Fate/stay night Heaven's Feel Movie Discussion Thread

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

I am not getting personal - only realistic.

You cannot expect them to give Sakura the same treatment that main heroine in the route will receive. Not to mention that Zouken didn't get involved at all, so after the way Sakura stays with him and that's it. That's what happens in UBW and Fate and I don't see why would they change that when they already decided to do unrelated HF movie(s) to resolve her story as well. Using that they can go fully for UBW true ending, just like they can let Ilya get brutally killed because she has her own anime.

And I agree, speculations need to stop to allow rumors to return. I am coming here to read rumors, not how some would like for x character to end.

Not to mention Zouken is a cautious one. His plans couldn't take form in UBW. So I seriously doubt he would do anything stupid like come in contact with Gil. He'll play it as low key as possible until the war is over and then start planning for the next war.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Amarantine

Rather than unreasonable, unrealistic is more what I meant. After all, like you said, Rin is still a kid, and at the start of the story she's still trying to fully uphold the whole "being the heir to a great magus family" thing, which implies being a cold and pragmatic person like her father conditioned and raised her up to become.

Well, yes, sure, she's not going to do it, but that is a character flaw on her part rather than anything fundamental preventing her doing so. Which means that, if something does happen to Sakura, she's likely to feel extremely guilty about not doing something earlier.

Of course, her character arc largely consists of her coming to terms with the fact that she's unable to do so and instead accepting her inherently kind nature (to the point of risking her life to save an irredimable asshole like Shinji), so I'd say that after UBW the chances of her looking into Sakura's situation and doing something about it in the future will have certainly increased.

Yeah, it's just that that makes the ending lack closure, which isn't really that great when you don't intend to make a sequel.

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

The anime follows UBW route, how is Sakura handled in UBW route - she will be the same way in anime. They don't really need to add any extra material about her fate in anime, than what we have been shown in VN, when they are going to make a movie(s) about her route anyway.

Except that she's Rin's sister, and people coming from Zero will be aware of this and her situation. That makes it harder for them to just ignore her and still have a satisfactory ending to the story.

Originally Posted by scyllus

I love Sakura as a character but I could envision her death instead of Illyas as a component for a grial, if only to see how it would affect Rin. Won't happen because of Nasu, but if Saber could die in HF to develop Shriou and Rider, Sakura's death, instead of deus-machina saving method could help develop the heroine, Rin. It would even work better than Illya to bolster Shirou's resolve in his ideal and make his battle against Gil more personal. It would be sad and all, but it's still better than happy-go-lucky UBW true-as Sakura's death should develop Rin and Shirou. But really I'm sure Nasu would object, Fans would rage, and hell would froze over before it could happen. It would also connect some dots from zero without spoiling much from HF.

Sakura isn't a Grail outside of HF, though, and even there she's not a proper Grail. You couldn't use her heart like Ilya's.

It's also not resolving the situation at all, it's just using Sakura as a dumb plot sacrifice.

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

But why would Sakura and Saber get additional time in Rin's route? Saber is already bada** in that route, only she is not resolved 100% but she has been resolved in 2006 anime so that's ok. Sakura will be too resolved 100% in HF movie, so that leaves anime to be pure Rin. If someone finds that distasteful - then just don't watch it. Watch your favorite route animation instead and be happy.

Because Sakura is Rin's sister. You can't cover Rin fully without involving Sakura somehow. The VN leaves it out because of spoilers, but the result is that UBW misses a bunch of development for her (hence why it's often called Archer's route).

Judging what decision UFOtable made they will probably go with VN storyline to the letter and that's pretty much it, adding original content only to fil gap between UBW and FZ and that's pretty much it.

Sakura is part of that "gap", though. As is Saber, for that matter. Coming from Zero, Sakura's relationship with Rin and Saber's problems both need resolving in a way that someone reading the VN would not require.

Originally Posted by hinode

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but while Fate/Zero showed the wormpit I don't think it revealed that Zouken implanted his core worm within Sakura. This means there should be room for ufotable to resolve the visible hanging plot threads from Zero in UBW while still leaving the core HF plotline untouched. Something like:

A) Gilgamesh seemingly kills/drives away Zouken while he's nominally under Shinji because he thinks Zouken is a mongrel

B) Gil also clears out the basement of worms because they disgust him

C) Show Shinji treating Sakura better at the end since he's no longer jealous of her

D) Maybe some sort of recognition of Sakura from Rin before she leaves for London

This way Sakura's visible issues from the perspective of Zero-only watchers look resolved, but the complications below the surface are left for until the HF movie(s) where they belong, rather than shoehorning them into UBW badly or trivializing them by somehow completely saving Sakura in a trivial manner.

