[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[cmos]

I don't know if something like this was discussed already. I'll repost my shkannonless theory.

Spoiler for the text:

"Homunculus" v1.0

From ep3, chapter "Rosa and the Witch of the Forest".
Original text: *Grandfather had a person with whom he fell in unrequited love with, called Beatrice. Then, he confined her in this hidden mansion and continued to court her. But she was stubborn and didn't nod her head in agreement. Eventually, she grew pessimistic about being able to escape from here..., and probably, committed suicide. She probably had, ......a posthumous daughter. Grandfather must have believed that her soul was put into a new physical body..., and maybe that the child was the reincarnation of Beatrice...*
Also make sure to read Beatrice's magical interpretation of this story, which will explain Kinzo's beliefs and behavior.
That 2nd Beatrice is the one Rosa saw 19 years ago. Beatrice's story and magical interpretation proves that Kinzo believed that he can "create a homunculus" to trap her soul there and thus resurrect her. That 2nd Beatrice may have had or had not a daughter, that is subject to debate, but let's assume for a while that she hadn't.

From ep1, chapter "Besieged". Kinzo tried repeatedly to 'resurrect' Beatrice. For this purpose he summoned the children from Fukuin House to use them in his black magic rituals (magic interpretation). Or hired them as servants (real-world interpretation).

So we know that he tried to catch her soul and resurrect her; we know that he hadn't been able to do so; we know that the only vessel capable of storing a soul is a human body; and we know that there were many of them in his experiments. So where are all his experiments? Are they locked in Kuwadorian? No, after 2nd Beatrice's death it was probably deemed not safe enough. Those orphans are hired as the servants, isn't it a good cover?
Shannon and Kanon probably were chosen by him as the most fitting. They were supposed to be the 'vessels' or 'homunculi' that must be filled with souls. They were heavily brainwashed from the young age, thus creating their furniture complex. Shannon was supposed to be a homunculus for Beatrice's soul. He can't capture her soul, because previous "homunculus" was actually a child of real Beatrice and looked like her, so Kinzo believed that it has her soul. But the new "homunculus" isn't related to Beatrice at all, doesn't look like her and Kinzo can't make himself believe, that it has Beatrice's soul. Remember, he has very little 'magical talent', because he's a very rational, though maddened by love, businessman and 'magical talent' is imagination and ability to dream.
*"............Kinzo is the same. There is no one with a more pitiful lack of magical talent. ...It's the blood. He has so little talent that I feel sorry for him." "That was because, ......even though he didn't have a scrap of talent, he succeeded. ...He kept studying by himself like mad, and reached the level of magician." "Hmm. His talent in magic was nothing, but it seems he had talent in business and gambling. ...Or was it because of his bravery and madness to bet everything on unreasonable bets. ......Madness sometimes brings about magic. I see, if you look at it that way, maybe I can't really say that Kinzo had absolutely no magical talent. *cackle*cackle*..."*


In the later years, when Kinzo realized that he has not very much left, he brought Kanon to the island to serve as a homunculus for his own soul. Well, would you REALLY put it past him? It would require yet another miracle, but his magic is based on it:
*Grandfather's magic is based on astronomically low probabilities.*
*Dreams and the future, miracles and possibilities are the source of my magical power. No magic without hopes holds any power.*
So he was probably willing to take a bet. Kanon, as Kinzo's future incarnation, was supposed to inherit his name and probably some power too. The exact details are debatable, so I'll leave it at this for now.
About Genji-furniture. Ronove said that he's his 'vessel' in the real world. We can think that Kinzo used him to "summon" Ronove — remember, Kinzo has an exceptional talent in summoning. Maybe Kinzo actually believed in this. And from the real world POV, Genji might have received the same brainwashing as Shannon and Kanon or was very indebted/grateful to Kinzo for some reason, enough to call himself furniture.
That's why they are furniture, created by Kinzo. That's why only they are allowed to wear a One-winged Eagle, like the family members.

