[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

The entirety of that setup in ep6 is stupid and contrived if we're going to believe that Battler fell for it outright with absolutely no ulterior motive. I would even go so far as to venture it makes no sense for ryukishi to write such a hamfisted narrative unless Genius Battler is true or he intentionally wants Dawn to appear to be a "poorly written forgery" by design (and other parts of ep6 do hold this out, as they "appear" to be nonsensical or poorly written, yet I don't think they are).

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

You don't get to tell me what I would have noticed. Because you don't know anything about me.

If I had not known ahead of time, I would have noticed. It is obvious enough that people who did not believe a word out of Erika or Bernkastel's mouth would have been inclined to take that perspective. I was suspicious of everything about those two before I knew anything about ep6. The spoiler confirmed I was right to be suspect, and the translation confirmed my suspicion that people who did not believe them would find threads that do not make any sense to the Battler/Erika interactions.

You shouldn't underestimate people's capacity to doubt after five to six episodes of constant betrayals.

It's not about trust, it's about whether the human side would be willing and capable of committing murder on the game board. Simply put, it's a kind of action that has never been seen in any previous game, and on top of that, it was taken completely out of the Game Master's line of sight. Or at least the reader's.

Of course, once you've heard of it, there's nothing strange about the human side committing a murder when it can move around and make tape and stuff. But if you haven't specifically thought of it yet, it's hard to make that leap.

[Renall]

Except for all those people who, prior to ep4, were entertaining crazy theories about Battler being involved in the murders or something. Certainly people were thinking about the possibility. And besides which, there is clear precedent for this; bodies appear in earlier episodes without any indication that anyone killed them, whether in reality or in a magic scene. The notion that an event can occur outside the scope of the narrative focus is one inherent to the original arcs.

And if you think "adamantly refuses to issue a detective proclamation" can't logically lead to the conclusion "wants to leave open the possibility of committing murder," I don't know what to tell you, because there are only a tiny handful of reasons you would ever refuse the proclamation.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Of course, once you've heard of it, there's nothing strange about the human side committing a murder when it can move around and make tape and stuff. But if you haven't specifically thought of it yet, it's hard to make that leap.

Not really. She made a theory herself about murdering them after they were discovered and she leaves her own name out of the red she asks Battler to repeat. Meanwhile on the gameboard she stays behind after the adults are done looking around. If your suspicious of everything you can figure this out through process of elimination.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Except for all those people who, prior to ep4, were entertaining crazy theories about Battler being involved in the murders or something. Certainly people were thinking about the possibility. And besides which, there is clear precedent for this; bodies appear in earlier episodes without any indication that anyone killed them, whether in reality or in a magic scene. The notion that an event can occur outside the scope of the narrative focus is one inherent to the original arcs.

And if you think "adamantly refuses to issue a detective proclamation" can't logically lead to the conclusion "wants to leave open the possibility of committing murder," I don't know what to tell you, because there are only a tiny handful of reasons you would ever refuse the proclamation.

The point is moot. You spoiled yourself, so you can never have a legitimate argument about whether you would have figured it out or not. That's why you shouldn't read spoilers. If you do, you forfeit the right to say "I would have figured this out". This applies to everyone equally.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

The point is moot. You spoiled yourself, so you can never have a legitimate argument about whether you would have figured it out or not. That's why you shouldn't read spoilers. If you do, you forfeit the right to say "I would have figured this out". This applies to everyone equally.

No, you're wrong. I know myself, you don't know me. You don't get to make decisions like that. I know myself well enough to know what I would have been thinking. You are correct that I didn't think it at the time, but that's because I already knew. If I hadn't, I would have noticed.

I don't know who you think you are to tell me how I would have been thinking.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

No, you're wrong. I know myself, you don't know me. You don't get to make decisions like that. I know myself well enough to know what I would have been thinking. You are correct that I didn't think it at the time, but that's because I already knew. If I hadn't, I would have noticed.

I don't know who you think you are to tell me how I would have been thinking.

Because I don't know myself that well. No one does.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Because I don't know myself that well. No one does.

This is getting remarkably off-topic, don't you think? I know me the way I do, you know you the way you do, there's never going to be any way to demonstrate otherwise. I suppose speculating on the contents of each others' minds is a "speculation" in a sense, but probably not as intended.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Because I don't know myself that well. No one does.

Do you have enough proof to be willing to place bets on that?

