Code Geass R2 - Overall Series Impressions & Total Series Rating

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

The fact of the matter is that the last battle was between Lelouch, an insane monster with dreams of destroying the world to rebuild on one side, and Schneizel and insane monster with dreams of destroying the world to force peace who was allied with an organization that was the puppet of Japan.

They then tell you to root for the side with Lelouch. There was no attempt to protray Lelouch as wrong, when people find out his plan they instantly agree with it, and the final epilogue shows how Lelouch's genocide brought world peace in an act that is based off of nothing. Certainly not what happened after World War II where Russia tried to take over Germany, and one of the numerous reasons for the nuke was to force Japan to ally itself completely with America.

You can claim that Okouchi and Taniguchi are visionaries but frankly their is no vision. Code Geass was made to be popular they combined Death Note with mechas, and blatantly shilled for Pizza Hut. They added Clamp so that they would design the males to be sexy with women. They could have denounced Lelouch's actions as horrifying, and self serving but they did the exact opposite, they claim his a hero.



The Knights of the Round where complete crap that constantly jobbed to the Japanese. The Britannians in the first season where more competent. Two of them went down in seconds. IN SECONDS!

As for the Britannians having competent leaders, the vast majority of Britannian leaders where insane (Lelouch, Schneizel, and Charles) and/or completely incompetent (basically everyone). Take Lelouch's actions after he leaves the Black Knights, instead of using charisma to win them back he basically tells them to F-Off. Do I even need to point out that one General shot the plane he was riding in down, or the fact that the average Britannians response to lelouch was to stand still and wait to be geassed. As for Toudou he lost every battle he commanded in the series, and was at one point outsmarted by Suzaku. The only person who could effectively lead was Xingke.

By Zero Requiem, heck, going back to R2 20, Lelouch had basically thrown in the towel due to what had just transpired, and started going down the Thanatos Gambit path. World peace was still his goal, but so was an excuse to die, and the latter compromised things.

As far as the Knights of the Round go, they didn't die due to incompetency as much as they did to a h4x mode Suzaku.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

The Knights of the Round where complete crap that constantly jobbed to the Japanese. The Britannians in the first season where more competent. Two of them went down in seconds. IN SECONDS!

There are only two instances where any Rounds are "jobbed" as you put it, and both times are due to them being up against a much more advanced knightmare (Anya keeps going down due to Marianne messing with her). In every other engagement, they are shown to be highly dangerous and skilled combatants.

Note that Suzaku and Kallen are portrayed as basically equal in terms of skill throughout their battles, yet when Kallen faces the Coquista with the SEITEN she puts Suzaku over her knee.

Also remember that Suzaku used the 7th generation Lancelot in Shinjuku to decimate the terrorists in their armed 5th generation Sutherlands when the Lancelot only had its slash harkens and shields.

Now how do you expect someone, even an ace knightmare pilot, to fare when they are facing an opponent with a four generation gap in technology? Dorothea and Monica brought fists to a knife fight, while Suzaku brought an uzi.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

As for the Britannians having competent leaders, the vast majority of Britannian leaders where insane (Lelouch, Schneizel, and Charles) and/or completely incompetent (basically everyone). Take Lelouch's actions after he leaves the Black Knights, instead of using charisma to win them back he basically tells them to F-Off. Do I even need to point out that one General shot the plane he was riding in down, or the fact that the average Britannians response to lelouch was to stand still and wait to be geassed. As for Toudou he lost every battle he commanded in the series, and was at one point outsmarted by Suzaku. The only person who could effectively lead was Xingke.

At least the Britannians actually had competent leaders. My point was that between the Japanese and Britannians, the former have only one remotely competet leader among them, while the latter have several, and all save Andreas Darlton (and possibly Calares, but we don't get enough of a sense of his abilities) are at least a decade younger than Tohdoh, who as you yourself pointed out, is frequently portrayed as lacking compared to the Britannians. Even Xing-ke gets knocked down a peg for the last arc.

As well, while the Britannians are shown to be the villains, the Japanese are every bit as petty and racist as their enemies and if anything are more short sighted, as Lelouch, Schneizel, and Charles are all thinking in terms of making the world better (according to them) while the Japanese really don't care about anyone but themselves.

[NinjaYali]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

My overall impression of the series was quite different.

Thus, I strongly disagree with that opinion (in bold) as it takes away from the very heart of what makes Code Geass stand out alone from most other anime.

I don't see Code Geass as anti-American at all, if by "american" you're referring to the United States of America.

If however you're thinking of the americas as a whole, then I can see how Code Geass could possibly come across that way.

Britainnia itself encompasses nearly 1/3 of the world much like the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics did, and much of South America is Socialist, so there is some credence to your view if we are to assume that Nationalist Socialism is the prevelant ideology of Britainnia (which it is in part).