But as we can see in ep2, no amount of brainwashing can prevent human feelings from awakening. This creates the conflict between their fates as a furniture, bound to follow their duty imposed by the furniture's creator, and their love, which can only be fulfilled if they "become" humans.
What is the brooch? From ep6 we know:
*However, she had given up, thinking that one of a different class such as herself would never find love with him. That was when Beatrice had given her the golden butterfly brooch and encouraged her.*
*Humans can use magic to take 'resignation', by which they themselves make the probability of success zero, and cancel it out.*
*"The power of belief becomes magic......"*
And the brooch is a crystallization of magic. We also know that it was that bodiless Beatrice the elder, that is a personification of the legends, who gave her the brooch.
So it probably went like this. There were many legends about Beatrice and that island. To Shannon Beatrice was something like a local deity. She prayed to her and wished to receive strength to overcome her fate and be with George. She believed, like the legends say, that spiritual mirror blocks Beatrice's power, so in order for her wish to become true she broke it. The 'brooch' itself symbolizes the power of determination, self-confidence and willingness to overcome fate.

Ep4 has many small interesting things, which I'm too lazy to interpret now. And also has *that* red about all people recognizing Kinzo's existence and undenied blue about his name's inheritance.



Now to ep6.
Let's start with the closed room. Even if we ignore the words of the narrator about Battler possibly confirming everyone else's existence in the cousins' room, if only Erika named them, we can still doubt his reasons. Battler first refused, because "acknowledging that would mean that Kinzo's corpse would also have to be in the cousins' room", but we know from the previous episode that it's false:
*Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse.*
*Of those who remain, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the second floor corridor, while all others were in the dining hall.*
Unless, of course, Kinzo's corpse is indeed stored in the dining hall, which is unlikely. That means that Battler lied about the reasons for excluding Kinzo from the word 'everyone'.

When Hanyuu and Ange are talking about Dlanor, sealing the window:
*"There is no way out except for the windows of the next room over. ......And yet, we are not allowed to include those windows in our reasoning. .........There probably is no answer...for this closed room." "Since no answer exists, then defeat is absolutely certain for whichever player is burdened with the responsibility of explaining." "..................No, one move does exist. ......However, that move.........is one that can never be used again. .....And, ...it is also a part of Beato's heart."*
I'll say that the solution not involving the window exists, though you can interpret it another way, of course. That move can never be used again, because the identity of Kanon will be revealed.
*All people can only use their own names!!* doesn't apply to him, because 'Kinzo' is his own name as well as Kanon.
Therefore: Kanon was never in the cousins' room. He escaped location check using double name, that was excluded. After that he can move freely, place the letter and save Battler. He switched places with Battler, then somehow died and therefore ceased to exist in the guestroom.

Now for the trial. I'll go with the assumption that 'Battler's Beatrice' is Shannon, though it's not impossible to make, maybe a little less likely, theory about Jessica - she has her pros and cons. First of all the trial has a symbolic meaning.
*All this about golden butterfly brooches and miracles of magic...And the trial that the demons were giving them......none of it mattered. Only one thing was being tested. Whether or not they possessed the strong will to make their love come true.*
The fact that people don't die when they're killed in this trial proves this again (see 1st twilight).
They must fight for the miracle of the brooch and that miracle of the brooch simply gives them confidence to overcome their furniture complex and succeed in love.
Shannon: *"You think so...? ......Maybe, we are furniture......just because we think that."*
Only one of them can gain that "miracle", because in order to do that, they must sever their bond with each other. Furniture must obey orders of its master and they were "created"(brainwashed) to be close. To become human, capable of love, they need to overcome their fate and make their own choices. In other words, it's something like George's test, when he must get out of his mother's womb, sever his bonds with her and become free.

Why they have an incomplete souls. Because they're "furniture"; or for example let's say something like "they share their souls through their love-magic-bond", like this:
*"For example, do you think a man with a wife has the right to love another woman?"
".........Of course not. If he loved two women, neither would get a full person's worth of love. ......A man such as that would be unworthy of love."*

Why they have to consume all other souls to become human. Well, they don't. It's just the reward of the duel, that the winner becomes human and the losers "disappear". But remember, in this trial people don't die when they are killed anyway. In fact, Shannon and Kanon don't even necessary need to kill each other for this trial to succeed - the demons thought that George and Jessica would be fighting to death:
*"That's surprising. For a one on one duel, we would have thought-"
"That George and Jessica would've fought."*
"Kanon has disappeared because he died. Beato was born to love Battler and is disappearing because she has lost the qualifications to do that."
Does it mean that if George killed Jessica her soul will be consumed by Shannon? And if so, does it mean that she is another personality of Shannon?
This is concerning Shannon and Kanon souls. As for Beatrice's soul, let's say that she herself is just like an empty vessel for the soul of the old Beatrice with the similar rules; or let's just borrow that part about Shannon splitting her soul to create Beatrice.
Well, this last part is not a perfect explanation, but maybe we can come to a better one.

