Railgun Manga - Dream Ranker Arc Discussion / Poll

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by Fellen

There's seems to be a disconnect between the mental and physical ages of ALL the level fives. Accel has seen some shit and acts more mature than most people his age and then there's Mikoto and Gunha...

well, level5's have a fanmade excuse that their personla reality affects their selfs and makes them instable, more power = being more instable (mind-wise)

but other chars are the same:
komoe sensei is a great example

or our beloved styil-sama? this guy is 14
im not counting kanzaki because she has her "mature" moments while i dont see such times by komoe and styil

i think if it is revealed that aogami is #6 than we will also see his "true" self, like: the aogami until now was "fake" and the real personality belongs to the "crazy" level5-niveau

[GDB]

Styil is 14? Holy hell, I thought he was like 19-20.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Misaki confirmed Middle school year 2, people can stop the silly speculation.

Originally Posted by GDB

Styil is 14? Holy hell, I thought he was like 19-20.

The legend goes that originally Kamachi let it be because he wanted exaggerate how much the physical difference is between Japanese and Western teenager. It's only later that he realized that Haimura might have over done it...

...I recall an interview about it but not the exact details.

[ACertainStark]

Originally Posted by GDB

Styil is 14? Holy hell, I thought he was like 19-20.

From the wikia:

Stiyl's design has changed little since the first preliminary design of his character, with little additions such as skull strap for his cellphone to match his design. A common theme that Kiyotaka Haimura went for Stiyl and Kaori is that ever since their introduction in Volume 1, the gap between age and appearance in the magic side characters has been much greater than in the science side characters. When he read the first draft of Volume 1, he came with the impression that it was the story of children rebelling against the reasoning of adults. Stating that:"...I thought Kamijou would have seen Stiyl and Kanzaki as adults that used reasonings and principles that a child would refuse to accept." Haimura believed that the Index novels would go on for so long, as such he went with the designs that did not match their age, and by volume 7 Haimura began regretting his decision.

Basically miscommunication, lol.

[Miraluka]

Well, even if she is confirmed to be 2nd. year, it doesn't rules out if her age is real and not just cheated by Misaki for "reasons" just like Tsuchimikado did.

[zibi88]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Misaki confirmed Middle school year 2, people can stop the silly speculation.

Nothing is confirmed... becouse she made herself as 2nd grader doesnt mean she really is one... she can manipulate memories and people, she could have made herself 2nd grade while her real age could allow her to go to high school. We just dont know in her case what grade she is becouse of her power.

Current girl only school suits her as she is surounded with high level espers which she can control if anything happens...and mostly feels in her place there while she could have felt insecure around new people.

Even misaka asked misaki if she really is a middle schooler (her breasts dont match to her age from misaka's perspective) while misaki answered "who knows". With her power she can be like forever a 2nd grade :P till she makes up with touma and goes to his school xD

[Chaos2Frozen]

Give it up, you're both scrapping the bottom of the barrel here... And for no reasons.

I mean literally, there's like no reason to ever make her lie about her age just to stay in Middle School.... For the lolz is not a reason.

Originally Posted by zibi88

Current girl only school suits her as she is surounded with high level espers which she can control if anything happens...and mostly feels in her place there while she could have felt insecure around new people.

Tokiwadai isn't even the top school (top 5 i believe), there are other schools with better resource and espers.

This insecure girl who calls herself Queen and proudly makes a public speech in front of thousands of people at the daihaisensai opening?

Originally Posted by zibi88

Even misaka asked misaki if she really is a middle schooler (her breasts dont match to her age from misaka's perspective) while misaki answered "who knows". With her power she can be like forever a 2nd grade :P till she makes up with touma and goes to his school xD

That's a stretch and overly complicated.

It makes more sense if she fakes being a high school student because we KNOW of a reason she would want to be in high school- a certain spiky hair boy. There's no known reason to fake being in middle school.

[Miraluka]

Well, Then is a NO for both sides until proven otherwise. No point when all is speculation.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

to be fair, im not really ok with the explanation of the fighting pattern but there is bigger stuff so that i can safely ignore this (like a normal human surviving the torture)

btw, why are you bothering yourself with Level_Seven?