It is clear that Britannia is more akin to the governments of dictators like Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, and the other Totalitarian Socialist-pigs of Central and Southern America.
The regimes of Stalin, Mao, and Hitler are what Britiannia was modeled after in Code Geass.
The Eugenic overtones of Social-Darwinism alone (in Charles' speech in the first season) clearly show this.

(From Episode 6 of S1, "The Stolen Mask")

All men…are NOT created equal! Some are born smarter, or more beautiful, or with parents of greater status. Some, by contrast, are born weak of body or mind, or with few, if any, talents. All men are different! Yes, the very existence of man is discriminatory! That's why there is war, violence and unrest. Inequality is not evil. Equality is! What became of the EU, who claimed that all are equal? It is in constant conflict because its tenets go against human nature! The Middle Eastern Federation, which harbors similar sentiments, is constantly mired with sloths! But our Britannia is not like them! We put an end to wars and evolve with every conquest! Britannia alone looks forward and moves forward to a better future! The death of my son Clovis is yet more proof that our empire is evolving. Fight! For the future rests in the hands of its ruler! ALL HAIL BRITANNIA!!!!!

That speech is in direct contrast to the Declaration of Indepence of the United States which states;

...We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among those are Life, Liberty, and the persuit of happiness--That to secure these Rights, Governemnts are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...

That's the polar opposite of Charles' speech.

Much of old Chuck's speech also mirrors Mussolini's Fascist doctrine.
A self appointed (through the barrel of a gun) ruling Oligarch like Fidel Castro or a terrorist like Che Guvera, did kill innocent women and childen in gulags like those of the La Cabana consentration camps.
The Nazis of Germany are infamous for their camps and mass killings, as is the USSR in the Katyn Massacre and Ukrainian Holocaust.
Britannian did the same thing to the Japanese in Shinjuku and the other Japanse ghettos.
Look at Cornelia (in episode 7 Attack Cornelia), she went ahead and had people mowed down because she believed they were conspiring with terrorists in Saitama ghetto.

That reminds me of Tiananmen square when the Communist Chinese murdered student-protestors with tanks because they dared to disagree with the party-line.
We saw a lot of that kind of Totalitarian oppressive attitude in the Britannian leaders of Code Geass.

Look at the second episode (The White Knight Awakens) where Clovis makes a mockery of the mass murder he has ordered in Shinjuku, then goes back to the party he's having without missing a beat.
It shows he cares nothing for people of Japan or their lives.
I'm sure it can be argued he got that way due to his upbringing.
Speaking of which, look at Charles' complete disregard for humanity with the Ragnarok connection.
That kind of thinking is dripping with Scientific-Socialist and Fascist dogma both of which stem from Nieztche, Hegel, and Charles Furrier's ideas of Utopia through the merging of all mankind into one collective being.
None of which has ever bore any fruit, well maybe a few, Furrier certainly was one--Oceans of Lemonaid my ass

In contrast to Britannia we have Lelouch, and his Black Knights.
From the very begining Lelouch says, "Its not me who was wrong. It was the world."
Okouchi also makes a direct attack on Maoist-Socialist philosophy when he has Lelouch state to the KGB/KVD/SS trooper-wanna-be in front of him, "What's wrong? Why not shoot? Your opponent is just a schoolboy. Or have you finally realized…the only ones who should kill are those who are prepared to be killed!
That flys in the face of Mao's "All political power comes from the barrel of a gun" statement.
Mao and his cohorts were not prepared to be killed like Lelouch was.
That's what the writer is trying to say here, that all dictators, no matter who they may be, are cowards. From the captain of the local secret police all the way up to the chairman of the party, or in the Case of Code Geass, the Emperor, they are nothing but stinking yellow-bellies.

Lelouch forms the United States of Japan in R2 in order to free Japan (which is simply a benefit for the Japanese people as his real intent is personal).
That's a direct parallel to the creation of the United States of America.
Okouchi might be scolding the US for becoming too much like the former Soviet Union (and I would agree we are), but I see nothing that denigrates or derides our Constitution and its Bill of Rights or the Laissez Faire Capitalist system we were supposed to have (but never did thanks to Alexander Hamiliton).

Code Geass is a superb series BECAUSE it points out, through its fictional world, the truths of the "isms" and "ologies" of the Real World.
It weighs them, measures them, and points out the simple fact that any system which is Totalitarian is found to be WANTING.
In addition, Okouchi and Taniguichi show us at the very end of the entire series, with Lelouch's final act (Zero Requiem), that Lord Acton was right:
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely

Code Geass is a fantastic anime (even with its problems, which I will not go into).
However, I see nothing in it that takes away from the founding documents of the United States or the principles of Liberal-Capitalism.
Corporatism, well now that's another matter, for another discussion, at another time.