What do you think, everyone?

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by Judoh

No not even a little bit. It's a lot easier to explain that scene if Nanjo and Kumasawa are faking and they disappear from the room and get killed later. Your explanation doesn't even explain their disappearance.

Furthermore I have hints in my favor for this. Kumasawa and Nanjo were Seventh and eighth twilights.

I don't know how much the twilight order should really be trusted. I mean, we know that in the first twilight people aren't even dead anyways sometimes, like game 5.

It is possible they were killed then, but weren't made into "twilights" until later.

Definitely something interesting to think about and revise the theory. Let me know if you have something that explains the scene as well.

Why would they all lie about Kanon? If they're trying to pin it on Kanon, why all the crap about they don't actually think it was Kanon?

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Another about arc 3
6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
You cannot claim that within the same sentence the same word means different things. If they are not dead then none of them are dead but Kinzo is dead.

I think this is just a point we can disagree on. There are word games in Umineko. The end of episode 6 is probably the most obvious example, where there are both 18 and 17 people at the same time.

[winter 923]

Yes Eva has a egale tattoo and this actually speaks for Shannon. Eva, and therefor any female Ushiromiya born will take the name of their Husbands and lose the right of the one-winged eagle. Only because Krauss and Natsuhi didn't have a child for so long Eva got Kinzo to reconsider. And still, tattooing a Servant is extreme.


"killed" does not mean being shot/attacked whatever. At least not in my country, i hate it if i read in the news "A flood killed x people" "Building collapsed X people killed".
The fact that Furniture can change since EP1 and that these pseudonym's are only bound to the job make me believe that this is possible.
"The 18 names given didn't match up with the 18 people who actually existed"


twisting the red is not absurd, actually most of the red is used against the human side and is twisted already.

Whoever Erika is he/she is not stupid. She only believes in evidence and one truth. For her even just looking in the Bathroom makes the previous red obsolete "while i was investigating the bathroom, Kanon slipped out of the closet, and 'hid again' somewhere in the bedroom!" Well she wasn't right on this one but at least it shows that red is a "truth that you can't object" and "of course isn't bound on time" you can't asume just becaus Kanon wasn't in the bedroom he will never again be (or in fact in 1 minute). Erika admits that there isn't necessarily just one truth. Just because Beatrice used another trick to solve this room doesn't make it any less important. Erika isn't here to solve the game but to show us the way.

[Qaenyin]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

She is in the next room over because at that time she IS Shannon. She is furniture, and playing the role of Shannon at that time. There have been no scenes that suggest she gave up the name Shannon at this point in game 6.

There are scenes that suggest this in game 2 for Kanon (Jessica dies, and so does he) and game 3 for Shannon and Kanon (they both decide to fight against Beatrice and "go to sleep").

Makes no sense to claim someone stops existing as something as soon as they simply change their name. That's too arbitrary and there's been no support for it in the game so far. If Kinzo suddenly decided to call himself Kinzo's Bed would that mean he could just stand in the middle of the room during Arc 5 while Battler was arguing with Erika and the red ignored him because he was his bed? No, because Kinzo is still Kinzo, whether he calls himself Kinzo or not.

[UsagiTenpura]

Who is Erika?
Assuming Erika is someone else among the rest, I tried to figure out who she could be within arc 6. She is the culprit, which helps a lot.

Krauss, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, and Gohda - Not the culprit in red
Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, and Maria - Dead in red
Battler and Kanon (or Shkanon) - Body count in the guestroom prevents it

Now unless you suggest that Erika sealed the next room over while being inside and then broke it's herself (without even being aware of it somehow) she can hardly be someone in the next room over at the time it became a sealed room. Additionally ruling out George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo.

