(L+CR) My Teenage RomCom SNAFU (Yahari Ore no Seishun Love Comedy wa Machigatteiru)

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

I disagree, she was definitely criticizing his job as "the enemy", otherwise she would not have said "but this enemy here is a bit of a scrub" then lecture him on how the "common enemy" has to do his job properly for people to have a desire to oppose him.

Nah... really, she was by no means "lecuring him". In fact, I wasn't too sure (at first) why you took it that way. She's teasing him, not criticising him. He already accomplished his goal of galvanizing the team to action.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Pay attention to the committee members in the background. Are they paying any attention to Hachiman? Do they look angry at him for what he said, or angry at all?

It doesn't matter at that point; the team got the message and they were all working, though they also were dumping extra things on him (which was shown). He still got them passed the impasse at that time, and did what he needed to do.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

There is still one episode left. Considering that the episode on a less-than-happy note with a scene of Sagami looking distressed, do you honestly think Hachiman's role as the "bad guy" is done with only one speech? Do you think the festival will proceed smoothly from here on out without any more problems?

Do you believe Haruno thinks Hachiman's role as the bad guy is done and that the festival will proceed smoothly to her?

First of all, you're not allowed to engage in speculation when you already know the novels, so I'm annoyed as hell that this whole conversation has really been around a clearly-forbidden foreshadowing hint.

But that notwithstanding, and knowing what happens in the next (now current) episode, I still don't agree with you. If she was dropping a little hint that he may have to take that role again, okay maybe that at best. But she wasn't by any means lecturing him or telling him that he didn't do a "good enough job". Her little "jab" was not a critique, and her little speech afterwards was exposition about what he already did. They didn't need to have a constant enemy to keep them working hard, but a flash point to galvanize the situation when the need arises. And that's what the follow-through is about. It was true that the situation was not yet over, and neither was his role, but she wasn't trying to tell him right there that he did a poor job. She was saying he did a good job, even if no one else really appreciates/recognizes what he did (except her, her sister, and the teacher).

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Nah... really, she was by no means "lecuring him". In fact, I wasn't too sure (at first) why you took it that way. She's teasing him, not criticising him. He already accomplished his goal of galvanizing the team to action.

I don't understand why you state as if it's unfeasibile for Haruno to give Hachiman advice subtly in the form of teasing.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

First of all, you're not allowed to engage in speculation when you already know the novels, so I'm annoyed as hell that this whole conversation has really been around a clearly-forbidden foreshadowing hint.

Wait... what? When was this a rule?

Since when did I use any evidence not already in the episode, or allude to anything in the novels? You might as well be banning me solely for posting in the novel thread.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

But that notwithstanding, and knowing what happens in the next (now current) episode, I still don't agree with you. If she was dropping a little hint that he may have to take that role again, okay maybe that at best. But she wasn't by any means lecturing him or telling him that he didn't do a "good enough job". Her little "jab" was not a critique, and her little speech afterwards was exposition about what he already did. They didn't need to have a constant enemy to keep them working hard, but a flash point to galvanize the situation when the need arises. And that's what the follow-through is about. It was true that the situation was not yet over, and neither was his role, but she wasn't trying to tell him right there that he did a poor job. She was saying he did a good job, even if no one else really appreciates/recognizes what he did (except her, her sister, and the teacher).

Then explain why Haruno teased Hachiman by saying he wasn't doing his job when he told her "you look at and tell me (if I'm working)".

Also explain why Haruno, who acted as the enemy for Yukino and still continues to act that way to provoke her, would think that Hachiman only needed to play the bad guy in one instance.


Personally, when one guy at work criticizes me and other coworkers rudely at only one time, I would ignore him and continue about my business within the next day or two after the frustration wears off.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Wait... what? When was this a rule?

Since when did I use any evidence not already in the episode, or allude to anything in the novels? You might as well be banning me solely for posting in the novel thread.

ref. The reason I didn't take any action is because you straddled the line, but the specific comment I quoted (with the details you alluded to) are a lot more specific than you probably thought particularly when you see the next episode. Hence my annoyance. You're participating in a speculation game with extra cards in your hand, and that isn't totally fair. (In this case, though, it also so happens that I don't think the hints really change anything.)

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Then explain why Haruno teased Hachiman by saying he wasn't doing his job when he told her "you look at and tell me (if I'm working)".

Because he's an "unsung hero". He did the most important thing of everyone to bring the team together by playing the "villain" in the stunt on the previous day, but nobody appreciates what he did or why (and the minutes will make no mention of it, since he's the one writing them). Her whole comment is her pointing out that she understands what he was up to there and recognizes what happened as a result. Like I said, it's praise (albeit measured praise, because what he did wasn't entirely praiseworthy -- ref. also the conversation with the teacher after the camp).

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Also explain why Haruno, who acted as the enemy for Yukino and still continues to act that way to provoke her, would think that Hachiman only needed to play the bad guy in one instance.

Conversely, explain why you believe Haruno hasn't already figured out that Hachiman is the sort of person who will already play the bad guy again when he needs to in order to do what needs to be done. She's not telling him anything he didn't already know, only seeing through what he already did (and pointing out that she knows).

At that moment, though, Hachiman has already played his role. And now he was dealing with the consequences (more busywork dumped onto him by others), even though he doesn't entirely "deserve it". He actually saved the day.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Personally, when one guy at work criticizes me and other coworkers rudely at only one time, I would ignore him and continue about my business within the next day or two after the frustration wears off.

Yeah, but this doesn't matter. The biggest problem was that the leader was setting a bad example by slacking off (being more concerned about having fun, everyone helping her class, etc.) What he was trying to point out was that some people were working hard to try to make the festival happen (i.e. Yukino), while other people (like the chairman) weren't doing their fair share. That message came across loud and clear. If the chairman takes things more seriously, others will as well.