[UsagiTenpura]

Also well...
Battler faking everyone's death and Battler wanting Erika to make the detective's proclamation seems contradictory moves.
She would've found out instantly the death were faked.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Also well...
Battler faking everyone's death and Battler wanting Erika to make the detective's proclamation seems contradictory moves.
She would've found out instantly the death were faked.

So why offer her that option? If she takes it, your plan is torpedo'd. But if she doesn't take it, she has no chance. Then, coincidentally, you offer her a "compromise," and look like you're doing it out of being naive and trusting. But really, you have no other choice to make the story you've created work.

Bern, of course, does not object, because she and Erika have a plan...

Reads fine to me if it's intentional. Doesn't make a lick of sense if Battler was sincerely expecting her to take the proclamation or go entirely without.

[chronotrig]

Well, now that we're here, I might as well say why I personally think Battler planned everything. It's not because it would have been impossible for him not to, but because the story flows too well.

Simply put, EP6 is a story about how Beato is reborn, but must remember her own past without any prompting before she can revive. Since that's extremely hard to do (it means having her solve the entire game with just one Episode), it would take a lot of pressure and a small miracle for it to work.

In other words, from the time that we first see chick Beato, it's setting up a storyline that can only be resolved if Beato reaches the truth on her own and saves Battler. The only ending that makes sense and fits with the name "Dawn" is the one that we end up getting. So I think that Battler did intend for Beato to be left on her own in the middle of a near logic error, one that would force her to find the truth to solve it.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

Reads fine to me if it's intentional. Doesn't make a lick of sense if Battler was sincerely expecting her to take the proclamation or go entirely without.

So far I'm guessing that Battler was testing the waters. It was his plan but before he could give Erika the tape he had to be really certain she wouldn't make the detective proclamation, even under the threat of being kicked out of the game.

Like he was making sure she was up to what he thought she was up to.

With the result of the scenes he got certain and gave her the tape.
Then he's the one who was really "ah she fell for it".

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, now that we're here, I might as well say why I personally think Battler planned everything. It's not because it would have been impossible for him not to, but because the story flows too well.

Simply put, EP6 is a story about how Beato is reborn, but must remember her own past without any prompting before she can revive. Since that's extremely hard to do (it means having her solve the entire game with just one Episode), it would take a small miracle for it to work.

In other words, from the time that we first see chick Beato, it's setting up a storyline that can only be resolved if Beato reaches the truth on her own and saves Battler. The only ending that makes sense and fits with the name "Dawn" is the one that we end up getting. So I think that Battler did intend for Beato to be left on her own in the middle of a near logic error, one that would force her to find the truth to solve it.

Yeah, I completely agree on this, because it is better-written that way. I just don't think it really makes sense as a story unless that's true.

The way Battler suddenly starts turning to Beato when he begins to get trapped, and pointedly suggests the true Beatrice could easily solve the Logic Error, just seems too contrived if he's earnestly stumped. And putting himself in mortal peril works too well with the Kinzo parallels.

In a literary sense, Genius Battler is the most coherent reading of ep6. That doesn't make it true. But oh, how I wish.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

So far I'm guessing that Battler was testing the waters. It was his plan but before he could give Erika the tape he had to be really certain she wouldn't make the detective proclamation, even under the threat of being kicked out of the game.

Like he was making sure she was up to what he thought she was up to.

I think it's more that he was baiting them, because he suspected Bernkastel would get that idea. Pointedly producing a very suspect First Twilight would lead to her suspecting the FT people aren't dead - probably a reasonable assumption for everyone at this point - and luring her in meant he knew she'd try something.

What, then? Well, if Erika takes the detective proclamation, she can't kill anybody, so he'd know that wasn't Bern's plan. She refuses, and claims it's because Bern won't let her. Why won't Bern let her? She doesn't want Erika to be the detective. Why not? Her provided reason is nonsense and a lie and anyone interacting with Bern at this point should know that. What other benefit is there from not being the detective?

The only things are the things a detective cannot do or be. One of them is the culprit. You'll notice how quickly he "realizes" it once Erika begins to announce it. That's not a conclusion you'd figure he'd leap to so quickly if he didn't expect it.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Yeah, I completely agree on this, because it is better-written that way. I just don't think it really makes sense as a story unless that's true.

The way Battler suddenly starts turning to Beato when he begins to get trapped, and pointedly suggests the true Beatrice could easily solve the Logic Error, just seems too contrived if he's earnestly stumped. And putting himself in mortal peril works too well with the Kinzo parallels.

In a literary sense, Genius Battler is the most coherent reading of ep6. That doesn't make it true. But oh, how I wish.