Hmm, it's possible, but that would come across really badly to anyone who does know HF, especially since Zouken would need to find a way to bring himself back somehow (which likely means taking Sakura's body).

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

You cannot expect them to give Sakura the same treatment that main heroine in the route will receive. Not to mention that Zouken didn't get involved at all, so after the way Sakura stays with him and that's it. That's what happens in UBW and Fate and I don't see why would they change that when they already decided to do unrelated HF movie(s) to resolve her story as well. Using that they can go fully for UBW true ending, just like they can let Ilya get brutally killed because she has her own anime.

Rin is Sakura's sister. As someone who is supposedly a good person, I would expect her not to just abandon and forget about her own little sister....

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Not to mention Zouken is a cautious one. His plans couldn't take form in UBW. So I seriously doubt he would do anything stupid like come in contact with Gil. He'll play it as low key as possible until the war is over and then start planning for the next war.

Well, canonically Shinji takes Gil into the basement, at least. So it's possible Zouken could die then.

[mirakura]

I know I've been talking about plot changes an'all but, wouldn't any original scenes change the plot anyway?

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, canonically Shinji takes Gil into the basement, at least. So it's possible Zouken could die then.

That is all the more reason for him to disappear and stay out of sight of everyone for the remainder of the grail war. He's not the type who will le himself die before he could even start his plans.

Chances are most likely that UBW will remain UBW and HF will remain HF without mixing the 2 since they are each getting an adaption.

Originally Posted by mirakura

I know I've been talking about plot changes an'all but, wouldn't any original scenes change the plot anyway?

Not really. It could expand the plot without changing it. Like maybe showing more on Archer's past and how it played out and such.

[hinode]

Originally Posted by mirakura

I know I've been talking about plot changes an'all but, wouldn't any original scenes change the plot anyway?

The original magazine line about new scenes was:

Since nobody's bothering, Miura's talking about the scenario meetings and how Nasu was talking about this stuff you couldn't figure out from just playing the game and background tidbits.
The interviewer asks him what kind of stuff this was and Miura gives an answer that wasn't put on print.
The interviewer's excited response was that was information that really was new info that wasn't in any of the Type Moon material books. And wowzers.

So we should be getting events that technically happened in the VN but were never shown or even really implied.

Sadly a bad translation turned this into "original content for an original route" and thus we got months of speculation all across the internet that ended up being waaaaaaay off the mark.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by hinode

The original magazine line about new scenes was:



So we should be getting events that technically happened in the VN but were never shown or even really implied.

Sadly a bad translation turned this into "original content for an original route" and thus we got months of speculation all across the internet that ended up being waaaaaaay off the mark.

No we got days of it before it was corrected followed by months from those who refused to accept that it was a mistranslation originally lol.

But information that we couldn't figure out through the game. This has me curious. anyone have any ideas what it could be? It won't be specifically stated in the routes if this is the case while still being there.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

No we got days of it before it was corrected followed by months from those who refused to accept that it was a mistranslation originally lol.

But information that we couldn't figure out through the game. This has me curious. anyone have any ideas what it could be? It won't be specifically stated in the routes if this is the case while still being there.

Yh but, what extra info could there be? As far as i'm concerned, my fav chara's got enough info in that route. And Sakura doesn't have enough but thats kept for plot-twist. We need Rin and Archer fans for help if they have any suggestions

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Yh but, what extra info could there be? As far as i'm concerned, my fav chara's got enough info in that route. And Sakura doesn't have enough but thats kept for plot-twist. We need Rin and Archer fans for help if they have any suggestions

I can imagine more behind the scenes stuff with Rin concerning Sakura. I don't think they will change how UBW turned out and probably won't increase Sakura's presence or ending. There probably won't be a true reconciliation which is how the VN route went but show more about Rin looking after Sakura and such. Basically just show what has been hinted of Rin but not change anything about the route.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

I'm guessing it's shit like Bazett, various off panel battles and maybe Rin stalking Sakura. There also a bit ofextra information Fate/extra goes into regarding Archer's backstory but the VN does not vut I'm not entirely sure they'll put it in.

[Altima of the Gates]

Well the best way for people to guess what will happen is just to read the VN and mark down the stuff that was skipped due to not being observed by Shirou or off-camera stuff. UBW as a route was the shortest, so getting a full anime would allow exploration of most branching parts of that. Good things to include would be more info about Kuzuki, seems he doesn't really get much in the way of character development and isn't that explored even in Hollow. Maybe more stuff concerning what happened to Rider. The anime has the advantage of being able to do more off-camera things, but only what we saw hinted at in the route itself. No need to speculate much further than that. Nor do I think they meant that they will change the outcome, so it's a waste of time to speculate on possible ways for them to change it, since they just meant things we didn't get to see.