Who's left?
Jessica and Genji.

[AC-Phoenix]

Erika is a random char brought in by Berknkastel and her piece version, so she is the same as Rika in Higurashi.

Frederika Bernkastel
Frederrika -//-

And thats the whole problem Battler will ever have in pointing out what actually happened. All the witches just randomly add new pieces like they want to both confuse Battler and Readers.
She could be the visitor from EP 2 and was just not invited to eat with the other guests, but thats all.
Remember
There are no more than 17 people on this island

[Renall]

Look at the word games this way:

"Dead" is a word with certain metaphorical connotations. The writing of Baroque cantattas is a "dead art." Jimi Hendrix is "dead." A non-functioning television set is "dead." My gay cousin is "dead to" his parents after coming out.

"Kill" is less versatile. Oedipus "killed" his father. You can "kill" a process on your computer. You can "kill" a bill of legislation, or a discussion, or a theory. Tangentially, you can "murder" a piece of music or theater.

"Attack" has slightly fewer still. You can "attack" a mugger. You can also "attack" an idea. An aggressive personality is said to be "attacking" even when it is not physically doing so.

"Homicide" has only one definition. Killing a human being.

Here is Usagi's problem: How do you determine which is being used when? The ep3 First Twilight red is a good example of this. Let's say it's true that Kinzo is biologically dead but Shannon is only metaphorically dead (because she's believed to be). The sentence, even contextualized, does not indicate how we are to determine this. It might be different to say sequentially "Kinzo is dead. Shannon is 'dead.'" But that doesn't actually happen.

There's also the problem when you mix these metaphors. You can "attack" a concept, "kill" it, and declare it "dead." You cannot, however, commit homicide against it, you cannot render it "incapable of taking action," and while you can localize its "death" to the location it was "attacked," you cannot actually kill it through this means I have just described, because unlike a human being an idea can have different truth states. If "Kanon" is a mathematical claim that 2+2=5, and you disprove it in Jessica's room, you might be able to say Kanon was killed in this room. However, I can just as easily say that to somebody a few rooms over who does not know about this proof, Kanon is alive in this room. At that point, red has become a matter of opinion. While opinion can be truth (It is my opinion that Kanon did not commit suicide is a true statement if you believe it), it is utterly meaningless to put it in red.

[UsagiTenpura]

Just to add.
All of them had signs of fatal wounds that resembled gunshot wounds! Murder from outside the room was impossible!! And I'll say even more in red! When the 5 people other than Kinzo were murdered, the murderer was definitely in the same room!
A concept cannot have fatal wounds or anything that looks like one. And you cannot murder a concept. You can also not be a murderer of concepts.

Edit: Also there is somewhat of a bigger problem. Even if we're to accept that Shkanon can somehow evade death by furniture death this is not what the ones in favor of it are suggesting. What is being proposed, in the form it is being proposed, can be resumed to this.
Shannon and Kanon are implied not to be their only names, as thus it makes them deathproof, redproof, and senseproof.

[Renall]

Actually I'd be generous and say a concept can be murdered. However, it cannot be observed to have signs of injury.

You can "kill" a device. But a device that is "killed" is not necessarily dead. If I "kill the lights" or "kill the alarm," they are in fact working properly. They do not "come back to life" when I turn them back on. In fact, a device must not be "dead" to "kill" it.

Machines can "move" and "act" but cannot do so absent specific conditions. If Kanon is a grandfather clock, he can be "attacked" and "rendered incapable of taking action," but isn't dead, assuming he can be merely restarted. On the other hand, if he's broken he's "dead," but he didn't have to be destroyed to be "dead."

[Kitsu]

Just to add.
All of them had signs of fatal wounds that resembled gunshot wounds! Murder from outside the room was impossible!! And I'll say even more in red! When the 5 people other than Kinzo were murdered, the murderer was definitely in the same room!
A concept cannot have fatal wounds or anything that looks like one. And you cannot murder a concept. You can also not be a murderer of concepts.

