Macross Delta - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

Morality involves both feelings and logic.

Feelings (i.e. empathy) provides the basis for morality, and logic ideally provides a measure of intellectual consistency to morality.

Feelings without logic gives you chaotic laws subject to whimsical changes, but logic without feelings gives you cold laws that might not properly recognize extenuating circumstances, such as the ones involved in Freyja Wion's traitorous actions.

Logically, technically, Freyja Wion is a traitor. Logically, technically, she deserves to die (unless you think traitors should be allowed to live, which isn't particularly logical). If you disagree with that, as I do, then you're left appealing to feelings and empathy, in my opinion.


Honestly, Vallen, I don't think you're in a good position here to crap all over feelings and also criticize Windermere. Windermere's actions do have a certain cold logic to them, but that's the problem, they show no empathy whatsoever for non-Windermereans or even Windermereans facing unusually difficult circumstances. In the specific case of Windermere, the problem isn't a lack of logic, it's a lack of feelings. The problem with the three Winds isn't their lack of intelligence, it's that they show no respect to the feelings and specific circumstances of the defendants.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Thess

It was bad enough in Frontier.

I don't know; it might happen.

After all, in Frontier, Kawamori didn't like the idea of killing Sheryl so he saved her in both versions (TV and movies). The movies had three solutions of their own for this, wherein originally it's harvesting Ranka's organs which could save her, or a surgery for removing her voice box which could only prevent its spread, or a blood transfusion which is only revealed in the final couple of minutes prior to the movie credits. In fact, TV resolution is nicer because it's handled in less than a minute rather than spanning an entire movie of "which cure is best for our beloved characters?"

Of course, I liked she lived, and while writing in Frontier rarely ever fell in the movies, their changing of her possible cure at times sent vibes of the writers in general not knowing which cure is the one to go with in the finale.

So it's possible no one in Kawamori and Co. ever know how to handle those situations wherein wishing a character to live but solve their disease and/or lifespan within logical limits.

And I personally hope Freyja lives; like if Mikumo realizes her abilities and/or song could fix the lifespan issue for Windermere. I mean, if the Star Singer is the priestess of Windermere and Mikumo is the direct copy of her, positively Mikumo could discover if the Star Singer had abilities to prolong the lifespan of Windermere and did not by choice in order to gain their affection or protection (like a god).

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Honestly, Vallen, I don't think you're in a good position here to crap all over feelings and also criticize Windermere. Windermere's actions do have a certain cold logic to them, but that's the problem, they show no empathy whatsoever for non-Windermereans or even Windermereans facing unusually difficult circumstances. In the specific case of Windermere, the problem isn't a lack of logic, it's a lack of feelings. The problem with the three Winds isn't their lack of intelligence, it's that they show no respect to the feelings and specific circumstances of the defendants.

I reject wholeheartedly that Winderemere was acting logically. What Windies are doing is having a desired outcome, then retroactively make up excuses to get what they want as a technicality. There is no logic in their actions, only loopholes. They want things then make up explanations for why. This is the very example of making laws based on feelings.

Was there any possibility of the trial ending in any way other than a death sentence for all three? None, thus there was no logic involved.

Windies WANT the three dead, that's what their feeling told them to do. A logical government would find it useful to keep them prisoner. A stupid feelings base society is one who would just kill them.

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I reject wholeheartedly that Winderemere was acting logically. What Windies are doing is having a desired outcome, then retroactively make up excuses to get what they want as a technicality. There is no logic in their actions, only loopholes. They want things then make up explanations for why. This is the very example of making laws based on feelings.

Nah, they're pretty cold. Their logic is effed up but it's certainly not based on feelings. Notice how they all ignore Bogue, possibly the most emotional of the group?

Was there any possibility of the trial ending in any way other than a death sentence for all three? None

How do you know this?

Windies WANT the three dead, that's what their feeling told them to do. A logical government would find it useful to keep them prisoner. A stupid feelings base society is one who would just kill them.

How do you know this?
Cause no witnesses seems real logical to me. And based on what happened last time invaders (Mirage, Hayate, and Freyja) invaded the, you know, dark dungeon looking place with secret passages and "you fell into the trap" and were taken prisoner, they escaped. So logically, they'd escape again, you know, unless they were stone cold.

[Thess]

Didn't Herman even expressively lament they have to die? At least he didn't want to see Mirage dead.

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by Thess

Didn't Herman even expressively lament they have to die? At least he didn't want to see Mirage dead.

Wouldn't this suggest that there were feelings involved but they decided to ignore them?
Listening to the three wings; they just came off as super logical. "This is true, so this must happen" kind of thing.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I reject wholeheartedly that Winderemere was acting logically.

