(CR) Granbelm

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Mangetsu situation is standard shounen, if you don't like that, that is one thing, but it is otherwise fine.

People can have different opinions on this topic. Although it's something that's hard to come to an agreement with.

I'm still fine with Mangetsu power level for now. Watched plenty Gundam, and she does not have yet Kira Yamato level of plot armor.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It's damaging enough since there is no tension. At this point you know whenever it seems she's in trouble, she's just gonna hit the power up button and easily win. They would have to come up with some sort of twist to salvage this.

Shrug, there plenty of tension for me. Having power or not I know logically neither Mangetsu and Shingetsu aren't gonna lose because this their story. That goes 99% of fictional stories too, what matters is if they feel like they are and aren't written to perfect being that can handle any situation with ease. I couldn't careless how they got out of their toruble as long as ti is not foreshadowed or hinted at.

If you issue Mangetsu being established as high power as mage than your not really into the show. It is as much as characteristic of her and the core narrative as much Shingetsu's desire to erase magic or Anna's feud with her.

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

People can have different opinions on this topic. Although it's something that's hard to come to an agreement with.

I'm still fine with Mangetsu power level for now. Watched plenty Gundam, and she does not have yet Kira Yamato level of plot armor.

Yeah, I know. Kazu-kun seems not to like becasue he doesn't care for the story concept itself and not because of how it's used. That is just creatives differences between him and the writers. Nothing can be done about that.

[Kazu-kun]

[QUOTE=Applehell;6362425]Having power or not I know logically neither Mangetsu and Shingetsu aren't gonna lose because this their storyThat's besides the point. We're talking sense of tension. Even if the MC has get to the end, how they get there is what matters the most. If the MC wins thanks to her special insta-win power, it trivializes the whole thing.

Think what you will, but there are much better ways to achieve this.

[Applehell]

Like I implied, that is subjective. You can have tension with a powerful character as long they aren't protaryed as invincible. That they struggle before they get out of their jam or have some kind of drawback to how they did it. That how these characters are typical handles in shounen. Mangetsu strength is plot point that doesn't exist in vacuum and the story developments likely won't work without it.

I would be the first one complaining if she instantly won because I dislike OP character as MCs, but the writing here has been fair and Mangetsu potentially enormous strength doesn't mean she was working hard for her wins. But at end of the day plenty of factors contribute to anyone winning or losing when you extreme differences in ability between characters and have few rules in a battle royale. Granbelm isn't created in fairness in mind beyond the bare minimum. Everyone has work with they got even forming alliances or hiding for most of tournament if necessary like Nene could have done.

[4th Dimension]

When you are tying your character's I WIN button to emotional things, it just makes any win they do have seem to be granted to them by the writter rather than something they achieved through their skill.

Think it this way. Mangetsu didn't win in the last episode because she trained, or was able to anticipate her opponent better or anything that was really up to her. She won because the writer decided this was the moment where she engages her DETERMINATION drive. Which might still be fine IF Mangetsu continues to be characterized as someone DRIVEN. But what I fear could happen is that next episode she'll be back to her usual self and will probably be back to her usual but probably climbing power level, with the writter free to dump her in any trouble he wants while pretending that this trouble is dangerous all the while carressing the I WIN button she has and which he can press at any moment to resolve any tension.

I guess, that in the end it's a matter of preference. While I don't mind determinators, what I DO mind is when this determination only pops up whenever the witter feels like it and otherwise the character is being pulled and pushed with any agency whatsoever. Instead I preffer that even the determinator show that they are rapidly getting BETTER, not getting better powerups, but actually being more tactical and like, until they can stand on their own on their SKILLS rather than on the whims and wishes of the writer.

Probably the WORST type of ending to me is the one where the protagonist is handed the win to by the writer after they scraped through every fight with either Deus ex Machina or a series of highly unlikely coincidences. This all tends to make it seem all it took to win was to be there.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Shrug, there plenty of tension for me.

imagine you were the one stuck there fighting 1 vs 1 against that gigantic thing in which the original plan was to fight it 2 vs 1 with Kuon assistance? Wtf, that would be tense as hell for me. Tension also comes from the fact that Mangetsu did not know how to activate that black sword at will, she was only able to use it after nearly getting destroyed and suffering mental images of going back to being a nobody who brings free lunch for people to not be forgotten.

What puzzled me was Mangetsu decision to keep fighting despite the odds being against her? The wiser decision seems to be to flee and get the hell out of there.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

When you are tying your character's I WIN button to emotional things, it just makes any win they do have seem to be granted to them by the writter rather than something they achieved through their skill.

Mangetsu won because she was stronger and have far more raw magic power. It's literally what first few episodes were about. For her to be handled the win it needed to come out of nowhere. Tell me this, did anywhere in these 5 episode say Nene was stronger that Mangetsu in a raw power even if you argue she was more skilled? No I don't believe so. There is no DEM or handed win. Nene herself fought in a way her power was ill-suited for and she was warned about it.