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Well the best way for people to guess what will happen is just to read the VN and mark down the stuff that was skipped due to not being observed by Shirou or off-camera stuff. UBW as a route was the shortest, so getting a full anime would allow exploration of most branching parts of that. Good things to include would be more info about Kuzuki, seems he doesn't really get much in the way of character development and isn't that explored even in Hollow. Maybe more stuff concerning what happened to Rider. The anime has the advantage of being able to do more off-camera things, but only what we saw hinted at in the route itself. No need to speculate much further than that. Nor do I think they meant that they will change the outcome, so it's a waste of time to speculate on possible ways for them to change it, since they just meant things we didn't get to see.

If we're going off stuff that happened off-screen, then there's always Assassin fighting just about every Servant and managing to prevent them from getting into Ryudou Temple. I'd certainly be curious to see him fending off Berserker as supposedly happened.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

I can imagine more behind the scenes stuff with Rin concerning Sakura. I don't think they will change how UBW turned out and probably won't increase Sakura's presence or ending. There probably won't be a true reconciliation which is how the VN route went but show more about Rin looking after Sakura and such. Basically just show what has been hinted of Rin but not change anything about the route.

Well, given that we see Shinji take Gil into the basement during UBW and squash a few worms, it's possible that it is meant to be implied that Zouken gets killed off, and the anime will show that to be the case. After all, we never see any evidence that Zouken is alive past that point, so it would be entirely consistent with the story for that to be true, and it would certainly eliminate a lot of the uncertainty around Sakura's fate.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, given that we see Shinji take Gil into the basement during UBW and squash a few worms, it's possible that it is meant to be implied that Zouken gets killed off, and the anime will show that to be the case. After all, we never see any evidence that Zouken is alive past that point, so it would be entirely consistent with the story for that to be true, and it would certainly eliminate a lot of the uncertainty around Sakura's fate.

Zouken's inside Sakura and I doubt Gilgamesh cares enough to go out of his way to save Sakura if he wanted to kill Zouken. Your basing all this on the fact that Gilgamesh is such a nice guy that he'd go out of his way to save Sakura. Gilgamesh doesn't care about mongrels, he let waver go out of his loyalty to Alexander someone Gilgamesh considers worthy.

Unless Sakura swears unfailing loyalty to Gilgamesh, I can't see how your little scenario would even work out in regards to character portrayal.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Zouken's inside Sakura and I doubt Gilgamesh cares enough to go out of his way to save Sakura if he wanted to kill Zouken. Your basing all this on the fact that Gilgamesh is such a nice guy that he'd go out of his way to save Sakura. Gilgamesh doesn't care about mongrels, he let waver go out of his loyalty to Alexander someone Gilgamesh considers worthy.

Unless Sakura swears unfailing loyalty to Gilgamesh, I can't see how your little scenario would even work out in regards to character portrayal.

Gilgamesh doesn't have to care about Sakura to want to get rid of Zouken.

In fact, Zouken is so disgusting that he would get rid of him on general principle. That would be pretty in character for Gilgamesh, and he could really do it with some weapon from Gate of Babylon.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, given that we see Shinji take Gil into the basement during UBW and squash a few worms, it's possible that it is meant to be implied that Zouken gets killed off, and the anime will show that to be the case. After all, we never see any evidence that Zouken is alive past that point, so it would be entirely consistent with the story for that to be true, and it would certainly eliminate a lot of the uncertainty around Sakura's fate.

They aren't going to make such a big change to the route. They will use HF to deal with that storyline. Gil would also just as likely kill Sakura. She still holds inactive command spells (Kirei would know that she was the true master of Rider) and he would probably just see her as weak for not fighting back and just allowing this to happen to her. Waver stood up for himself against Gil and proved his beliefs and loyalty to Broskander. That was why Waver was spared by Gil. Sakura hadn't done anything like that in UBW. Her growth is entirely in HF.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

They aren't going to make such a big change to the route. They will use HF to deal with that storyline. Gil would also just as likely kill Sakura. She still holds inactive command spells (Kirei would know that she was the true master of Rider) and he would probably just see her as weak for not fighting back and just allowing this to happen to her. Waver stood up for himself against Gil and proved his beliefs and loyalty to Broskander. That was why Waver was spared by Gil. Sakura hadn't done anything like that in UBW. Her growth is entirely in HF.