And this is something that bothers me the most about the furniture death thing. If furniture death is really the way Kanon is able to appear after death then I don't think it can work with episode 3. Something doesn't add up. If he used furniture death he wouldn't have fatal wound. A concept can't be fatal wounded by a gunshot.
The parents found Kanon dead in the chapel. It would be stupid to assume that they didn't notice he was faking if he was plain in sight.
Also it gives problems in episode 4. Shannon and Kanon proclaim they are human before the second twilight occurs. Therefore if the furniture death applied Kanon and Shannon should died at that point this however would be impossible as Kanon was the ninth victim as stated in red.
This as basically the points where I can not find any plausible explanation that might make furniture death not matter how much I stretch.

[Renall]

The "wounds" issue is actually a translation thing that was discussed a while back and I believe chronotrig had it fixed in the later ep1-4 patch.

They appeared to have wounds which resembled fatal gunshot injuries. The red does not say they were actually wounded, merely that they appeared to be.

[UsagiTenpura]

Now let's be serious a moment. If a murderer can simply argue against a concept or make a shame out of a concept to be considered a murderer, then I guess Battler broke Knox 7th in arc 1 when he proved that Jessica's idea about how Eva and Hideyoshi died was wrong.

Applied to the detective genre in general, claiming you can be a murderer by simply arguing out a concept makes it so the entire story is completely pointless.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Now let's be serious a moment. If a murderer can simply argue against concept or make a shame out of a concept to be considered a murderer, then I guess Battler broke Knox 1st in arc 1 when he proved that Jessica's idea about how Eva and Hideyoshi died was wrong.

Applied to the detective genre in general, claiming you can be a murderer by simply arguing out a concept makes it the entire story completely pointless.

Well, what if we look at all the red as applied to a given character and determine from all those traits and statements in aggregate what they are?

Though we don't really need to as ep6 makes very clear that Kanon is at least a person, so he isn't a clock, a concept, or a costume. He may be a person in a costume or a person exploiting a concept, but he is a person.

[serverwolf]

please dont ruin the game with wird answers.
if it was stated in red that someone is dead. its not a metaphora! >.<" if you say that its a metaphora its just the same as denying the all concept, and making the game pointless.

the point in red truth is to make you understand more the puzzel.
its a gift from ryukishi07 in a form of the witch's attack. denying it will make the all story pointless (if you denay that the red truth is an absulute truth, its like you spit on the gift ryukishi07 made!)
this all story is a puzzel game wich you play against ryukishi07!
it's no wonder he made that outher-woman (i allways forget her name >.>) hachi something.
and make her say that she hate it when people dont actully read her story (its obviusly what the fans show to ryukishi!) people won't belive in anything other then red. people wont belive even in the most basic red! then what the point of ryukishi's hard work?


now seriously. dont evade the puzzel with the use of "but i cant know if the red is metaphorically truth or real truth" they are real truth not a metaphora.
the rules are stated in red.
take the time of when the red was stated in consideration.
and take the 'humen' side cluse (since 'magic cannot be something imposible for humen)
and seriously try to explain the puzzels.

[Used Can]

Of course the Red is an absolute truth. I don't think anyone is saying it is a metaphor either. However, even if you're being told something that is true, that doesn't mean that it is not up to interpretation. For example:

Today I made juice. The fruits I used were round and red.

Now, what do you get from that? Apples? Cherries? Plums? Cranberries?

Spoiler for Answer:

Tomatoes

[Qaenyin]

Originally Posted by Renall

Look at the word games this way:
*very large block of text snipped*

The problem with drawing things to that extreme is then everything falls apart and the entire mystery becomes arbitrary, thus rendering any attempt to solve it sketchy at best and wasted effort at worst, and it ruins the entire point of the story(that being that it is theoretically solvable and very clearly solvable in retrospect), which if thoroughly mangled to the degree you suggest it would very much not be.

[winter 923]

Of course red is a real truth. But i don't believe in a absolute truth. Not in this game, not in the real world. If we look at some closed rooms, these who had the chain locked. In EP6 we know that the first twilight was supposed to be fake, still the chain was set and nobody could enter till Gohda destroyed the chain with a tool (don't remember the english name atm) Now to the game quote [Request: 'The rooms with the six people in them are all closed ROOMS'] Acknowledged. [Of course, that's only until Gohda and the others severed the chains and destroyed the closed rooms.] Beatrice actually does say the same thing in previous episodes. Now all that we need is Gohda actually covering up that he already destroyed the chain and the red is destroyed. Is this denying red? I don't think so. I do accept the red that these were closed rooms the same as i accept that Kanon dies or just doesnt exist anymore in room x.