Because I'm always blind at reading user names and posts. But I suppose the SoD depends on who you are. Also, does anyone else find it amusing that one chapter added this many pages to the thread?

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by dniv

Also, does anyone else find it amusing that one chapter added this many pages to the thread?

amusing? yes

understandable? yes

[Doom_Paperclip]

Not sure why anyone would consider the nature of Mental Out to be a mystery. Isn't it just an extremely focused version of Electromaster, specialized in reading and manipulating the electrical signals in people's brains instead of all electromagnetic phenomena in general?

The fact that an electric field can block it is telling. Plus, there is that one scene near the climax of the Level Upper arc where Mikoto manages to see Harumi's memories. Sure, it was a one-off thing that happened under very special circumstances, but it proved that you can read minds with electric powers alone and that being the case, I see no reason why they shouldn't be enough to control minds as well.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

Not sure why anyone would consider the nature of Mental Out to be a mystery. Isn't it just an extremely focused version of Electromaster, specialized in reading and manipulating the electrical signals in people's brains instead of all electromagnetic phenomena in general?

The fact that an electric field can block it is telling. Plus, there is that one scene near the climax of the Level Upper arc where Mikoto manages to see Harumi's memories. Sure, it was a one-off thing that happened under very special circumstances, but it proved that you can read minds with electric powers alone and that being the case, I see no reason why they shouldn't be enough to control minds as well.

Th question then is why Electromasters can't train in order to do Mental Out like stuff and vice versa. I feel like AC would want them to be able to have both powers if it were really that easy.

[Marcus H.]

The fact that an electric field can block it is telling. Plus, there is that one scene near the climax of the Level Upper arc where Mikoto manages to see Harumi's memories. Sure, it was a one-off thing that happened under very special circumstances, but it proved that you can read minds with electric powers alone and that being the case, I see no reason why they shouldn't be enough to control minds as well.

The problem is that there are so many electrical impulses that Electromasters need to keep in check to actually interact with a person's brain that they'd end up sacrificing their own brain processing power. Accelerator was also capable of doing this, take note, but he's literally a sitting duck when he did it.

[silverexorcist]

We'd have to ask someone who deals with physics more closely, but do brain signals and the nervous system fall under 'electromagnetic phenomenon'? If so, then Misaka should be able to reproduce Mental Out. But I'm convinced that she'd just fry the human brain the instant she tries. Plus, NT7 teased a bit of the details of Shokuhou's power that implied that there's more concept to it than we realize.

Originally Posted by GDB

If telepathy as a whole is nothing but electricity used in another way, then there's no reason that Mikoto couldn't be a telepath as well. The Sister network isn't really telepathy, but more like Wi-Fi or the like. They use electric signals to communicate, but it isn't true telepathy.

The sisters literally communicate by manipulating electric signals that match their identical brain patterns, as Misaka pointed out earlier in the manga. So yeah, it's kind of a mix between Wifi and telepathy, I suppose. There's no denying the fact that Mental Out had a major effect on the sisters, able to unlock Misaka's hidden potential and even grant a user of Mental Out access to the Misaka Network, to an extent, which was the entire premise of Gensei's plan to gain control of Exterior. There's a connection between Railgun and Mental Out, we just don't know the extent of it.

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

The problem is that there are so many electrical impulses that Electromasters need to keep in check to actually interact with a person's brain that they'd end up sacrificing their own brain processing power. Accelerator was also capable of doing this, take note, but he's literally a sitting duck when he did it.

This is true. However, the difference between Misaki and Accelerator seems to be more like Accelerator was trying to control the entirety of Last Order's brain. With Misaki, it seems like all she is doing is adding and taking away data from the brain. Granted, I find that would be pretty burdensome to do with EM fields. However, we have seen Mikoto reflecting Misaki's power with a violent electrical reaction. So, there is evidence that Misaki's Mental Out is highly EM Field-based.