It's logical to want three of your more troublesome military enemies to be killed. If you imprison them, other enemies might find some way to free them, and then these enemies could trouble you again.

So yes, this is the desired outcome, but there's logical reasons for desiring it. Bogue wants them killed out of pure anger, I'll say that, but I think for the other Windermereans, it's mostly a way to take care of some troublesome loose ends.

What feelings tells us is that morality should involve more than simple practicality and pragmatism.

Was there any possibility of the trial ending in any way other than a death sentence for all three? None, thus there was no logic involved.

Logic doesn't necessarily require multiple possible outcomes. In fact, logic often dictates one particular outcome or course of action.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Logic doesn't necessarily require multiple possible outcomes. In fact, logic often dictates one particular outcome or course of action.

You are not suppose to decide what the outcome is beforehand. That's why it is multiple possible outcomes, you are not suppose to know what is happening until you run through the logic test. If you make assumptions of what you want then you are just pretending to be logical to get what you wanted.

Winderemee want revenge, Windermere want galactic domination, Winderemere want to execute three people. Winderemere want all these things, and then they go through whatever excuse they can come up with to justify it after the fact.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

Wouldn't this suggest that there were feelings involved but they decided to ignore them?

Herman has expressed his personal distaste for a long time ago (since episode 8, actually; he agreed with Freyja about using apples for war). He just puts his duty as soldier over his personal feelings.

Actually, the only one who seems doing what he wants is Roid. Even Bogue has some restraint (because Herman scolds him).

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You are not suppose to decide what the outcome is beforehand. That's why it is multiple possible outcomes, you are not suppose to know what is happening until you run through the logic test. If you make assumptions of what you want then you are just pretending to be logical to get what you wanted.

Winderemee want revenge, Windermere want galactic domination, Winderemere want to execute three people. Winderemere want all these things, and then they go through whatever excuse they can come up with to justify it after the fact.

That is not true. They don't want revenge but justice against NUN. In all of Roids speech it about to get rid of NUN government. The only one who has the motivation to seek revenge is Bogue. Neither Casimir or Hermann are persons who have the traits to seek out revenge.

That three people who entered windermere dominion are judged to be executed is rough, but look at Thailand for example execute people who deal with drugs. or even worse you get jailed if you step on a coin with an imprint of Thailand's royal family. The only one reasonable to execute is basically Freyja, because she sided with the enemy and fights against them. even if her weapon are her songs. But that is cold logic and cold laws.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's logical to want three of your more troublesome military enemies to be killed. If you imprison them, other enemies might find some way to free them, and then these enemies could trouble you again.

It's not logical for Mirage and Hayate, since they are officers and under view of the Geneva Treaties have to be treated as pow. If this would be considered. But this just speaks for them. Freyja on the other hand. Cold spoken when she decided to side with Walküre to fight against the war -which actually made it worse for her - she is doomed to be a traitor against her kin.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

It's not logical for Mirage and Hayate, since they are officers and under view of the Geneva Treaties have to be treated as pow.

Wind presumably didn't sign the Geneva convention, and like I said, under it Hayate and Mirage are war criminals themselves.

[magnuskn]

Actually, the show specifically mentioned their own kind of treaty, the Ormond Treaty. Mirage mentions some of the provisions in it and the Windbags wriggle their asses out of its obligations (which means that they also have signed it in the past) by doing legalistic newspeak.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Actually, the show specifically mentioned their own kind of treaty, the Ormond Treaty. Mirage mentions some of the provisions in it and the Windbags wriggle their asses out of its obligations (which means that they also have signed it in the past) by doing legalistic newspeak.

Different countries different rules. This just means that NUN has the same rights to handle windermere prisoners as windermere handled their prisoners.

[ippus]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Actually, the show specifically mentioned their own kind of treaty, the Ormond Treaty. Mirage mentions some of the provisions in it and the Windbags wriggle their asses out of its obligations (which means that they also have signed it in the past) by doing legalistic newspeak.

Basically the Windermere decided that the main trio aren't being covered by the treaties due to their non-military/ privately owned status. Because of this the trial held in the show is actually a simplified version of their regular judicial system.

As far as the Windermere an motivation and their lack of empathy, I think a lot of it is honestly just suppressed by what they consider their priorities. It's not just a matter of "we want so we get" or "I'm told so I do", the Windermere or at least the knights seem to feel like they need to get things to happen within their lifetime. As they've failed a war before, it becomes all the more important for the current generation to see it through as they are the ones who will remember first hand their losses. The reality is, the rest of the universe can outlive their hatred and they know this, and grow even more bitter about this when none of those they are accusing grievances to are admitting or even just addressing the fact.