You know that's an interesting argument comparing Brittania to a socialist dictatorship.

And I'll try to avoid being biased *hugs chibi-Rosa*.

*ahem*

See, the problem here is that Brittania is represented as a monarchy and they have a powerful aristocracy. In fact, we've been shown from the start that Brittania is much more interested in feudalism and maintaining power for the elites. Britania as Nazism sure. But Britania is anything but socialist.

If this were a 'socialist dictatorship' there would be no king and all the aristocrats would be dead replaced by a bunch of guys claiming to be fighting for the people.

By anti-American I meant the stereotypical view of America. A imperialistic nation attempting to spread it's influence through invasion.

the Knights of the Round go, they didn't die due to incompetency as much as they did to a h4x mode Suzaku.

Well, let's get away from politics for a second.

Here's my other beef.

Like Naruto.

Too many characters. Too many pointless background. The Knights were all-important idealist/foe on other side Suzaku, his two tagalong buddies Anya (token loli for loli's sake) and Gino (hugs a lot to pander to yaoi fangirls), three other girls who I forgot. I think one of them was Jewish, Polish or something Krusce something. Nonnette something and whatsherface. Then we have crazy guy and big leader who get kill off quickly enough thanks to hax, super-powered mechas that can take down an entire armoured army of robots.

I'm also wondering how the Indian scientist was able to receive such an excellent education that she was at the forefront of hax-mecha development despite being a 2nd-class colonial from the Chinese Empire no less where apparently equality is quite a problem. And how the hell she was able to receive so much funding in order to assist her 2 month revolutionary scientific advances.

British scientists with shitload of funding can't fix your Laser? No problem, hire the Indian and she'll have it fix in one second.

I would have to say Code Geass is not the best thing since slice bread but one of the better things since sliced bread. After a while of watching this series, I long doubt this is this great 'visionary' series.

They could have denounced Lelouch's actions as horrifying, and self serving but they did the exact opposite, they claim his a hero.

Well, it was at this point that as I mention before they became too ambitious and threw in some weird philosophy. As I mention before, they should have kept it as Great White Leader helps Oppressed Colonials. Maybe distasteful to some (Avatar controversy) but at least it made more sense.

Indeed, is Lelouch this great democratic idealist? One time, he claims he wants to destroy Britannia and it's oppression and militarism (but for 10 years he was quite content to live as a student until he got superpowers). And then we keep on hearing in the narration about how he wants a 'better world for Nunnally'. I don't know about you but from the school scenes, it seems like she was living the freaking life. Loving brother, good house (although for some living in schoolgrounds is hell), food, shelter, loving council friends and her own maid. This maybe the most relaxed character Kaori has played with Lynne coming second (visits to the beach was out of the question in the real Battle of Britain ladies) And if she was discovered by the other royals, it was shown she was welcome with pretty much open hands.

Did he want to promote freedom for the Japanese against PommyYanks? Perhaps, but then Sunrise pulled out that whole confusing stunt where Lelouch decided 'first, I need to make them hate me even more. Let's go oppressing times 20 and invade Japan for great ideal'. Nevermind, he could have negotiated since he had freaking control of the world and set out the policies he wanted. Really? Take over the world, become a abominable tyrant despite being a rebel leader before and kill yourself like Jesus? Tvtropes list this as Stupid Death and I agree. How long did a peace last after a tyrant died and the rebuilding process has finished? Not to mention, he could have I don't know been a good ruler. And then there was that whole unfortunate issue with an completely autonomous Japan. Even his sister wanted it but then he went ahead for more rebellion. Speaking of his sister and 'rebellion' for Japan at the same time he left the field of battle just to save her. So is his sister is more important then the liberation of millios? Yes, the messages in this show if it's trying to convey one confuses me as well.

Speaking of confusing. Remember big, bad, Social Darwinist, Imperialist Charles? I liked him better when he was just that. And then he came out of freaking no-where with this huge extended metaphor of trying to kill of sub-consciousness of all of humanity. Tl;dr free will. BUT!! At the same time, it turns out Charles wanted to create a 'better world for dear, sweet Nunnally' by making us all think the same so we don't beat each other up. So the evil emperor launched wars of aggression not for resources but for special portals as part of this big plan for his sweet little girl? At the same time, this sister is the same reason we have this masked terrorist running around blowing up his dad's army and infrastructure as well all while riding a skateboarding robot. Talk about the face that launched a thousand robots. This maybe Kaori's evilest role yet since Lynette who has turned me into a possible pedophile as I now feel irresistible urges to collect pictures of her and Yoshika doing things.

