Macross Delta - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Real question is if Windermere even have option of thinking long-term, because they apparently deals with some matters that doesn't give them enough leasure to take it easy.

They could have asked for help.

Yes, I do realize its a blow to their dignity, but when considering long term consequences, its probably their best option.

Besides, the only reason they are at this state is because they F up.

- Tak

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

From what I see, only military personnel are mind-controlled. Civilians looks just fine and they get to continue their everyday lives somewhat normally. That's a huge deal. Probably more then we could ever understand, considering most of us have never experienced the reality of war first hand.

Well at least until the Windemere need more cannon fodder, and use Var syndrome to engage in some mass conscription. It's for all the Cat People's own good that Windemere turn them all into obedient human shields, honest!


I'm personally very skeptical that Windemere will be able to maintain peace on the planets they've conquered. Taking out the military doesn't preclude organized resistance developing later. The situation isn't too bad on Voldor right now, but what happens when they start to suffer economically from being cut off from the NUNS and start to blame Windemere? I don't think the planet of apple orchards and condescending aristocrats can make up the difference of what the NUNS materially offered Voldor (Notice that Roid basically shrugged off all economic concerns from the Voldor leader). And the whole zombie enslaver thing is surely a sore point to.


Based on what we've seen of Windemere so far ("All the times we caused Var Syndrome riots was A-Okay!"), how do you think they'd react to an insurgency developing on one of these planets? With measured restraint? Or would some pompous kid like Bogue order the mind controlled var soldiers to go on an unrestrained killing spree as retaliation? Or start mass enslaving the general populace?

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Or start mass enslaving the general populace?

Well according to this episode they've already banned the sell of local Voldor produce in favor of Windemere apples so we all know what the next step is if the civilians start to resist.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

There's nothing restrained about indiscriminate usage of weaponized Var Syndrome. Especially given that there's pretty high chances that a lot of these high casualty Vars outbreaks happened on the predominantly non-human worlds that the Windemere ostensibly want to "liberate". Maybe what happened on Windemere was horrific, but that hardly gives them A Blanke Cheque to go and inflict terrible suffering on innocent bystanders.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that's probably not a big conciliation for the tens of thousands of people who probably died every time a military garrison went berserk during the alpha and beta testing.

Spoiler for Just a test:

I'd also like to note that despite it involving less bloodshed during conquest, using mind control to carry out a long term occupation is rather horrific. The planet Voldor isn't likely to voluntarily accept Windemere rule any time soon, so does that mean Windemere plans to keep Voldor soldiers as involuntary slave soldiers for the next couple of decades? Is crying catgirl going to grow up with her father as a walking vegetable? This all comes off as rather existentially terrifying.

All of this. Too bad we can't give cookies anymore.

And I imagine that Windermere apples will soon become very unpopular in the galaxy.

BTW, it's more than ironic that the Windpassers were complaining in their declaration of war about "unequal treaties" when they now establish forced monopolies on their biggest export.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that's probably not a big conciliation for the tens of thousands of people who probably died every time a military garrison went berserk during the alpha and beta testing.

Tens of thousand people is a very low figure when you talk about planetary wars and from Windermere's perspective their enemies have killed millions on their own planet.

I'm not saying that I consider morally right what Windermere has done but from a pure utalitarian point of view their system is certainly the one that causes less casualties by a large degree.

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

The planet Voldor isn't likely to voluntarily accept Windemere rule any time soon, so does that mean Windemere plans to keep Voldor soldiers as involuntary slave soldiers for the next couple of decades? Is crying catgirl going to grow up with her father as a walking vegetable? This all comes off as rather existentially terrifying.

These are all questions we don't really have an answer about. You are assuming the worst case scenario and judging Windermere upon something that they haven't done yet.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Hhhmm... would I rather be dead or essentially a mind-controlled zombie forced to support my people's new alien overlords? There's probably a lot of people that would choose "dead" here, and probably a lot of others that would need to think long and hard about it.

The number of people that would rather be mind controlled are probably going to be a lot more when you remember that VAR infection isn't something permanent (death is).

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What Windermere is doing might be cleaner and less bloody than more conventional conquests, but let's not pretend it doesn't have its own serious ethical issues.

It does have ethical issues, but killing millions of people does too. The point here is not to judge whether Windermere's actions are just and perfectly clean but if the alternative would be better or worse.

So let's look at it from the opposite perspective.
Suppose you want to start a war which you believe it is right. Unless you are an extremist pacifist you certainly agree that in certain cases war is necessary.

Now suppose you have two options.

1) You can wage war in a conventional way which will likely result in millions of deaths on both sides.

2) You can mind control your enemies' armies, which would let you conquer entire planets without bloodshed. The best part is that the mind control is not permanent, people affected can return to normality once the situation is stabilized.