Well, I might back down just a bit from Genius Battler. I'm not sure he intended everything to happen. In particular, I don't think he liked seeing his family killed, though he may have had no choice. All he really had to do, though, was barely lose to Erika in some way that could only be escaped by using the secrets of the game. So he didn't necessarily give Erika the three seals to seal off those three rooms, but because he knew that she would use them well enough to corner him.

[UsagiTenpura]

It does make it the reading that has the most... love.
And the "without love it cannot be seen" is the central theme of arc 6.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, I might back down just a bit from Genius Battler. I'm not sure he intended everything to happen. In particular, I don't think he liked seeing his family killed, though he may have had no choice. All he really had to do, though, was barely lose to Erika in some way that could only be escaped by using the secrets of the game. So he didn't necessarily give Erika the three seals to seal off those three rooms, but because he knew that she would use them well enough to corner him.

I might agree on that, but Genji/Ronove mentions Logic Errors earlier in the episode and I can't help but think the fact that one just happens to occur later is a coincidence too strange to believe. It's possible Battler wanted to be trapped in one and didn't quite care or know how Erika would arrange it, but that seems needlessly risky. The ep6 Logic Error requires Kanon's mobility (through whatever means). Can we be certain any other Logic Error created would do the same? He doesn't want to be maneuvered into an unsolvable Logic Error, after all. The best way to ensure that doesn't happen is to control the one he gets into somehow.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

I might agree on that, but Genji/Ronove mentions Logic Errors earlier in the episode and I can't help but think the fact that one just happens to occur later is a coincidence too strange to believe. It's possible Battler wanted to be trapped in one and didn't quite care or know how Erika would arrange it, but that seems needlessly risky. The ep6 Logic Error requires Kanon's mobility (through whatever means). Can we be certain any other Logic Error created would do the same? He doesn't want to be maneuvered into an unsolvable Logic Error, after all. The best way to ensure that doesn't happen is to control the one he gets into somehow.

Well, it might be that he was counting on Dlanor's help. After all, it's likely that EP6 would have an unsolvable logic error if Dlanor had just used red to say "the windows of both rooms were sealed". Or, it may be that Dlanor couldn't say a red that could cause an irreversible logic error. Either way, Battler had a way out through that window for the majority of the game. He just had to make sure that the logic error he got caught in could be solved by an extra person from the outside (most errors probably could).

[Renall]

Let's say for a second that Genius Battler in some form or other is true - at least the part about Battler endangering himself on purpose for Beatrice's sake - and ask a few questions.

Who is helping him? How are they helping him? Is Dlanor helping? Is Lambda helping? When did he communicate to them about what he's up to? If he did, how did he escape Bern's notice? If he didn't, how did they catch on when Bern wouldn't?

If they're not helping, how many of them know what he's up to? Does he tell Lambda when presenting his solution? Does Beatrice tell her when she's presenting hers? Does Lambda know it all along anyway?

Does Bern know? Is she allowing it to happen to mess with Erika? If she's fooled, how did she get fooled?

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, I might back down just a bit from Genius Battler. I'm not sure he intended everything to happen. In particular, I don't think he liked seeing his family killed, though he may have had no choice. All he really had to do, though, was barely lose to Erika in some way that could only be escaped by using the secrets of the game. So he didn't necessarily give Erika the three seals to seal off those three rooms, but because he knew that she would use them well enough to corner him.

Hmm... I have to say he expected their deaths. Even if he doesn't like to see his family killed, he doesn't have a choice but to see them to their deaths. He's playing Beato's gameboard. Whether through murder or explosion, people die on the gameboard. And as the person responsible for orchestrating the game, he is responsible, from a meta-perspective, for their deaths.
This brought up an interesting point for me. In a sense, isn't he the one who "writes the game's story?" Shove aside the Author Theory for a moment; I'm strictly looking at a gameboard/meta-world perspective here. So with Erika's retroactive sealing of the rooms, he must write the story so that details change to match the scenario. Even if he didn't expect the deaths of the fakers, he knew Erika was aiming to put him in a Logic Error, after all, didn't she admit to it? So he would know she would try to put him in an unrescuable scenario. If he needs to be rescued, and everyone but the fakers is sealed up (to Erika's knowledge), then logically, the next order of action for her would be to take out his only other source of rescue.
More so, since I can't remember correctly, how exactly was she able to use the red to prove she "re-killed" the fakers? She didn't have a reliable perspective, for all we know, she could've been psychotic, and only thought she killed them (poor writing aside; it's possible).