Japanese Mahjong Thread

[Archon_Wing]

O_O You're still persevering on Tenhou!

I admire your determination. Maybe there is hope.

[erneiz_hyde]

So I made a new Tenhou ID because I forgot my last one. And this is the first game I played with it.

Wtf that last round. (I'm the 'holy earth spirit' btw )

brb committing sudoku.

[Kimidori]

Got into the game recently after watching saki.

any chance we have enough player for an animesuki game? :3

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

brb committing sudoku.

How does one "commit" Sudoku? Is that the act of betraying Mahjong for number puzzles?

Originally Posted by Kimidori

Got into the game recently after watching saki.

any chance we have enough player for an animesuki game? :3

I'd wager there's actually too many, considering there's only 4 people per table. Games can linger on for a while too. Plus, if you've seen Saki, you'll know the difference in levels can really put newcomers at a disadvantage. Just be prepared to lose lots in the name of experience, as a warning.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Hiroi Sekai

How does one "commit" Sudoku? Is that the act of betraying Mahjong for number puzzles?

Lol, it's an internet meme. Sudoku here is not the puzzle game, but an intentional slip from seppuku, which means suicide to preserve one's honor.

Originally Posted by Hiroi Sekai

I'd wager there's actually too many, considering there's only 4 people per table. Games can linger on for a while too. Plus, if you've seen Saki, you'll know the difference in levels can really put newcomers at a disadvantage. Just be prepared to lose lots in the name of experience, as a warning.

Eh, Saki's an exaggeration. From my experience you don't really get too much better as long as you know all the basic rules since it still is a luck-based game. Or it could be that my skill is really that low despite the long time I've been playing, not sure

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Lol, it's an internet meme. Sudoku here is not the puzzle game, but an intentional slip from seppuku, which means suicide to preserve one's honor.

Haha, I assumed that's what it was, but I've never heard that meme before.

Eh, Saki's an exaggeration. From my experience you don't really get too much better as long as you know all the basic rules since it still is a luck-based game. Or it could be that my skill is really that low despite the long time I've been playing, not sure

Saki's an exaggeration, yes. However, the difference in playing levels is not, I guarantee you. It's the same with any strategic games, like Chess, Go, Koi-Koi, etc., in that new players will go for the short-term wins, while the experienced can see the game in the long run. I assure you that there's a big difference.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Hiroi Sekai

Saki's an exaggeration, yes. However, the difference in playing levels is not, I guarantee you. It's the same with any strategic games, like Chess, Go, Koi-Koi, etc., in that new players will go for the short-term wins, while the experienced can see the game in the long run. I assure you that there's a big difference.

Put it more simply, the difference between new player and experienced one is that new players try to win, while experienced players try to not lose. Also, rather than something like chess or go, I liken Mahjong more to Poker. Chess and go doesn't rely on luck.

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Put it more simply, the difference between new player and experienced one is that new players try to win, while experienced players try to not lose. Also, rather than something like chess or go, I liken Mahjong more to Poker. Chess and go doesn't rely on luck.

I wonder though, what about Poker and Mahjong makes it random aside from the draws? The winner is still determined by the ones that view the game in the long run, minimize losses and play on wins.

I kind of have to disagree in saying that new players try to win and experienced players try not to lose. It's not so black and white when it comes to long-running endurance games. New players tend to focus on winning yes, but it's rare for them to know how to capitalize on that win, so with one lucky win they'll continue to chase unrealistic wins, much like how a casual gambler throws thousands of dollars down the drain before winning back a quarter of it.

Experienced players on the other hand will know when to precisely aim for small or big hands, anticipate dangers and prioritize on good game flow. Mahjong's much of the same, just as Chess and Go are. It's easier to see when you picture your opponent(s) as a blank slate too, which they are. No matter how much you play them, they'll never make the exact same moves twice. Poker and Mahjong add an additional element of drawing from a face-down pile, giving the illusion that it's more luck based. However, this really only accentuates on the blank slate in the end. "You're not playing the cards, you're playing the house".

It's easiest to see this firsthand if you play in a tournament.

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Hiroi Sekai

I wonder though, what about Poker and Mahjong makes it random aside from the draws? The winner is still determined by the ones that view the game in the long run, minimize losses and play on wins.

Several courts in the US have ruled that poker doesn't qualify as a game of chance for exactly that reason (this case, for example).

This is also why pinball machines have flippers. The original games were essentially the same as pachinko, but the manufacturers realized that if they added some element of skill they could get around gambling laws.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Hiroi Sekai

Experienced players on the other hand will know when to precisely aim for small or big hands, anticipate dangers and prioritize on good game flow.