[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by dniv

Th question then is why Electromasters can't train in order to do Mental Out like stuff and vice versa. I feel like AC would want them to be able to have both powers if it were really that easy.

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

The problem is that there are so many electrical impulses that Electromasters need to keep in check to actually interact with a person's brain that they'd end up sacrificing their own brain processing power. Accelerator was also capable of doing this, take note, but he's literally a sitting duck when he did it.

The way I see it, Mental Out and Electromaster are different applications of the same principle. Both rely on the manipulation of electromagnetic phenomena, but they make use of them for different ends. As such, their brains are highly optimized to perform their respective tasks, to the point where imitating each other would be very difficult, if not impossible.

Another example of this duality in the Raildexverse would be the distinction between Offense Armor and Bomber Lance. Both rely on the manipulation of nitrogen, but they do so very differently, the former to defend and the latter to attack. It is possible that both patterns cannot be made to fit into one human brain or are otherwise incompatible for some reason.

A more mundane example would be that pro basketball players are usually not expert surgeons, despite the fact that both need a set of working arms. Theoretically a pro basketball player could perform surgery and a surgeon could play basketball against professional players, it is not physically impossible, but neither is likely to be very good at it. It takes so much time and energy just to become one of those things that becoming both at once is highly unlikely.

Originally Posted by silverexorcist

We'd have to ask someone who deals with physics more closely, but do brain signals and the nervous system fall under 'electromagnetic phenomenon'? If so, then Misaka should be able to reproduce Mental Out. But I'm convinced that she'd just fry the human brain the instant she tries. Plus, NT7 teased a bit of the details of Shokuhou's power that implied that there's more concept to it than we realize.

Yes, brain signals are electromagnetic phenomena. They rely on the movement of positively charged ions through neuronal axons as opposed to negatively charged electrons through metal wires, but the underlying principle is the same. There is a wealth of literature proving that you can stimulate neurons using artificial, low intensity, currents.

This isn't pseudoscience or science fiction. The research is advancing by leaps and bounds. Brain implants that can relieve the symptoms of Parkinson's disease with electricity, for instance, have existed for years. Very recently, brain implants have been developed that have allowed lab rats to communicate with each other through rudimentary telepathy (look it up; it's crazy stuff).

The sisters literally communicate by manipulating electric signals that match their identical brain patterns, as Misaka pointed out earlier in the manga. So yeah, it's kind of a mix between Wifi and telepathy, I suppose. There's no denying the fact that Mental Out had a major effect on the sisters, able to unlock Misaka's hidden potential and even grant a user of Mental Out access to the Misaka Network, to an extent, which was the entire premise of Gensei's plan to gain control of Exterior. There's a connection between Railgun and Mental Out, we just don't know the extent of it.

I conclude that Electromaster and Mental Out are the same type of power, optimized for different tasks. There really isn't any reason I can find to assume differently. The next arc won't feature any explanations for Misaki's ability because no such explanation is needed, anymore than we need explanations for Aero Hand or Float Dial beyond what we've been already been given. If any such explanations had really been necessary, I see no reason why they wouldn't have been given during the previous arc.

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

Yes, brain signals are electromagnetic phenomena. They rely on the movement of positively charged ions through neuronal axons as opposed to negatively charged electrons through metal wires, but the underlying principle is the same. There is a wealth of literature proving that you can stimulate neurons using artificial, low intensity, currents.

This isn't pseudoscience or science fiction. The research is advancing by leaps and bounds. Brain implants that can relieve the symptoms of Parkinson's disease with electricity, for instance, have existed for years. Very recently, brain implants have been developed that have allowed lab rats to communicate with each other through rudimentary telepathy (look it up; it's crazy stuff).

Let me point out, however, that this research is still developing. It's not exactly at the stage where we can do something complex to the brain like completely alter emotions and what not. However, there is research using Electroencephalography and whatnot that there is a measurable and visible effect from exposing the brain to certain voltages and frequencies. Heck, my professor who taught my biomedical instrumentation course is focused a lot on this type of research.