Which one would you choose?

And Tak before you point out that Windermere doesn't really have option 1, I know, but they would still choose option 2 if they had, don't you think so?


Now to clarify, I believe Windermere is in the wrong here, but that's more because their reason to wage war to begin war is probably wrong. I don't believe that NUN is the evil empire they think it is, and I don't believe it is NUN who used that dimensional bomb on their planet.

But if I believed all that, which is what the aerial knights do, then I wouldn't really consider their actions to be an absolute evil.

Well... except for that part when we learn that they consider killing an enemy in battle a great honor, rather than a sad necessity.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Arya

Yeah, I had the same reaction, I was trying to be openminded due to the meta expectation the genre/writing usually brings along, specifically that usually what is shown is not what it seems. But they went too far for that.
The only thing that can be taken back is that Windermerean megane boy (Roid?) was playing along not denying to have used that mass murder weapon to use it as a deterrent (as, better being seen as a potential mass murderer if your aim is keep in check an entire planet).
If it was NUN to have used it I would expect a more explicit rage from almost everyone, and also not a no-kill policy.

Fact is for some reason I can't shake the idea that the show will not blame the windermere for its entirely, but something happened that pulled the trigger.

But the ultimate fact is that you don't make cry a cute kitty kid!!!

I am pretty sure Hayate made some cute little sister/brother cry just episode ago...

Originally Posted by Tak

They could have asked for help.

Yes, I do realize its a blow to their dignity, but when considering long term consequences, its probably their best option.

Besides, the only reason they are at this state is because they F up.

- Tak

Oh, I didn't thought about that. Well if option is fight enemy for (possibly) sake of self-preservation or submit own selves to them for same reason. I would call it pretty tough choice.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Oh, I didn't thought about that. Well if option is fight enemy for (possibly) sake of self-preservation or submit own selves to them for same reason. I would call it pretty tough choice.

They were fighting against what they saw as an unequal treaty, not genocide. There are historical parallels for this, btw.

- Tak

[Tenzen12]

Unequal treaties are just part of issue at best, Either way I doubt anyone thinks NUN is going genocide on Wind kingdom.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Unequal treaties are just part of issue at best, Either way I doubt anyone thinks NUN is going genocide on Wind kingdom.

Well, I can't wait to see what happens when their dimension barrier and Var fail on them.

I am due some schadenfreude.

- Tak

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The number of people that would rather be mind controlled are probably going to be a lot more when you remember that VAR infection isn't something permanent (death is).

How do you know how long the VAR infection will continue for? Who's to say that Windermere will ever let these military officers return to their normal lives?

They may well keep them infected with VAR for the full duration of the war, and then, when they're no longer necessary, simply kill them. After all, if you leave them alive and mentally restored, they may well want to get revenge on Windermere for their period of mental enslavement.

Or Windermere may keep them infected with VAR permanently (until they just die from old age) to be a permanent occupying force.

Both of these ideas are quite plausible.

Maybe Windermere will be more humane and merciful, we can hope for it. But it's not something I'd feel comfortable counting on.

But if I believed all that, which is what the aerial knights do, then I wouldn't really consider their actions to be an absolute evil.

Well, the aerial knights themselves may be somewhat forgivable. They may be getting mislead by their government. So I don't necessarily consider the aerial knights evil. And I certainly wouldn't consider your average Windermere citizen evil.

[Tenzen12]

Prince is going break soon, no Heinz no Var.

Originally Posted by Tak

Well, I can't wait to see what happens when their dimension barrier and Var fail on them.

I am due some schadenfreude.

- Tak

Well, that's just matter of time.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

How do you know how long the VAR infection will continue for? Who's to say that Windermere will ever let these military officers return to their normal lives?

I don't know. But insofar as the possibility exist that they are not planning to keep them as mindless slaves forever, I'll suspend my judgement of whether they truly are that evil.

Of course I'm open to the possibility that they might be going for that, I'm not completely excluding it, but in that case the King would need to be either unaware of what VAR is doing, retarded, or be a colossal hypocrite since according to him they are "liberating" those planets.

Then again I must admit the claim that they are the true heirs of the protoculture because they were created last, really reeks of the same baseless self-entitlement that characterized Nazists. But that's Roid who came up with the theory. If there's anyone that strikes me as villain in this whole situation it's him.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Prince is going break soon, no Heinz no Var.

I wonder what will happen then. It seems that the first VAR outbreaks weren't caused by Heinz's singing. This means that VAR outbreaks will still happen without Heinz, but the affected people would just go on a rampage without control.
The VAR affected soldiers currently under Windermere's control would probably start just doing that with catastrophic consequences.