Animesuki, I propose a campaign to assasinate Nunnally before she becomes the casus belli for another war. Now you know the REAL reason, we have the War on Terror.

I think Lelouch quite simply comes down to a opportunist or a manipulator for great entertainment (LeDouche decides to label Euphie's unfortunate massacre as intentional and lead the Japanese to what the want anyway). But even then...how many of his strategies involved blowing up the environment?

[azul120]

Originally Posted by NinjaYali

Indeed, is Lelouch this great democratic idealist? One time, he claims he wants to destroy Britannia and it's oppression and militarism (but for 10 years he was quite content to live as a student until he got superpowers). And then we keep on hearing in the narration about how he wants a 'better world for Nunnally'. I don't know about you but from the school scenes, it seems like she was living the freaking life. Loving brother, good house (although for some living in schoolgrounds is hell), food, shelter, loving council friends and her own maid. This maybe the most relaxed character Kaori has played with Lynne coming second (visits to the beach was out of the question in the real Battle of Britain ladies) And if she was discovered by the other royals, it was shown she was welcome with pretty much open hands.

Even when they were taken in by the Ashfords, Lelouch feared everyday that he and Nunnally might eventually be cast aside as political pawns once again. He was anything but content with his life as a student. In his own words, after he got Geass, he "had been living a lie". And when Nunnally had been taken back in to the royal family in R2, Lelouch knew that she would be used as a pawn against him if he were to be found out again.

Did he want to promote freedom for the Japanese against PommyYanks? Perhaps, but then Sunrise pulled out that whole confusing stunt where Lelouch decided 'first, I need to make them hate me even more. Let's go oppressing times 20 and invade Japan for great ideal'. Nevermind, he could have negotiated since he had freaking control of the world and set out the policies he wanted. Really? Take over the world, become a abominable tyrant despite being a rebel leader before and kill yourself like Jesus? Tvtropes list this as Stupid Death and I agree. How long did a peace last after a tyrant died and the rebuilding process has finished? Not to mention, he could have I don't know been a good ruler. And then there was that whole unfortunate issue with an completely autonomous Japan. Even his sister wanted it but then he went ahead for more rebellion. Speaking of his sister and 'rebellion' for Japan at the same time he left the field of battle just to save her. So is his sister is more important then the liberation of millios? Yes, the messages in this show if it's trying to convey one confuses me as well.

Again, I must reiterate, this was after Lelouch had been pushed beyond the Despair Event Horizon following Nunnally's apparent demise and the betrayal from the Black Knights. As much as he wanted to change the world, he wanted to do it in such a way that would also result in his demise. Being the good emperor wouldn't afford him that escape.

Speaking of confusing. Remember big, bad, Social Darwinist, Imperialist Charles? I liked him better when he was just that. And then he came out of freaking no-where with this huge extended metaphor of trying to kill of sub-consciousness of all of humanity. Tl;dr free will. BUT!! At the same time, it turns out Charles wanted to create a 'better world for dear, sweet Nunnally' by making us all think the same so we don't beat each other up. So the evil emperor launched wars of aggression not for resources but for special portals as part of this big plan for his sweet little girl? At the same time, this sister is the same reason we have this masked terrorist running around blowing up his dad's army and infrastructure as well all while riding a skateboarding robot. Talk about the face that launched a thousand robots. This maybe Kaori's evilest role yet since Lynette who has turned me into a possible pedophile as I now feel irresistible urges to collect pictures of her and Yoshika doing things.

The Darwinist was the proverbial mask for Charles to maintain, since it allowed him to stay in control of the world, while he worked on Ragnarok. As Lelouch found out, the war had been just one big distraction.

I think Lelouch quite simply comes down to a opportunist or a manipulator for great entertainment (LeDouche decides to label Euphie's unfortunate massacre as intentional and lead the Japanese to what the want anyway). But even then...how many of his strategies involved blowing up the environment?

He was opportunistic, but that's oversimplifying it. He had no other recourse at the time for the Euphie incident, since the Japanese more likely than not just wouldn't buy it.

[NinjaYali]

Originally Posted by azul120

Even when they were taken in by the Ashfords, Lelouch feared everyday that he and Nunnally might eventually be cast aside as political pawns once again. He was anything but content with his life as a student. In his own words, after he got Geass, he "had been living a lie". And when Nunnally had been taken back in to the royal family in R2, Lelouch knew that she would be used as a pawn against him if he were to be found out again.



Again, I must reiterate, this was after Lelouch had been pushed beyond the Despair Event Horizon following Nunnally's apparent demise and the betrayal from the Black Knights. As much as he wanted to change the world, he wanted to do it in such a way that would also result in his demise. Being the good emperor wouldn't afford him that escape.