Why does Beatrice need the red in almost any Game to confirm that Kanon is dead? What's so important to this body for the culprit? I don't believe he is invincible, so yes he can die in a homocide like any other person. But he and Shannon do have a reason to change the name.

[LaplaceNoMa]

serverwolf, I'm pretty much sure you haven't read eps 5-6. Well I doubt you read anything at all, your words look like something an anime-watcher-only would say.

[serverwolf]

Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa

serverwolf, I'm pretty much sure you haven't read eps 5-6. Well I doubt you read anything at all, your words look like something an anime-watcher-only would say.

now i wonder why you think that. is it becuse i said smoething you dont agree with? if so can you tell me what make you think that i didn't red EP5-6 and my words look like an anime-watcher-only? i would be happy to know what exactly in my words is so incorect?

Originally Posted by winter 923

Of course red is a real truth. But i don't believe in a absolute truth. Not in this game, not in the real world. If we look at some closed rooms, these who had the chain locked. In EP6 we know that the first twilight was supposed to be fake, still the chain was set and nobody could enter till Gohda destroyed the chain with a tool (don't remember the english name atm) Now to the game quote [Request: 'The rooms with the six people in them are all closed ROOMS'] Acknowledged. [Of course, that's only until Gohda and the others severed the chains and destroyed the closed rooms.] Beatrice actually does say the same thing in previous episodes. Now all that we need is Gohda actually covering up that he already destroyed the chain and the red is destroyed. Is this denying red? I don't think so. I do accept the red that these were closed rooms the same as i accept that Kanon dies or just doesnt exist anymore in room x.

Why does Beatrice need the red in almost any Game to confirm that Kanon is dead? What's so important to this body for the culprit? I don't believe he is invincible, so yes he can die in a homocide like any other person. But he and Shannon do have a reason to change the name.

first of all when i said absulote truth i ment that the red can't lie with "metaphoras" secound i said you need to take into cinsideration the time.
the red truth of 'The rooms with the six people in them are all closed ROOMS' is talking about the time before the room was opened.
... i understand what you ment about the absulote truth. i think it will be better to change the red truth to...um... red rule. sine the red truhe is the rulse for the puzzel you need to slove.

Originally Posted by Used Can

Of course the Red is an absolute truth. I don't think anyone is saying it is a metaphor either. However, even if you're being told something that is true, that doesn't mean that it is not up to interpretation. For example:

Today I made juice. The fruits I used were round and red.

Now, what do you get from that? Apples? Cherries? Plums? Cranberries?

Spoiler for Answer:

Tomatoes

? that dosnt counter what i said.
i said that the red truth is a rule that will help you to find the answer.
your riddel is like this. "today i made juice, now what is the juie i made? -it have to be round and red-"
the rule in wich the juice ingridients is that it have to be round and red, so you need to find out with thous rules what you made.

that example really dont counter what i said its actully use what i said (kinda)

anyway. you dont have to be angry from what i said, i was only talking about the people who belive that 'non red = fake' 'even red = fake'
thous people are my only "enemy" becuse they play helf heartedly the 'game' and its make me really sad to see how they ignore so many hints and concepts that ryukishi made.
i mean comeon, you realy dont understand ryukishi's felling from EP5 and EP6 with all the "the reletionship of the outher of a mystery and a reader is like a love reletionship" "without love you can see it" "i hate (or smoething) the people who dont really read my storys"?

[UsagiTenpura]

Because arc 6 tells us the following things that you seem to have completely missed.

It clearly gave us an answer for the closed rooms, this answer was then validated by Erika. That is, they faked their death.

If you had read it enough to notice that you probably wouldn't try to answer questions that does not exist.

Also, I do not mean to be rude, but your typing is beyond awful. It is well beyond the typos of fast typing errors or even grammatical error. What you write mostly hurts to read. That simply won't help you in expressing yourself if you're barely understood by the other side and discourage many from attempting to read at all.