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

imagine you were the one stuck there fighting 1 vs 1 against that gigantic thing in which the original plan was to fight it 2 vs 1 with Kuon assistance? Wtf, that would be tense as hell for me. Tension also comes from the fact that Mangetsu did not know how to activate that black sword at will, she was only able to use it after nearly getting destroyed and suffering mental images of going back to being a nobody who brings free lunch for people to not be forgotten.

Exactly!

What puzzled me was Mangetsu decision to keep fighting despite the odds being against her? The wiser decision seems to be to flee and get the hell out of there.

Well the tournament is non-lethal, that said she made it clear that Granbelm itself is everything to her right now. It's where she can feel needed. Discovering Mangetsu had magic talent and that she was natural give her something that made her stand out and give her strive for.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Mangetsu won because eh was stronger and have far more magic power. It's literally what few episodes were about. For her to be handled the win need to come out of nowhere.

It does come out of nowhere since we don't know why she has so much magical power. She just does, and that's the problem.

[Applehell]

It's not a problem if gets explained in the story and should be given how much of a big deal it's been when comes to her.

[Kazu-kun]

The explanation better be pretty good because Mangetsu having so much magical power is a potential plot whole. Most of the magic in the world should be sealed away after all.

[Applehell]

Well Mangetsu having magic isn't problem as it still exist, but much more diminished state. It's the strength and attunement that is in question. Does she have ancestor who was powerful mage, she a new born one or something more sinister?

There is still question you made earlier that I agree with is why does Granbelm exist at all if magic was sealed? I can assume for now that battle royale is part of the sealing process. Maybe winner of it get a wish use the power on at the end.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Exactly!


Well the tournament is non-lethal, that said she made it clear that Granbelm itself is everything to her right now. It's where she can feel needed. Discovering Mangetsu had magic talent and that she was natural give her something that made her stand out and give her strive for.

what's sort of ironic is it's Kuon who was supposed to fight that thing, and Mangetsu only provide backup. Ended up with Mangetsu fighting it solo.

One surprise by the writers that I liked.. in a previous episode, it was shown Ji Guan Long is very weak when challenged to close combat. Had to flee if people find it. Now, it's suddenly the Devil Gundam who will SMASH you if you get near it. Mangetsu almost got smashed.

About being non lethal, that is up to personal interpretation as well. On episode 1, when Mangetsu was outside an armanox and being chased.. it seems lethal to be grabbed and crushed? Also Ernesta had to block the shot from Ji Guan long, so Mangetsu won't be hit by the blast.. and possibly killed?

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Mangetsu won because she was stronger and have far more raw magic power. It's literally what first few episodes were about. For her to be handled the win it needed to come out of nowhere. Tell me this, did anywhere in these 5 episode say Nene was stronger that Mangetsu in a raw power even if you argue she was more skilled? No I don't believe so. There is no DEM or handed win. Nene herself fought in a way her power was ill-suited for and she was warned about it.

I'll disagree with that last part. In effect, from the moment Nene decloaked to when she was blasted away by Mangetsu, she made an active decision to part with her old ways, not hiding but confronting her problems.
Since Armanoxes are supposed to represent the player's soul, that decision was reflected in Ji Guan Long becoming stronger and more suited for Nene's new self. It is of course still a last minute power up scene, but it was much better justified, better handled and within the established rules so I was quite happy rather than "Oh God author what's the point you are just going to have Mangetsu beat her anyway" dryness. If Nene is a protagonist, it would easily have served as the basis for her win, and no one would question it.
To write it up as some kind of mistake would be to deny the validity of that growth.

It isn't enough to just abstractedly write Mangetsu up as having lots of potential. Having decided to go with a toned down interpretation of Ep 1-2 in Ep 3-4-5A to keep the tension, the audience expects Mangetsu to stay there for some time, unless there is a nice epiphany or training montgage or something to justify it. None of that happened. Mangetsu had PTSD and broke through the interpretation.
Another weakness is that up till now, Mangetsu is kind of the Nanoha in this show. While she does have things she wishes to do better, compared to the other characters she looked a lot more carefree and without deep, deep issues. So to suddenly say she has psychological issues sufficient to cause a PTSD which served as the basis for a last minute power up feels arbitrary.

One of the things that keeps me complaining harder, however, is my inability to come up with a solid counter recommendation. I want Nene to grow, so we can't dump that. Mangetsu beating Nene on skill is absurd. If she lucked out it would look arbitrary and undeserved. If she powered up at this moment using a positive epiphany it's also going to look contrived and diminish Nene's growth (Protagonist Growth better than Side Character Growth). And we only have 12 episodes. So, OK, fine, but to insist it is fully satisfactory is a bit much, methinks

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I'll disagree with that last part. In effect, from the moment Nene decloaked to when she was blasted away by Mangetsu, she made an active decision to part with her old ways, not hiding but confronting her problems.
Since Armanoxes are supposed to represent the player's soul, that decision was reflected in Ji Guan Long becoming stronger and more suited for Nene's new self.

her armanox changed because she changed her ways. Hmm, that is an interesting observation and believable. Good one, I didn't notice that.