The Darwinist was the proverbial mask for Charles to maintain, since it allowed him to stay in control of the world, while he worked on Ragnarok. As Lelouch found out, the war had been just one big distraction.



He was opportunistic, but that's oversimplifying it. He had no other recourse at the time for the Euphie incident, since the Japanese more likely than not just wouldn't buy it.

What do you mean? From what I can tell, Nunnally was welcome with open arms and allowed at least for sometime to follow her own policy of promoting an autonomous Japan. And what about the rest of the family? They were all glad to see her alive. Actually, they aren't even part of this whole political backstabbing thing when we find out and perhaps even more bizarre is that Charles sent them away to 'protect them' from his evil brother. Really...

Ragnarok was pretty much the lynchpin to why this series fell apart for me and indeed up to that point it made sense until it started to attempt spruiking ideas of international peace. International peace through confusing ideas might I add instead of say negotiations anyone? Not launching wars of aggression? Not being a horrible dictator in order to inflame others?

So, a guy 'pretending' to be racist and spruiking his racist agenda as much as possible for most of the season and going around invading other countries actually turns out to be a nice guy trying to make peace. Yep, beat up the natives. Great peace there! Mate, how bout instead of going around beating up the natives for your sweet daughter's ideal world, YOU BRING THEM TO THE FUCKING NEGOTIATION TABLE!! Or better yet, you negotiate with them for access to these 'speshul portals'

So all along, all the big bads were trying to give us 'world peace' for the sake of a loli. And now we've put 3 lolis in charge of government. So is this the great Code Geass vision? An International Loli Conspiracy? *pulls out Ak-47*

Excuse me while I kill some little girls before they kill us all!

Lelouch feared everyday that he and Nunnally might eventually be cast aside as political pawns once again

So you're telling me that Nunnally wasn't pretty much living a sheltered life? If she had been forced to live in a ghetto with the Japanese then I'd might appreciate her situation a bit more.

As much as he wanted to change the world, he wanted to do it in such a way that would also result in his demise. Being the good emperor wouldn't afford him that escape.

That doesn't change the fact that it's still a Stupid Sacrifice. With control over the world, he could have easily pushed through whatever policy he wanted and kill himself afterwards.

And how many times has a tyrant's death led to long lasting peace beyond reconstruction?

[azul120]

Originally Posted by NinjaYali

What do you mean? From what I can tell, Nunnally was welcome with open arms and allowed at least for sometime to follow her own policy of promoting an autonomous Japan. And what about the rest of the family? They were all glad to see her alive. Actually, they aren't even part of this whole political backstabbing thing when we find out and perhaps even more bizarre is that Charles sent them away to 'protect them' from his evil brother. Really...

Not quite. Nunnally was accepted by her siblings, but used as a pawn by Charles to keep Lelouch from acting against him. Charles just let Nunnally go about her business, knowing that she would only go so far.

Ragnarok was pretty much the lynchpin to why this series fell apart for me and indeed up to that point it made sense until it started to attempt spruiking ideas of international peace. International peace through confusing ideas might I add instead of say negotiations anyone? Not launching wars of aggression? Not being a horrible dictator in order to inflame others?

So, a guy 'pretending' to be racist and spruiking his racist agenda as much as possible for most of the season and going around invading other countries actually turns out to be a nice guy trying to make peace. Yep, beat up the natives. Great peace there! Mate, how bout instead of going around beating up the natives for your sweet daughter's ideal world, YOU BRING THEM TO THE FUCKING NEGOTIATION TABLE!! Or better yet, you negotiate with them for access to these 'speshul portals'

So all along, all the big bads were trying to give us 'world peace' for the sake of a loli. And now we've put 3 lolis in charge of government. So is this the great Code Geass vision? An International Loli Conspiracy? *pulls out Ak-47*

Excuse me while I kill some little girls before they kill us all![/QUOTE]

It's because Charles was a Utopia Justifies the Means kind of guy. He believed the Ragnarok Connection was the only way to guarantee peace, as he believed that as long as masks and lies exist between humans, there could be no peace. Thus he kept up the masquerade as Darwinistic Emperor to satiate the Britannian status quo, and distract everyone from his actual plan.

So you're telling me that Nunnally wasn't pretty much living a sheltered life? If she had been forced to live in a ghetto with the Japanese then I'd might appreciate her situation a bit more.

She was a blind cripple living on the kindness of others, who could be taken in and used as a pawn at any time. She and Lelouch had their lives threatened by the war of Japan that Britannia itself launched while they were there. Just because she hadn't been living in poverty didn't mean she wasn't in peril.

That doesn't change the fact that it's still a Stupid Sacrifice. With control over the world, he could have easily pushed through whatever policy he wanted and kill himself afterwards.