But it's not a "big change", because Zouken dying has precisely zero impact on the story. In fact, if it is meant to be implied by the basement scene then they're not changing anything at all.

Further, it does make logical sense that assuing Zouken's death was intended, because otherwise there is literally no reason to show an interlude with Shinji taking Gil into the basement and crushing worms (remember that this is in UBW, so the readers don't know about the basement at that point). They couldn't make it explicit what was happening in the VN because it would be a HF spoiler, but the UBW anime is likely to assume that people already know about Zouken, so that's not a problem.

As for why Gil would be there, he's Shinji's "servant" at the time, and is shown canonically going into the basement in an interlude. It makes sense that he might have killed Zouken at that point. And, we know Sakura survives to the end of the route, so he can't have killed her.

I'm not saying it's certain, but it's definitely a possibility, and it would provide resolution to Sakura's situation in UBW without having to change the plot in any way.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

They aren't going to make such a big change to the route. They will use HF to deal with that storyline. Gil would also just as likely kill Sakura. She still holds inactive command spells (Kirei would know that she was the true master of Rider) and he would probably just see her as weak for not fighting back and just allowing this to happen to her. Waver stood up for himself against Gil and proved his beliefs and loyalty to Broskander. That was why Waver was spared by Gil. Sakura hadn't done anything like that in UBW. Her growth is entirely in HF.

Gil might spare her after seeing she had to live with worms for such a long time. He is a pretty nice guy(as in a tsun)so you never know.

@Cherry Lover

But wouldn't the worm still be in Sakura's heart?

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Gil might spare her after seeing she had to live with worms for such a long time. He is a pretty nice guy(as in a tsun)so you never know.

Well, we know Sakura doesn't die, because she's still around in the epilogue. Zouken, on the other hand, is never mentioned after that point (even though he is mentioned prior to it, when he calls Shirou's house to tell Sakura to return home), so his death would be possible.

@Cherry Lover

But wouldn't the worm still be in Sakura's heart?

Well, it depends on how he is killed. It is possible, yes, but at very least we know Zouken cannot have taken Sakura's body, because Sakura is still alive in the epilogue. I'd imagine that, if they were intending to imply Zouken's death in the original VN, they'd make it stick, though, since otherwise why bother?

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Gilgamesh doesn't have to care about Sakura to want to get rid of Zouken.

In fact, Zouken is so disgusting that he would get rid of him on general principle. That would be pretty in character for Gilgamesh, and he could really do it with some weapon from Gate of Babylon.

Yes and Sakura would die also. Zouken is in Sakura. It would be far easier for Gilgamesh to kill Sakura also and it makes no sense for him to go out of his way to save her.

Plus nothing really disgusts Gilgamesh in that context your thinking of, if you believed that you'd miss the point of his character. He didn't push Kotomine down the path he did because that sort of shit ever really actually repulsed him, he's far more interested in seeing what he considers interesting people entertaining him than he is about any remotest context of morality.

He only dislikes people who directly offend him, e.g copy his weapons, steal his weapons, show him absolutely no respect. Someone like Zouken who simply schemes and is vile is simply the type of person Gilgamesh would rather observe than destroy.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Yes and Sakura would die also. Zouken is in Sakura. It would be far easier for Gilgamesh to kill Sakura also and it makes no sense for him to go out of his way to save her.

It depends on the method of killing. There is no reason to assume that Gil is incapable of killing Zouken without destroying the worm in Sakura's heart.

Plus nothing really disgusts Gilgamesh in that context your thinking of, if you believed that you'd miss the point of his character. He didn't push Kotomine down the path he did because that sort of shit ever really actually repulsed him, he's far more interested in seeing what he considers interesting people entertaining him than he is about any remotest context of morality.

He only dislikes people who directly offend him, e.g copy his weapons, steal his weapons, show him absolutely no respect. Someone like Zouken who simply schemes and is vile is simply the type of person Gilgamesh would rather observe than destroy.

I dunno, I think he'd still find Zouken somewhat repulsive. For one thing, Gil is pretty big on the whole "no-one but me is allowed to kill people" thing, which Zouken very much breaks. Plus, Zouken's fixation on living no matter what and general lack of humanity is one I'd expect Gil not to approve of. Even Kotomine thinks Zouken should die.

Plus, it's entirely possible that Shinji suggested it, and Gil went along with it just because. Shinji is not exactly fond of Zouken, after all, Zouken treats him with utter contempt.

Like I said, the question is why Gil is even in the basement in the first place otherwise, and especially why it was used as an interlude. It serves literally no purpose unless it's to imply Zouken's death.