This is actually what I meant that experienced players try not to lose. Put it this way:

You just drew a tenpai for Nine Gates with 9 waits but decided to damaten. The player on your right and left then discard white and red dragon, which were made pon by your front player. You then draw a green dragon, and there has been no other green dragon on the discard pile or the dora indicator. A new player would discard that green dragon despite the risk of dealing into a yakuman in the false sense of security that he got to tenpai first so he would finish first, and that delicious lure of winning a double yakuman. An experienced player will fold and change his hand accordingly.

That was an overly obvious example, but the point is, advanced tricks in playing riichi mahjong revolves around reading and avoiding getting dealed in by other players (suji, ura suji, betaori, etc) rather than to actually win. To win you just need to know the basic rules.

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

This is actually what I meant that experienced players try not to lose. Put it this way:

You just drew a tenpai for Nine Gates with 9 waits but decided to damaten. The player on your right and left then discard white and red dragon, which were made pon by your front player. You then draw a green dragon, and there has been no other green dragon on the discard pile or the dora indicator. A new player would discard that green dragon despite the risk of dealing into a yakuman in the false sense of security that he got to tenpai first so he would finish first, and that delicious lure of winning a double yakuman. An experienced player will fold and change his hand accordingly.

That was an overly obvious example, but the point is, advanced tricks in playing riichi mahjong revolves around reading and avoiding getting dealed in by other players (suji, ura suji, betaori, etc) rather than to actually win. To win you just need to know the basic rules.

Ah, fair enough. I wasn't entirely sure what you meant by the wording, but it's clear now. :3

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Eh, Saki's an exaggeration. From my experience you don't really get too much better as long as you know all the basic rules since it still is a luck-based game. Or it could be that my skill is really that low despite the long time I've been playing, not sure

I dunno, as I've played more I've gotten much better grasp of potential hands I could aim from initial tiles to weigh (speed vs score), as well as when to give up in a hand to avoid a ron vs calculated risk to stay/go for tenpai (one of the hardest things to learn that I still struggle with, imo), tenpai efficiency in general (one of the easier areas to improve, imo), scoring even with something like tenhou where it scores for you the newb no han thing happens to til you understand scoring to some degree, or the most difficult thing for me, understanding when it is actually a good idea to declare Riichi, rather than doing so for the sake of it.

[erneiz_hyde]

I don't deny that there is skill involved in Mahjong. But my point is, it isn't really an exact science. A lot of times you managed to not get ronned despite discarding a live tile, a lot of times you got dealed in anyway despite your best efforts in reading discards, a lot of times you screwed up your hand because your draws are bad, a lot of times your hand got completed anyways despite the stupid mistake you just made, etc etc. These things still happen even when you've played this a long time.

[Kimidori]

yes, there are luck involved, but skill will still win out at the end. I don't think any pro player (yes, pro player exist in real life, an interview of one here) could lose to any of us here.

a good read: http://osamuko.com/pechorin-style-doctrine/

and I will be on L7447 when I could play if anyone want to play.

http://tenhou.net/0/?L7447

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

I don't deny that there is skill involved in Mahjong. But my point is, it isn't really an exact science. A lot of times you managed to not get ronned despite discarding a live tile, a lot of times you got dealed in anyway despite your best efforts in reading discards, a lot of times you screwed up your hand because your draws are bad, a lot of times your hand got completed anyways despite the stupid mistake you just made, etc etc. These things still happen even when you've played this a long time.

That's 100% fair, this happens really at any game, even chess and go. Even the masters of said games get caught in late unexpected results because what appeared to be a dumb, senseless move turned into a crushing one. Even professionals can't predict these miles ahead with 100% scientific accuracy. At the end of the day, the veterans who have run across these turnabouts and experienced them can combat them more often.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Hiroi Sekai

That's 100% fair, this happens really at any game, even chess and go. Even the masters of said games get caught in late unexpected results because what appeared to be a dumb, senseless move turned into a crushing one. Even professionals can't predict these miles ahead with 100% scientific accuracy. At the end of the day, the veterans who have run across these turnabouts and experienced them can combat them more often.

I really can't think it's the same as chess or go. Chess and go is a open hand game, everything is on the board, 100% skill. If there's any landslide or turnabout victory happening in a game, it's either you're that good or your opponent is that bad. No luck involved in there.

Not so with mahjong. It isn't skill that made your 1-han hand into a mangan because of ura-dora, it isn't a skill difference that made you got dealed into an ippatsu double riichi, it isn't skill that you got east pon which is a dora when being a dealer in east round 4.

Being skilled in mahjong doesn't make you win more often, it makes you lose less often. There is a difference.

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

I really can't think it's the same as chess or go. Chess and go is a open hand game, everything is on the board, 100% skill. If there's any landslide or turnabout victory happening in a game, it's either you're that good or your opponent is that bad. No luck involved in there.