And how many times has a tyrant's death led to long lasting peace beyond reconstruction?

I'm not arguing against any of that. I'm simply arguing that Lelouch had abandoned all hope of carrying on in the world any longer. He was a broken man.

[NinjaYali]

Originally Posted by azul120

Not quite. Nunnally was accepted by her siblings, but used as a pawn by Charles to keep Lelouch from acting against him. Charles just let Nunnally go about her business, knowing that she would only go so far.



So all along, all the big bads were trying to give us 'world peace' for the sake of a loli. And now we've put 3 lolis in charge of government. So is this the great Code Geass vision? An International Loli Conspiracy? *pulls out Ak-47*

Excuse me while I kill some little girls before they kill us all!

It's because Charles was a Utopia Justifies the Means kind of guy. He believed the Ragnarok Connection was the only way to guarantee peace, as he believed that as long as masks and lies exist between humans, there could be no peace. Thus he kept up the masquerade as Darwinistic Emperor to satiate the Britannian status quo, and distract everyone from his actual plan.



She was a blind cripple living on the kindness of others, who could be taken in and used as a pawn at any time. She and Lelouch had their lives threatened by the war of Japan that Britannia itself launched while they were there. Just because she hadn't been living in poverty didn't mean she wasn't in peril.



I'm not arguing against any of that. I'm simply arguing that Lelouch had abandoned all hope of carrying on in the world any longer. He was a broken man.[/QUOTE]
Mate as I pointed up above it still doesn't make much sense. Getting guys to all think the same or whatever for sake of world peace? Whatever, go do that.

But if he really wanted access to these special portals that badly just ask them for a scientific trip or something. I'm sure anyone would be quite happy to let you in while you still have your sinister plans of worldwide assimilation into a hive mind. Besides, who's going to start a foreign affairs incident with a superpower just for scientific research? He could still easily have pulled it off by keeping the whole thing under wraps, censored and add to the fact that most people didn't know about Geass or this other mystical hoodoo and his chances of success are doubled.

The nobles? He's the freaking king. He could have found a million ways to appease his ruling class beyond invading others. They had two entire god-damn continent of land for agriculture, food, jewels, big party whatever. They don't like his lack of action? Execute them. And besides executing them, he could have easily geassed his opposition if they were that desperate for invasion that they wanted to overthrow him. And here's the other thing. You spend millions of resources and many other men to invade other countries because of a convoluted plan for world peace. If he were going for the whole 'si vis pacem, vis bellum' thing I'd like it if he kept it simple as 'invade all, put all under my control and we have world peace HOLLA!'

If we had some glimpse of this at the start (since when were Gods ever mention before in Geass?) instead of it being thrown in mid-way then it may seem more sensible.

To me, C.G really fell on it's heels when it tried to throw in this peace ideology out of nowhere.

You know speaking of Lelouch being broken, what Rolo's sacrifice not enough to make him think 'might as well live on' and thus we get to that whole Zero Requiem Bull. If there is at least one positive for the whole LeDouche Plan is at least Suzie fits in well with it. He wanted to reform the system (oddly enough as a collaborative soldier instead of a politician) and at least LeDouche was smart enough to push through said reforms. Shame, he didn't keep it up for longer.

[roriconfan]

You guys keep on self excusing the vagueness in a series that is mostly show than meaning

[azul120]

Originally Posted by NinjaYali

Mate as I pointed up above it still doesn't make much sense. Getting guys to all think the same or whatever for sake of world peace? Whatever, go do that.

And might I reiterate that I was not denying that it was nonsensical. Lelouch was too caught up in his quest for death to heed much mind to that part of it.

But if he really wanted access to these special portals that badly just ask them for a scientific trip or something. I'm sure anyone would be quite happy to let you in while you still have your sinister plans of worldwide assimilation into a hive mind. Besides, who's going to start a foreign affairs incident with a superpower just for scientific research? He could still easily have pulled it off by keeping the whole thing under wraps, censored and add to the fact that most people didn't know about Geass or this other mystical hoodoo and his chances of success are doubled.

Perhaps. But regardless of the Fridge Logic involved, there wouldn't be a show to begin with I guess.

The nobles? He's the freaking king. He could have found a million ways to appease his ruling class beyond invading others. They had two entire god-damn continent of land for agriculture, food, jewels, big party whatever. They don't like his lack of action? Execute them. And besides executing them, he could have easily geassed his opposition if they were that desperate for invasion that they wanted to overthrow him. And here's the other thing. You spend millions of resources and many other men to invade other countries because of a convoluted plan for world peace. If he were going for the whole 'si vis pacem, vis bellum' thing I'd like it if he kept it simple as 'invade all, put all under my control and we have world peace HOLLA!'

