2009-08-16, 17:38 | Link #144 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 47
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Sort of a random thought. Beatrice said once that she would kill Battler and asked him to find out who she was. There has also been the phrase "Beatrice is Love" floating around. Now this happens.
Could all be related. Beatrice is Love, and because of that love Battler will risk (or even be) being killed. Killed because of Beatrice. Killed because of love. Perhaps the think that is causing the killings...the lack of love and/or love blinding Battler to the truth (not being able to accept certain things from family). More things to ponder until December.
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2009-08-16, 17:45 | Link #146 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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It's never been said that "Beatrice is love". What has been said is that "without love, magic cannot be seen."
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2009-08-16, 17:50 | Link #148 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Warwick, RI
Age: 41
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I do think the contradictory nature of it is intentional though. There's just SO many contradictions of this nature, period, that even though I am anti-fantasy for the solution of the murders, I definitely wouldn't say magic doesn't exist in Umineko. I think the conclusion is going to be more complicated than one side triumphing over the other -- I honestly can't see the story concluding satisfactorily otherwise.
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2009-08-16, 18:03 | Link #149 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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The point is Eva was just as easily as obvious of a culprit as Natsuhi was in EP 5. Fact is Battler is afraid. He obviously doesn't want to believe in witches, but he obviously doesn't want to blame anybody for murder. Not everyone can have a happy ending. Higurashi for example. Spoiler for End of Higurashi:
Battler has to learn that he can't be a martyr for happiness. Not everyone gets a happy ending. Even in EP 5. Spoiler for EP 5:
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2009-08-16, 18:30 | Link #150 |
Rokkenjima's Skeptic
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 34
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Hey I've heard some rumours about Battler goin' antagonist on us all, the 'Golden Sorcerer' or something along those lines, anyone got some evidence to back that up?
I'd like to hear your opinions also~. |
2009-08-16, 19:07 | Link #153 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
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That's quite a misleading spoiler summary you have there. You'll give people the wrong impression.
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Spoiler for Roles:
Last edited by Archer; 2009-08-16 at 19:26. |
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2009-08-17, 00:06 | Link #156 | |||||||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 38
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Even when Erika was pressing the point with the Red Truth used with Dlanor, Battler just turns the tide with the Gold Truth.
Even when Battler is still unable to prove with facts that Natsuhi is not the culprit, Battler made Dlanor surrender, advocating that even if Erika has truth, Battler also has his. Quote:
Since Beato is a concept, it is very likely that Meta Battler can "revive" her. Quote:
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The anti fantasy side brutally use it to disable completely Piece-Beato in a very ugly way. In case of Erika and Dlanor, they do not use "real red" because they provide elements that are within the story and the genre: Erika gives facts that cannot be countered and become red, thanks to bern and lambda confirming in red (which can be applied because they "are not" pieces but players). Battler was unable to claim there is that "man of 19 years ago" unless it is one of the 18 already, because Dlanor pinned him down with Knox commandement n°1. Rule n°1 and n°8 prevents a dumb "it happened like this!" without anything relevant which would give such conclusion. Quote:
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In fact, Erika never used the red ever once (except reciting one provided by Bern, to seize her rights as a detective). She is forced to rely on Dlanor, Gertrude, Cornerlia and Bern. This is actually the point where it diverge from "mystery" and "fantasy" elements. Both are aimed to the same thing: truth. Thus, Erika, the "human side" brought things that are later confirmed in red by the fantasy side and even further confirmed with Dlanor. Quote:
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My problem is... if Ryukishi wants a global happy end (everyone except the culprit), it will be helluva hard, considering everyone's backstory. It is extremely depressing, especially for Natsuhi but also Maria/Rosa. Quote:
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Like Sterling said, you cannot consider chiru as "answer" because it is nowhere similar what Kai was to Higurashi.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2009-08-17 at 00:21. |
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2009-08-17, 00:24 | Link #157 | |
~Connoisseur~
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
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2009-08-17, 00:37 | Link #158 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Finally finished reading ep5. I like it, but mainly becuase of the end.
I think there's a spoiler thread for the elements, so I'll just post my thoughts and comments. Spoiler for thoughts & comments:
Spoiler for speculation and early deductions:
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2009-08-17, 00:39 | Link #159 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 38
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Let's review the issue:
1) Krauss: he won so many loser flags that I can only say: he is a moron, period. Honestly, he is a total idiot and is probably the main reason why things turn south in Umineko. All Ushiromiya assets (except the gold) are mortgaged. They have nothing and in 1984-5, they could be kicked out anytime. The only solution for him is when they got the gold, but this part is actually a problem with the culprit (they certainly don't care about the gold, but it is a driving force for the batshit murders) 2) Natsuhi: since Kinzo is in the grave, there is no way for her to have a happy end, unless she finally realize that her delusion is nothing but a mere way to find a "compensation" to her shitty life. I think the only way to fix that is Jessica, and to some extent Krauss and Eva. 3) Jessica: too much linked to what happen with the stupid inheritence. It would require Krauss and Natsuhi's "good end" for hers with Kanon, heck Kanon needs to go forward for this. 4) Eva: If Krauss can relinquish the title of the "head", which IS possible, it would be fine. 5) hideyoshi: money 6) George: should not be a problem 7) Rudolf: money + a matter related to Battler I assume 8) Kyrie: ditto 9) Rosa: Hard mode. Money + Maria + love. And I cannot see her "genuinely" loving Maria anytime. 10) Maria: everything is about Rosa, and if the "evil witch" is defeated, it is very likely her obsession with magic will be left aside. 11) Shannon: see George 12) Kanon: needs to get past the furniture issue 13) Nanjo: money (?) (for his grand daughter) 14) Genji: not hard 15) Gohda: not hard 16) Kumasawa: hard to say 17) Kinzo: impossible in "reality", but possible if his legacy is honored. 18) Battler: truth about his birth (?) 19) Beatrice: exist without screwing Meta Battler victory condition 20) Meta Battler: proving the culprit is not a witch, but also not "human"... (probably a multi chain of culprits). Must also be the one to defeat Beato 21) Erika: proving the culprit is human 22) Lambda: eternal game => impossible and Episode 5 hints that she actually doesn't mind if she loses 23) Bern: Crushing Beato, converge with Battler's objective, but contradict with the means etc. And I believe my list is oversimplifying the headlines.
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2009-08-17, 00:39 | Link #160 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Anyway, what would Battler revive her again? To kill her himself? Seriously, everyone in the Meta-world is very, very fickle. Quote:
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I think it also depends on what you mean by happy ending. For example, for me, as long as the characters manage to get a future in which they can build hope, that's a happy ending.
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