Not so with mahjong. It isn't skill that made your 1-han hand into a mangan because of ura-dora, it isn't a skill difference that made you got dealed into an ippatsu double riichi, it isn't skill that you got east pon which is a dora when being a dealer in east round 4.

Being skilled in mahjong doesn't make you win more often, it makes you lose less often. There is a difference.

Sure, I can definitely agree to someone losing less as opposed to winning more. It's a longer game of attrition, after all. It is also agreeable that a newcomer player can easily luck out and call a kan on what just happens to become an ura-dora.

I think the problem's arising because you're viewing "luck" as a one-sided coin that's entirely determined by a dice roll. Luck can arise from a newcomer chess player when he/she makes what appears to be a bad move early on, but later it's the one key piece that prevents a retreat or defense from reforming. Luck can easily occur in chess and go to the less skilled, and it's the minds that lack strict confidence that are harder to read. I recall an earlier game of mine where I faced off against the chess club head. He was easily leagues above my skill at the time. I made a really stupid move that threw my queen into the attacking zone, and within a few turns I was surrounded. Much later in the game, the positioning brought about by the attackers surrounded the king, limiting his escape. Using one knight and a rook, I somehow managed to trap him and win. That first blunder completely set me up for a win, and at the time I had no idea that it was even doing anything.

Mahjong is a similar fashion. You need to view Mahjong and Poker in the same fashion as chess and go, and see them as games of attrition. The winner isn't someone who wins a round or two. They're the ones that hold the chips when the others have fallen. So in your case, I agree. A newcomer can accidentally gain Dora 8 from an unprecedented kan/ura-dora combo, but if they're inexperienced, it won't happen much again. Not only will the experienced players "fold" by tossing in safe tiles, but they'll capitalize much more somewhere else. In the long run, a newcomer will rarely win against an experienced player.

If it is as you say, there'd be no need to practice playing Mahjong or Poker. If we could have little to no experience, walk in and win like someone smashing buttons on a fighting game, there'd be no skill.

Finally, not specifically meaning to put these on the spot, but:

it isn't a skill difference that made you got dealed into an ippatsu double riichi

It actually is a skill. If your opponent sits in a double riichi, you can utilize the dealt tiles and heavily anticipate what your opponent is waiting for. That's very skill-based.

It isn't skill that made your 1-han hand into a mangan because of ura-dora

it isn't skill that you got east pon which is a dora when being a dealer in east round 4

True, but remember that even if these occur, they have to materialize from someone tossing in your winning tile. I will definitely agree in saying someone can win completely on their own accord through a Tsumo draw while concealed (and that is less "skill-based"), or they can be luckily dealt a ridiculously good hand from the start. However, the former can be opposed by a skillful player's anticipation, who will notice certain tiles leading to a Tsumo win are missing from the pond. They can then go for a very quick game to stop them short. The latter is so rare that one would be lucky to see it once every blue moon.

So overall, yes, being skilled in Mahjong makes you lose less often instead of win more. But to win and be skillful in Mahjong means you need just that. You may win a couple single rounds on your lucky draws, but I guarantee the experienced players will pass you in the long game.

[Kimidori]

did you even read my post?

skill make you win more often, it took me 4 days to wins once to get to 9kyu rank in tenhou, another 3 days to get a 7kyu, and in just another 3 days I got to 2kyu thanks to me reading more and more mahjong article and improve my skill.

if it as luck-based as you said, how there is pro player at all? they do this for a living so they have to wins a lots against others pros and don't lose a single game to average player. see the blog I linked above? the blog author is considered to be good at mahjong and made a educational blog about it, yet he still get curbstomp'd by pro like nothing.

skill will win out at the end, you think it's luck that just because you're not skilled enough, this happens in any game where there is some small luck involved, just ask people in the World of Tank thread, the random match maker could dump you into a team full of noobs, and because of that people with low winrate often blame it for their low winrate and not their skill, but in the end of the day, when people with higher winrate team up in clan war battle (not count to winrate) when almost no luck in involved, they easily curbstomp the team with lower winrate.

skill is also more of a being consistent thing, you might get a lucky hand that have high chance of scoring high from the start and win that hand, but pro can consistently win with good hand that in the end will win out.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Hiroi Sekai

It actually is a skill. If your opponent sits in a double riichi, you can utilize the dealt tiles and heavily anticipate what your opponent is waiting for. That's very skill-based.

Double riichi means he got only one discard, ippatsu means he won off other's first discard or on tsumo. Aside from throwing the exact same tile the guy just threw, there's not much way to defend against that.

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Double riichi means he got only one discard, ippatsu means he won off other's first discard or on tsumo. Aside from throwing the exact same tile the guy just threw, there's not much way to defend against that.

Odds of it are so astronomically low though. And in that case once again, the skilled players will easily earn it back in the long run. Losing one round by double riichi means little in a proper Mahjong game.