If we had some glimpse of this at the start (since when were Gods ever mention before in Geass?) instead of it being thrown in mid-way then it may seem more sensible.

To me, C.G really fell on it's heels when it tried to throw in this peace ideology out of nowhere.

You know speaking of Lelouch being broken, what Rolo's sacrifice not enough to make him think 'might as well live on' and thus we get to that whole Zero Requiem Bull. If there is at least one positive for the whole LeDouche Plan is at least Suzie fits in well with it. He wanted to reform the system (oddly enough as a collaborative soldier instead of a politician) and at least LeDouche was smart enough to push through said reforms. Shame, he didn't keep it up for longer.

Well, Lelouch didn't have anyone left after Rolo sacrificed himself, so he saw no other purpose for himself to continue living on beyond fixing the world. He was just too keen on finding a fix that also gave him the final exit he was looking for, regardless of whether or not it wouldn't work in reality by all rights.

And regarding Charles, I guess he needed to show he was boss, due to the whole cutthroat nature of Britannian royalty, which he and V. V. had been under peril from when they were young.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

> Storyline and characters: Things are / or may be / kept vague for several reasons. Whether ir be speculation, for you to think about it, or they simply didn't have enough time to do a whole arc explanation about it.

Ι agree.

Originally Posted by Arbitres

They don't have a 100+ episode quota like some animes, so it was hard to explain things in the episode quo of 25 episodes, you are forgetting that. Having an entire episode of explanation would be useful, but everything after that would feel rushed and sort of drained of it's enjoyment.

Neon Genesis. All the explainations were given outside the series and no episode was wasted on explaining all the mess. It was still a 26 episode series with a huge amount of action, character interaction and food for the mind.

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Don't like it? Then why are you even here on animesuki? Where people have different likes and dislikes, with equally different personalities meetup.

Are you saying all people who disagree should leave the site?

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Code Geass R1 was alot better, I agree. But R2 shouldn't be thrown to the lions because it wasn't all explanation!explanation.

My negativity is mostly aimed at those walls of text that are going on for dozens of pages, trying to self-excuse things not even the scriptwritters had thought of. It's as silly as all those religious wars over the true meaning of a metaphor an ignorant sheepherd said 3000 years ago and whose words are now remembered after a 100 generations of mutated oral tradition.

In a few words, if you want to overthink something, make sure there is actually something there to think about. If not, it all exists in your individual mind and is nowhere in the series. I bet there would still be debates over Lelouch not being dead if there was not an official answer.

[roriconfan]

^ You bet your ass it ain't getting anywhere. I asked some months ago why was Lelouch brainwashed to trap CC in the beginninng of R2, yet none of the soldiers knew she was immortal despite everything being an elaborate plan of Charles to get CC. What was the reply I got? That Charles did not reveal all the plan to his footmen, as they were not important to know. This is the official answer so to speak.

Now what kind of crap is all that?
"Ok guys, go capture that dinosaur. No, you don't need to know what a dinosaur is, just go get it."
What a load of crap! An elaborate plan that envolves not informing all participnts of key information that desides victory or defeat. Clasified information my butt; CC survived, got Lelu and screwed Charles because he didn't say "don't use bullets, she is immortal".
And that is only one of many plot holes the fans keep trying to self excuse with any means possible. A plot hole is a plot hole and unless they make a remake with you in charge, no matter what you say is unsupported. Plain and simple.
Now excuse me, I have to go check out the latest scientific explainations over Aizen's masterplan and the in-depth strategies in Bleach.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

^ You bet your ass it ain't getting anywhere. I asked some months ago why was Lelouch brainwashed to trap CC in the beginninng of R2, yet none of the soldiers knew she was immortal despite everything being an elaborate plan of Charles to get CC. What was the reply I got? That Charles did not reveal all the plan to his footmen, as they were not important to know. This is the official answer so to speak.

Now what kind of crap is all that?
"Ok guys, go capture that dinosaur. No, you don't need to know what a dinosaur is, just go get it."
What a load of crap! An elaborate plan that envolves not informing all participnts of key information that desides victory or defeat. Clasified information my butt; CC survived, got Lelu and screwed Charles because he didn't say "don't use bullets, she is immortal".
And that is only one of many plot holes the fans keep trying to self excuse with any means possible. A plot hole is a plot hole and unless they make a remake with you in charge, no matter what you say is unsupported. Plain and simple.
Now excuse me, I have to go check out the latest scientific explainations over Aizen's masterplan and the in-depth strategies in Bleach.