If anything the NUNs rewrote the events of the dimensional weapon and even the main trio are refusing any recognition of the fact Wright Immelman has done grievous harm and is at full fault. Instead both Mirage and Freyja argued back when the issue was put forward while all major powers have been silent about Windermere as a whole. While I admit most of the silences are in league with the many gaping holes in the show's plot, the frustration it causes is still relevant IMO.

The fact that Freyja then insulted the revered Winder Singer King by calling his song hollow and empty can only make her look worse in the eyes of the Windermere's. She had no ill intentions but really...who the hell says something like that in that way at your own trial.

Also on hindsight, I'm actually more upset that the judicial system is recognisable at all. The Windermeres like to talk about their runes a great deal and the transferral of feelings and understanding, yet their judicial system doesn't make use of this...? They have literal lie detectors and feeling transfers in their hair and instead Heinz wants to just talk...? What a waste of traits.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by ippus

As far as the Windermere an motivation and their lack of empathy, I think a lot of it is honestly just suppressed by what they consider their priorities. It's not just a matter of "we want so we get" or "I'm told so I do", the Windermere or at least the knights seem to feel like they need to get things to happen within their lifetime.

Good point. I agree.

If anything the NUNs rewrote the events of the dimensional weapon and even the main trio are refusing any recognition of the fact Wright Immelman has done grievous harm and is at full fault.

Well, should Hayate be punished for the crimes of his father? Is it really Hayate's place to apologize for his father?

I'll admit that if I was in Hayate's shoes, I'd probably have apologized profusely for my father's actions in the hopes that it would earn me a more lenient sentence. But for good or for ill, that's just not Hayate.

The fact that Freyja then insulted the revered Winder Singer King by calling his song hollow and empty can only make her look worse in the eyes of the Windermere's. She had no ill intentions but really...who the hell says something like that in that way at your own trial.

There's many things Hayate and Freyja have in common. One major thing is that they're both honest to a fault. Neither has even an ounce of guile in them. They both tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves, and they just don't have it in them to fake things or hide their emotions much. I find this appealing in some ways, but yes, it's very reckless and sometimes bad for basic self-preservation.

Alto and Sheryl are definitely the more complex and more adult-like characters.

As much as I like Freyja, there's episodes I wish she had 10 to 20 more IQ points, and hence was somewhat more clever/eloquent. Still, I find it pretty amusing how she insulted Heinz by simple honestly and likely no ill-intention at all.

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by Thess

Herman has expressed his personal distaste for a long time ago (since episode 8, actually; he agreed with Freyja about using apples for war). He just puts his duty as soldier over his personal feelings.

Actually, the only one who seems doing what he wants is Roid. Even Bogue has some restraint (because Herman scolds him).

My point was logic was used rather than feelings to determine the sentence.
Feelings never seemed to get in the way of their logic, not the other way around.
I don't think it is a stretch to call Roid insane. What he wants and what he believes he does not question and morality doesn't seem to exist to him.
Well, it sounds like you agree to a degree.

Originally Posted by ippus

She had no ill intentions but really...who the hell says something like that in that way at your own trial.

A person who sees the big picture, that's who. Better than Hayate's blind faith.
If she didn't strike something in Heinz when she said that, I don't what will. Dying, maybe.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Actually, the show specifically mentioned their own kind of treaty, the Ormond Treaty. Mirage mentions some of the provisions in it and the Windbags wriggle their asses out of its obligations (which means that they also have signed it in the past) by doing legalistic newspeak.

Yes, but we don't know what that treaty actually says. Just because Mirage tried to claim its protection doesn't mean they're actually entitled to it.

To clarify, I'm not saying the Wind are morally justified in anything they do. I am saying the legal status is murky, and that by our own laws, Hayate, Mirage and Freyja's status as POWs is at best questionable. I do not think the Geneva Convention would protect them. A decent legal system would consider their sham trial abhorrent, but that's up to each country to decide what to do with what nowadays we call terrorists.

[Convoy]

Those Windermerean judges need to have their runes slowly and painfully blowtorched off. What kind of legal system treats alleged traitors and foreign enemies in war with no trial, defense, or anything but refuses to classify them as war combatants?



Though on that note, the U.S. has done this kind of shit in real life, hasn't it?

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Convoy

Though on that note, the U.S. has done this kind of shit in real life, hasn't it?

Been arguing how Delta is copying real life wars for about 2 weeks now... Either no one realizes or doesn't care because blah blah it's anime and it's supposed to be nonsensical or bullshit (which is bull in itself because even anime could tackle sensitive subjects like this).

Seriously, the parallels for Pearl Harbor and The Twin Towers is so high in Delta.