[silverexorcist]

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

I conclude that Electromaster and Mental Out are the same type of power, optimized for different tasks. There really isn't any reason I can find to assume differently. The next arc won't feature any explanations for Misaki's ability because no such explanation is needed, anymore than we need explanations for Aero Hand or Float Dial beyond what we've been already been given. If any such explanations had really been necessary, I see no reason why they wouldn't have been given during the previous arc.

Hold on, that's a hasty assumption. Looking at what was revealed in NT7, there's definitely more, involving mental boundaries and the inability to manipulate animals. Her ability can be used as the basis to understand how all telepathy works in Academy City and all level 5s have powers that are still being intensively research (we're still learning about what Accelerator's powers can and can't do). I think we'll definitely learn more if she keeps showing up, since we were never actually given a proper explanation, nor was there necessarily a reason to do so in the Daihasesai Arc.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

A more mundane example would be that pro basketball players are usually not expert surgeons, despite the fact that both need a set of working arms. Theoretically a pro basketball player could perform surgery and a surgeon could play basketball against professional players, it is not physically impossible, but neither is likely to be very good at it. It takes so much time and energy just to become one of those things that becoming both at once is highly unlikely.

That's... not quite the same at all. That's only looking at a very broad "necessity". A better example that goes against your theory is a basketball player playing football. They're both sports requiring a lot of skill and athleticism. The reason this works against you, however, is that there are actually quite a few former college basketball players who play in the NFL as Tight Ends.

Originally Posted by silverexorcist

Hold on, that's a hasty assumption. Looking at what was revealed in NT7, there's definitely more, involving mental boundaries and the inability to manipulate animals.

This is a good point as well.

[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by Hiss13

Let me point out, however, that this research is still developing. It's not exactly at the stage where we can do something complex to the brain like completely alter emotions and what not. However, there is research using Electroencephalography and whatnot that there is a measurable and visible effect from exposing the brain to certain voltages and frequencies. Heck, my professor who taught my biomedical instrumentation course is focused a lot on this type of research.

Hence my use of the word "rudimentary". It's still amazing though. Brain-brain interfaces exist and will only get better over time.

In any case, my point is that science has proven you can analyze and manipulate the brain with electromagnetism. The reason we cannot do so with a high degree of control is not because we lack the technology, but because we don't yet know how the brain works well enough. AC, on the other hand, being 20 years ahead, has obviously sorted out all those details since they were able to make something like Testament a reality.

Originally Posted by silverexorcist

Hold on, that's a hasty assumption. Looking at what was revealed in NT7, there's definitely more, involving mental boundaries and the inability to manipulate animals. Her ability can be used as the basis to understand how all telepathy works in Academy City and all level 5s have powers that are still being intensively research (we're still learning about what Accelerator's powers can and can't do). I think we'll definitely learn more if she keeps showing up, since we were never actually given a proper explanation, nor was there necessarily a reason to do so in the Daihasesai Arc.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. She sets boundaries for her powers because they are hard to control otherwise. People have enough problems sorting out their own minds without having to worry about those of others. This is probably doubly true for Espers, who've had their brains actively messed with.

As for the animal thing, this is because Mental Out is probably optimized for use on humans. The minds of animals are very, very different and wouldn't react in the same way to stimuli. There are Espers in AC who are specialized in interacting with animals, like that one girl in the three legged race who could manipulate hamsters, or that other girl who could extract information from cats, but they are likewise unable to manipulate humans.

It may have been hasty for me to claim we won't get more explanations on Misaki's powers, but I seriously doubt it works through any other means than electromagnetic manipulation of the brain. I'll repeat myself here, I really don't see any evidence that suggests otherwise.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by GDB

That's... not quite the same at all. That's only looking at a very broad "necessity".

Sorry for cutting out the rest of your post. I just want to point out that electromagnetism is broad. We're talking about one of the four fundamental forces which govern interactions between everything in the universe. Two of them, if you count the fact that electromagnetic forces and weak nuclear forces are both just manifestations of one electroweak force. If anything, the example which you followed up with is too narrow.