Come on, it's not like Charles was in any hurry. He could get C.C. any time - it's not as if she'd have fled the country and vanished.
You just don't tell your regular underlings about immortals that are part of your Evil Master plan, and while Charles had his Geass for that, he was probably mostly trying to prove to V.V. that he didn't care about Lelouch. He let him live, but as bait - V.V. could easily buy that at this point, as Charles had never shown any undue attachment to anything but Marianne. Lelouch could still have been killed, but Charles didn't care that much - had Lelouch died, C.C. would have given her Code away even more readily, and one way or the other, Ragnarok would haven taken place.
It's a twisted family.

That aside, just because a show doesn't try to be 100% realistic (which, yes, Code Geass definitely isn't), that doesn't mean it isn't trying to convey something deeper. That's a logical fallacy.

[Xander]

Code Geass, like most of other popular modern anime out there, relies on too many coincidences and isn't really the kind of show where the plot was ever meant to be absolutely immune to critical analysis and cynicism. I don't think that means you can't have a reasonable debate about the plot, mind you, it's just not meant to be part of a high level discourse. The creators put some thought into the show, as a whole, but they didn't try to wrap all loose ends or make it a narrative masterpiece.

In other words, you can probably engage in a deconstruction of the entire premise of Code Geass by pointing out real or perceived plot holes and alternate actions that the characters could have taken in order to avoid a lot of unnecessary trouble, just as easily as you could do about the same with Death Note, your average Shonen Jump property, several Gundam series or whatever else. That is a valid exercise, of course, but it also tends to make watching most anime an unending frustration.

The exceptions to this are few and far between. That said, in the end it all comes down to your suspension of disbelief. If it's high enough, very few of those questions actually matter, though you can always play around with them for a bit. If it isn't, well...I would say the conclusion is easy to deduce.

This doesn't mean that some shows aren't objectively better than others, no, but generally they aren't exactly meant to be equivalent to world-class literature.

[Cephei Mordred]

The real problem with Geass is that it was not confusing and plot hole-ish enough.

You think that Evangelion would be so popular today if it was straightforward?

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by Cephei Mordred

The real problem with Geass is that it was not confusing and plot hole-ish enough.

You think that Evangelion would be so popular today if it was straightforward?

Actually, the more allusions, plot holes and vague events a series has, the more debate it raises. But Evangelion was also a deconstruction of the mecha series and quite unique in the way it portraited characters back then. Code Geass is quite mainstream in all its aspects. It also has far more plot holes and far less allusions.

[roriconfan]

I don't self-excuse anything. It is quite obvious to see the overal superiority of one series over the other. All you need to do is not being glued on the pretty cover of the book.

[roriconfan]

Fine, I will use pure strategy like Lelouch and Geass myself to forget this event, and then ride towards the sundown with playboy bunny Kallen, on whom I will also use my charm of Geass to make her fall in love with me.
And if someone disagrees, I will convince him with my genious intelect and Geass him to admit there is nothing wrong here.

[Rising Dragon]

Or you could just do the mature thing and just stop talking about it instead of being derogatory.

[Cephei Mordred]

Fine, I will use pure strategy like Lelouch and Geass myself to forget this event, and then ride towards the sundown with playboy bunny Kallen, on whom I will also use my charm of Geass to make her fall in love with me.
And if someone disagrees, I will convince him with my genious intelect and Geass him to admit there is nothing wrong here.

And then I will use my geass, which has the power of making the target see pretty girls all over the place, and you will end up living a year with your false harem, until some joker who has somehow manifested an anti-geass power comes around and undoes everything. :/

[NinjaYali]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Fine, I will use pure strategy like Lelouch and Geass myself to forget this event, and then ride towards the sundown with playboy bunny Kallen, on whom I will also use my charm of Geass to make her fall in love with me.
And if someone disagrees, I will convince him with my genious intelect and Geass him to admit there is nothing wrong here.

I lol'd

You are an individual with free will. You can think differently as much as you want, but pointing out the faults in such a manner and expect everyone to do an 'epiphany' isn't happening.

Who says I wanted an ephiphany? The point of rants is to express our ideas and how we reacted to this show.

And quite frankly, I will never get why C.G is consider the best thing since sliced cheese. Certainly, it's entertaining in it's own rights but there are too many plotholes and fridge logic in it for me to consider it the greatest achievement in anime as of the last decade. The creators just became too ambitious that in the attempt to make it 'complex' and appeal to everyone they lost the point.

Well, Lelouch didn't have anyone left after Rolo sacrificed himself, so he saw no other purpose for himself to continue living on beyond fixing the world. He was just too keen on finding a fix that also gave him the final exit he was looking for, regardless of whether or not it wouldn't work in reality by all rights.

So what you're telling me is that LeDouche was in a suicidal mood and so decided to come up with such a long-winded plan for suicide in order to go off with a bang?

Hey LeDouche, here's some pointers. Do it like a man. No flashy stunts.