Yeah... it's a time bomb which could explode anytime, and Walkure can't be on several planets at the same time to save the day.

[ReddyRedWolf]

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...ionWeapons.php

The Operation And Restrictions Of Dimension Weapons
Its thought that the first combat that used an especially large quantity of MDE Dimension Weapons was the large-scale battle of 2059 between the Macross Frontier Fleet and the Vajra (the Macross Galaxy Fleet). In this battle, the tremendous pressure of Dimension Weapons was displayed, as the VF squadrons of the New Unified Forces, who escorted the fleet, and the civilian military provider S.M.S. were equipped with MDE - in order to oppose the Vajra, who had acquired a resistance to reaction weapons -, and used them to crush the Vajra.
Due to their power, usage restrictions similar to those for reaction weapons were established for Dimension Weapons - especially DE and MDE -, by the New Unified Government. Also, severe restrictions were imposed on the harvesting, distribution, and possession of fold quartz, which was indispensable for the production of Dimension Weapons.

Caption: Although the power itself of the Heavy Quantum Reaction Gun was great, its usage restrictions weren't severe, as it appears to have been treated merely as a large output beam gun.

Caption: The ownership of the Super Fold Booster was recognized to be by some of the businesses, such as the L.A.I. Co., as Fold Quartz was essential to its development.

Here is what I think happened. With the advent of Fold Quartz based technology Windermere was probably thinking like Leon Mishima those who have monopoly on Fold Quartz would become an economic and military super power. Meanwhile at the core region Grace blew up Gaul 4 and Frontier started to make their own MDE. When the NUNG finally got details and survived a Vajra invasion they put a restrictions on distribution, sale of Fold Quartz.

Windermere sees it as an Unequal Treaty as restrictions on Fold Quartz puts a kibosh on their ambitions. Their only other export is well apples.

So they had a temper tantrum with a revolution and just to prove their point as they are horrendously outgunned used a Mini-Dimension Eater on Carlisle.

Now their planet is dying. They are looking at an extinction event. All the good planets in the cluster is already occupied so they come up with a mind control scheme using Protoculture ruins.

[Tak]

If that is true, then I am seriously, seriously going to enjoy my schadenfreude so much more. Really can't be less sympathetic at that point.

Cmon Wind, make us like you, even for a little bit! Yeesh, the crap we are piling on Wind had pretty much turned them against any hope for redemption, which will only worsen if we don't get something soon.

- Tak

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Tens of thousand people is a very low figure when you talk about planetary wars and from Windermere's perspective their enemies have killed millions on their own planet.

I'm not saying that I consider morally right what Windermere has done but from a pure utalitarian point of view their system is certainly the one that causes less casualties by a large degree.

Even if you accept the Windemere's desire for revenge to be legitimate, it does seem a bit selfish on their end to drag other races into their conflict with the humans, even if they were trying to minimize casualties. Unless the Voldor involved themselves significantly in the war (given the level of independence that a lot of the NUNS worlds have, this doesn't seem to be a given), should it really be any of their business what grievances the Windemere have against the NUNS?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

These are all questions we don't really have an answer about. You are assuming the worst case scenario and judging Windermere upon something that they haven't done yet.

The Windemere are perfectly willing to inflict substantial civilian casualties in pursuit of their greater objectives, and are currently maintaining control of the occupied planets by the implicit threat of violence from their army of remorseless zombie robot soldiers. What do you think they'd do if they had to deal with a serious insurgency or popular uprising?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well... except for that part when we learn that they consider killing an enemy in battle a great honor, rather than a sad necessity.

This is ultimately why I can't find myself willing to excuse Windemere's behavior. The idea that they're reluctant utilitarians falls completely flat in the face of the fact that they clearly think all this warfare is damned glorious, and so far none of the Aerial knights have shown any regret about how they've been forced to do some of the things they've done. It doesn't paint a very flattering picture of the Windemere military overall. There's not much respectable about a warrior caste that doesn't even make pretense of wanting to stay their hand against the helpless on general principle.


edit: I think t people would cut the Windemere nobility more slack if we saw a bit more of stuff like this among their ranks.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/0rxN2iYYCPU

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[Tak]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

edit: I think t people would cut the Windemere nobility more slack if we saw a bit more of stuff like this among their ranks.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/0rxN2iYYCPU

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Well, the Wind did a variation of that, and blamed it on the NUNs.

- - - - -

In the original LoGH, outside of a few key individuals, almost nobody knew about Reinhardt's involvement in allowing the attack to happen. Later on, Reinhardt simply used the incident to further justify his actions against old Imperial nobles.

- Tak

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Then again I must admit the claim that they are the true heirs of the protoculture because they were created last, really reeks of the same baseless self-entitlement that characterized Nazists.