Spoiler for official art:

[Kanon]

If Nene's Armanox changed because she herself changed, and I agree, then what does this mean for Mangetsu? White Lily turned into a freaking demon. That's the reason I'm find with this development. She doesn't have an auto win button. She has a dark auto win button. There's a big difference.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kanon

She has a dark auto win button. There's a big difference.

It will make a difference if the show does something with that "darkness" like turning Mangetsu into an antagonist or some shit like that. Otherwise the darkness is just decoration and doesn't really change anything.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Applehell

If she needs emotional trigger that proves she not OP. An OP person wouldn't need an trigger to get to that point. They would already mastered their full power.

If whenever she's about to lose, she gets triggered an wins, it doesn't make a big difference with just not having a trigger.

Originally Posted by Applehell

I don't remember arguing she wasn't powerful inherently. Not sure where you got that. I said the her power wasn't everything and didn't cum-stomp every opponent she came across like what OP characters actually do (see Tatsuya from Mahouka, Krito, SAO most Isekai protags etc}.

Kirito has very thick plot armor, but he's not OP. He's struggled plenty, and outright lost some fights that mattered.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It will make a difference if the show does something with that "darkness" like turning Mangetsu into an antagonist or some shit like that. Otherwise the darkness is just decoration and doesn't really change anything.

That happens to be exactly what I'm saying will happen. It seems pretty obvious at this point.

Why would you think the darkness is just decoration or that the reason Mangetsu has so much power won't get explained? You're so pessimistic about everything.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Why would you think the darkness is just decoration or that the reason Mangetsu has so much power won't get explained?

Because style over substance is a thing.

You're so pessimistic

No, I'm just a realist.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

If whenever she's about to lose, she gets triggered an wins, it doesn't make a big difference with just not having a trigger.



Kirito has very thick plot armor, but he's not OP. He's struggled plenty, and outright lost some fights that mattered.

But by this logic 99% of MC in anime or otherwise is OP. So why watch anything? The writers give any excuses the get them out of jam. Mangetsu having established having hidden power is far prefferable and gives an in universe reason for her over turning than being protagonists. It's either this or convenient DEM but Mangetsu isn't lose narrative for same reason most fictional. He's complaining about an established convention that featured in even shows he watches.

Complaining about Mangetsu wining is trite, how she does and whether it makes sense the story enough to believable it's own integral logi is what is important, not his prefeneces. He doesn't have watch the if he can't deal the fact Mangetsu and Shingetsu will succeed beyond whatever else happens. It's not like show was pretending Mangetsu wasn't special and not showed you how. If this Fateverse mage families would fighting over her.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I'll disagree with that last part. In effect, from the moment Nene decloaked to when she was blasted away by Mangetsu, she made an active decision to part with her old ways, not hiding but confronting her problems.
Since Armanoxes are supposed to represent the player's soul, that decision was reflected in Ji Guan Long becoming stronger and more suited for Nene's new self. It is of course still a last minute power up scene, but it was much better justified, better handled and within the established rules so I was quite happy rather than "Oh God author what's the point you are just going to have Mangetsu beat her anyway" dryness. If Nene is a protagonist, it would easily have served as the basis for her win, and no one would question it.
To write it up as some kind of mistake would be to deny the validity of that growth.

It isn't enough to just abstractedly write Mangetsu up as having lots of potential. Having decided to go with a toned down interpretation of Ep 1-2 in Ep 3-4-5A to keep the tension, the audience expects Mangetsu to stay there for some time, unless there is a nice epiphany or training montgage or something to justify it. None of that happened. Mangetsu had PTSD and broke through the interpretation.
Another weakness is that up till now, Mangetsu is kind of the Nanoha in this show. While she does have things she wishes to do better, compared to the other characters she looked a lot more carefree and without deep, deep issues. So to suddenly say she has psychological issues sufficient to cause a PTSD which served as the basis for a last minute power up feels arbitrary.

One of the things that keeps me complaining harder, however, is my inability to come up with a solid counter recommendation. I want Nene to grow, so we can't dump that. Mangetsu beating Nene on skill is absurd. If she lucked out it would look arbitrary and undeserved. If she powered up at this moment using a positive epiphany it's also going to look contrived and diminish Nene's growth (Protagonist Growth better than Side Character Growth). And we only have 12 episodes. So, OK, fine, but to insist it is fully satisfactory is a bit much, methinks

What I'm not getting here is why Nene is owed to win Granbelm more than anyone? Since when has tournament show that cared about her efforts and the wins didn't go to who was the strongest? Having a sob-story doesn't grant you that in cutthroat battle arena where people will form teams to gang up on than fight/or betray each other later. This not an honorable duel, but a desperate fight between girls only the most powerful or cunning wining out. Nene development doesn't mean anything to objectively to that cruel reality. If Mangetsu didn't beat her someone else would by any means necessary because it allowed as long as it is the arena. Nene's loss not deny her growth, but someone got to lose it's not be the protagonists of the story just like in most plots otherwise it over. I'm just happy there is a reason. Armanox is the reflection of mage magic power and will a person like Mangetsu power is great enough to affect her surroundings is not great shock she grow faster than Nene did to me and have more power to boot.