough to not have the strength to do nothing but lay on the ground helpless....but his wounds were also not quite lethal enough to guarantee that he'd be unable to pull off what he did with a bit of berserker adrenaline.


Oberyn's problem was that something like this (being able to avenge his sisters murder, and implicate Tywin as being involved in it) was something he'd dreamed off a bit too long, and it got him a bit too wound up when it seemed like he'd already won.

Originally Posted by killer3000ad

YouTube

https://youtu.be/vob2_MSpXQc

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I can imagine this becoming a regular thing like the Attack on Titan reaction vids.

Oh god...that reaction when Oberyn knocks mountain down and it looks like he's won.

[ChainLegacy]

I mean, honestly, to beat a guy that powerful with that much armor on in close range combat and without any armor yourself, you have to be in the 99.99999th percentile of combat skill. Especially considering the Mountain was claimed to be a pretty good fighter. He wasn't just a big slab of meat, he knew how to fight too. I almost think Oberyn took him down too easily, unless we're claiming he's the best melee, close range combatant in Westeros.

[Urzu 7]

Why did they change actors for The Mountain and that guy who likes Daenerys?

[frubam]

What do you think about Sir Mormont's dismissal? I thought after all this time that they've been together, Daenearys would at least cut him some slack(perhaps kicking him off the psuedo-council), but complete banishment? Surely that's going to come back and haunt her one of these days =0\.

[solidguy]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

I mean, honestly, to beat a guy that powerful with that much armor on in close range combat and without any armor yourself, you have to be in the 99.99999th percentile of combat skill. Especially considering the Mountain was claimed to be a pretty good fighter. He wasn't just a big slab of meat, he knew how to fight too. I almost think Oberyn took him down too easily, unless we're claiming he's the best melee, close range combatant in Westeros.

You could also argue that the Mountain was just that much of a physical presence that he wouldn't really need to have the technical skill to build a reputation. Oberyn takes the brute strength element out of the fight by using a longer range spear where clashes of strength like parrying would not favour him. Him choosing light armour reinforces him putting all his eggs in one basket, mobility. So I'd say it's believable that someone could run rings around a heavily armour sluggish giant taking this strategy..which Oberyn did. As you said he would need to be a very skilled figther for this plan to actually work but he wasn't like the Chuck Norris of Westeros

[killer3000ad]

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

Why did they change actors for The Mountain and that guy who likes Daenerys?

Guy who likes Daenerys is Daario Naharis. The previous actor got offered the role in the Transporter 4.

As for the mountain, he has been recast a total of 3 times now. Apparently the second guy, Ian Whyte, was tall enough but had a more athletic build, so they wanted someone who was REALLY physically imposing.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by frubam

What do you think about Sir Mormont's dismissal? I thought after all this time that they've been together, Daenearys would at least cut him some slack(perhaps kicking him off the psuedo-council), but complete banishment? Surely that's going to come back and haunt her one of these days =0\.

In my view she showed remarkable lenience because of her personal fondness for Jorah. She let him walk scot-free for a crime that normally would be met with execution.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by solidguy

You could also argue that the Mountain was just that much of a physical presence that he wouldn't really need to have the technical skill to build a reputation. Oberyn takes the brute strength element out of the fight by using a longer range spear where clashes of strength like parrying would not favour him. Him choosing light armour reinforces him putting all his eggs in one basket, mobility. So I'd say it's believable that someone could run rings around a heavily armour sluggish giant taking this strategy..which Oberyn did. As you said he would need to be a very skilled figther for this plan to actually work but he wasn't like the Chuck Norris of Westeros

Yeah, but, is this the first time the mountain has faced someone wielding a pole arm? Seems kinda hard to believe. Also the big = sluggish is a myth mainly perpetuated by video games. Big guys can usually move very quickly in short distances (assuming they aren't too fat).

[sunset]

Call me weird, but for me the best part was seeing Jaimie's face when it looked like Oberyn was about to win.

He was genuinely happy for his brother.

[Hitenma]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Yeah, but, is this the first time the mountain has faced someone wielding a pole arm? Seems kinda hard to believe.

Oberyn's fighting style is actually unusual.
Most other people don't fight like that.
Just look at Jaime, Brienne, the Hound, ...

[GDB]

Yeah, we're just used to it because it's seen often in anime and the like. It's not common in real life, let alone medieval times like Game of Thrones is based on. The closest so far would be Arya's water dancing teacher.

[HayashiTakara]

If Tyrion dies.... how much of a shit storm is going to explode? I predict one of epic proportions! lol

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

I'm aware that societal perception of adolescence, teenage years, etc have changed, but neurochemistry hasn't. Also, society still viewed early teenagers as young, even if they weren't quite as pampered as they would be today. They would still be apprentices, not masters, or if they were a young king, a regent would usually rule until they were older because it was generally recognized, as today, that a teenager/child lacks experience and mental development.

while you are right about the neurochemistry. these however "kids" are bought up, eating, breathing and living in high nobility life. And i don't mean the pamper part but the backstabbing, the power plays, the lying, the conniving, the murders, children being use as pawns. Daughter basically being sold to the highest bidder to gain a advantage for the family. Sons looking to gain favor form their father to be heir and also to look out for stab in the back to replace them as the heir.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

while you are right about the neurochemistry. these however "kids" are bought up, eating, breathing and living in high nobility life. And i don't mean the pamper part but the backstabbing, the power plays, the lying, the conniving, the murders, children being use as pawns. Daughter basically being sold to the highest bidder to gain a advantage for the family. Sons looking to gain favor form their father to be heir and also to look out for stab in the back to replace them as the heir.

Sure, but we're talking specifically about Robb, Dany, and Jon Snow (Reckoner mentioned Arya, but as he said, so far in the TV version I can accept her as being young). Jon Snow is shown the be a competent leader and able to defeat grown men (some of whom are quite skilled/powerful) in combat. Makes much more sense as a young adult as compared to a young teen. Court life has no impact on his character, really.

Robb rather competently led his forces in battle, again this takes tactics and cunning I can't see any young teen being capable of. His mistakes were ultimately due to inexperience, yes, but they make perfect sense as mistakes someone in their 20's would make due to inexperience, whereas his victories and martial prowess are pretty unbelievable for a 14-15 year old. Again, backstabbing court life didn't really impact his character arc.

Of the three Dany could possibly be younger than she is, since most of the tough decisions have been made for her, though her character still (in my opinion) makes much more sense as a woman in her 20's than a 13 year old. I certainly can't see a 13 year old manipulating Khal Drogo like she did, for instance, regardless of her hard upbringing. That takes more than just conditioning from a cut throat environment, that takes intelligence that develops with age.

I mean, if your point is kids had it harder and couldn't play video games back then, then yeah, I agreed with that to begin with. I'm just specifically saying the TV ages for these characters makes more sense than the book ones.

[DMurphy]

I'm inclined to agree that the slightly older ages work better. I mean, yes, children in vaguely-medieval-war-of-the-roses times were a lot less pampered, and the idea of adolescence didn't really exist, but at the same time - in the books, Robb is very young to be leading an army, especially since he had no reason to expect that his perfectly hale, healthy father was going to die during peacetime; and Jon is very young to be defeating grown men with training in fights.