That's also pretty much how I took it. To me, it definitely had a racial supremacist vibe to it. And that sort of stuff is very concerning, and can easily lead to the supremacist groups horribly mistreating other sentient beings.

But I guess Episode 8 could be suggestive here. I could honestly understand them being a bit harsh in their treatment of Freyja, as they view her as a traitor. But how they treat Hayate and Mirage may say a lot about how they view other peoples.

But that's Roid who came up with the theory. If there's anyone that strikes me as villain in this whole situation it's him.

True. But how much do the rest of the Windermere government and soldiers buy into Roid's theory?

That might be a key question going forward.

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by Tak

They were fighting against what they saw as an unequal treaty, not genocide. There are historical parallels for this, btw.

- Tak

I get the impression unfair trade treaties probably aren't the reason the Wind Kingdom is fighting, and Roid is just playing up that angle in an attempt to win the support of other planets in the cluster.

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

This is ultimately why I can't find myself willing to excuse Windemere's behavior. The idea that they're reluctant utilitarians falls completely flat in the face of the fact that they clearly think all this warfare is damned glorious, and so far none of the Aerial knights have shown any regret about how they've been forced to do some of the things they've done. It doesn't paint a very flattering picture of the Windemere military overall. There's not much respectable about a warrior caste that doesn't even make pretense of wanting to stay their hand against the helpless on general principle.

Historically kills have been a huge status symbol among fighter pilots. I don't think the knights enjoying aerial duels and wanting to decisively smash their enemies necessarily means they can't view the shadier aspects of the plan they're acting in support of as necessary evils.

As for their apparent lack of regret for the civilian casualties that plan has caused, yes, they could probably show more remorse for that. But I can see why people who believe that their enemies killed millions of their people and f---ed their planet might shrug at their own plan causing a comparatively small number of civilian casualties.

I'm not saying the Aerial Knights are in the right, but most of them don't seem like iredeemable monsters to me. Though Bogue does seem rather bloodthirsty.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Tak

Well, the Wind did a variation of that, and blamed it on the NUNs.

- - - - -

In the original LoGH, outside of a few key individuals, almost nobody knew about Reinhardt's involvement in allowing the attack to happen. Later on, Reinhardt simply used the incident to further justify his actions against old Imperial nobles.

- Tak

The key point is that none of the Empire viewpoint characters who were in the know about the matter pretended it wasn't a monstrous thing to do, or that there was an ounce of honor in doing it. That latter point is an especially major deal in understanding their reactions to the event. Reinhardt has a strong sense of martial valor, so so leaving those people to die gnaws at him. Oberstein in contrast can live with the idea that it is an honor-less action, because he detests the notion of treating something as horrible as war as an honorable affair. It's a level of self-reflection that we haven't seen on the part of the Windemere so far.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But I guess Episode 8 could be suggestive here. I could honestly understand them being a bit harsh in their treatment of Freyja, as they view her as a traitor. But how they treat Hayate and Mirage may say a lot about how they view other peoples.

Honestly the only one I would bet on treating them with any dignity would be Helman Cross. He's the only Knight we've seen so far who I think has shown much dignity or wisdom. I'm sorta interested in seeing how Helman would react to finding out who Hayate and Mirage were. Out of all the Wind Knights, I think he's the only one who would recognize the tragedy of leading Uroh into his death trying to kill one of them.


Heck. Maybe we can even get a scene of Freyja calling out the Knights on being such jerks. Maybe we can put HER in charge of the planet after all this is over.

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Historically kills have been a huge status symbol among fighter pilots. I don't think the knights enjoying aerial duels and wanting to decisively smash their enemies necessarily means they can't view the shadier aspects of the plan they're acting in support of as necessary evils.

Of course they also seem to take equal pride in trying to shoot up pop idols singing about the power of love so that rage zombies won't kill innocent people, which is not something I think many historical fighter pilots have traditionally celebrated.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

I get the impression unfair trade treaties probably aren't the reason the Wind Kingdom is fighting, and Roid is just playing up that angle in an attempt to win the support of other planets in the cluster.

Speaking as someone who studies this kind of thing, we really need to stop associating treaties with just trade. Even Roid has never said that it was about 'trade' per se. The core issue of unequal treaties is never about economic policies etc (that's merely one facet of it), but about sovereignty. About the right of a political entity--town, city, state, country, or worlds or sectors of space, as is the case here--to govern itself.

To look at real world examples, trade imbalances is one of the most common reasons for tensions between large states like the US, China and Japan today. But when we talk about 'unequal treaties', we usually mean agreements such as the ones with the American Indians in the late 18th century, or those that the nations of the West signed with China and Japan in the mid-19th century. I can't even begin to summarise all the issues involved--trade is but one of them.