Basically, Hachiman said what he had to say to who he had to say it at the right time to accomplish the goal, although he went about it in an incredibly oblique way. Haruno sees through it, hence that exchange.


Anyway, the next episode has aired, so I'm not going to keep dragging this on unnecessarily.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

ref. The reason I didn't take any action is because you straddled the line, but the specific comment I quoted (with the details you alluded to) are a lot more specific than you probably thought particularly when you see the next episode. Hence my annoyance. You're participating in a speculation game with extra cards in your hand, and that isn't totally fair. (In this case, though, it also so happens that I don't think the hints really change anything.)

It's kind of difficult to miss a hint that is shoved into your face. The beginning and ending of a speech, story, essay, or any form of media with a statement are the most important places for catching attention... at least that was what I was taught in school.

You also don't need to read the novels to guess that Hachiman would play the "unsung hero" either when he has been doing that for the entire series. In fact, it would be more unrealistic to expect the series would end with Hachiman happily enjoying the festival with the episode filled with nothing but appreciation for him by the small circle of acquaintences who know him.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Because he's an "unsung hero". He did the most important thing of everyone to bring the team together by playing the "villain" in the stunt on the previous day, but nobody appreciates what he did or why (and the minutes will make no mention of it, since he's the one writing them). Her whole comment is her pointing out that she understands what he was up to there and recognizes what happened as a result. Like I said, it's praise (albeit measured praise, because what he did wasn't entirely praiseworthy -- ref. also the conversation with the teacher after the camp).

Then Haruno could have said "I guess you are doing your work properly" or something to that effect instead of denying it, then give the same speech.

Again, why is it not possible for Haruno to state the obvious in the form of advice? Why can't that be a form of measured praise?

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Conversely, explain why you believe Haruno hasn't already figured out that Hachiman is the sort of person who will already play the bad guy again when he needs to in order to do what needs to be done. She's not telling him anything he didn't already know, only seeing through what he already did (and pointing out that she knows).

I don't believe that. I know Haruno already knows everything.

What I claim is that Haruno is not speaking in the past tense. She is giving him advice, even if the advice is something Hachiman already knows.
She is speaking to him specifically that way so that
1) Yukino notices Haruno is with Hachiman, and
2) so that her speech does come off as advice to the other committee members. She knows how people work well enough to make sure that she is not showing anything that looks like an act of praise or favoritism. Because she is lecturing him (even if she teases), the other committee members in the room will think it's nothing out of the ordinary and pay less attention to what exactly she is saying as a result.

It is a real thing for people to give advice to subordinates/children whom already know simply as reminders.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Yeah, but this doesn't matter. The biggest problem was that the leader was setting a bad example by slacking off (being more concerned about having fun, everyone helping her class, etc.) What he was trying to point out was that some people were working hard to try to make the festival happen (i.e. Yukino), while other people (like the chairman) weren't doing their fair share. That message came across loud and clear. If the chairman takes things more seriously, others will as well.

Huh? You think that Hachiman only wanted to criticize Sagami?

Haruno was the one who encouraged Sagami and the entire committee to relax and enjoy the festival, and Sagami merely echoed it. The entire committee was given a direct okay to slack off.

Even if Sagami was the biggest offender, she was far from the only one. Hachiman was speaking to the committee as a whole, and it's because everyone needed to take something away from it that he didn't specify who or even hint that it was a single person. The problem was the entire committee, not just Sagami.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Basically, Hachiman said what he had to say to who he had to say it at the right time to accomplish the goal, although he went about it in an incredibly oblique way. Haruno sees through it, hence that exchange.

I know Haruno sees through it. I don't agree the exchange was merely praise.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

What I claim is that Haruno is not speaking in the past tense. She is giving him advice, even if the advice is something Hachiman already knows.
She is speaking to him specifically that way so that
1) Yukino notices Haruno is with Hachiman, and
2) so that her speech does come off as advice to the other committee members. She knows how people work well enough to make sure that she is not showing anything that looks like an act of praise or favoritism. Because she is lecturing him (even if she teases), the other committee members in the room will think it's nothing out of the ordinary and pay less attention to what exactly she is saying as a result.

It is a real thing for people to give advice to subordinates/children whom already know simply as reminders.

I guess we'll just forever disagree on this point. Hachiman served as the enemy in front of the committee in order to galvanize the chairman (and everyone else) to do what needs to be done (in this case, to share in the work and start taking things more seriously). Haruno is herself serving as the enemy in front of her sister in order to galvanize her to do what needs to be done (in this case, learning to be a good leader while working with others). This is why, at the end of her speech, Hachiman starts figuring out why she's here, and she says (basically) that she doesn't like boys who figure things out (i.e. "who are too smart for their own good").

The rest of the people in the room aren't going to get what she's saying because they haven't figured out yet why he did what he did. And they also haven't figured out yet why she's doing what she's doing either. It's a coded message that really only he will understand; half-praising him ("I saw what you did there..."), half-teasing him ("do you see what I'm doing too...?").

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Huh? You think that Hachiman only wanted to criticize Sagami?

If anyone else feels guilty from his speech, so much the better, but this is all coming right off of him figuring out that Yukino is suffering due to the burden she's placing on herself. It's no coincidence that he makes this comment in direct response to the chairman's (and her friends') own proposed slogan. Sagami is the supposed to be the leader, but she's letting Yukino do all the work; at the very least he's using her as his prime example.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by Okashira

Spoiler for Watches episode 12:

- They kinda modified the end and implied that Yukinoshita & Hikki eventually join the celebration

Did they? that certainly wasn't the impression I was getting from the episode.

[DragoonKain3]

Come to think of it, cant one interpret the classroom scene as Hikki wanting himself to be preemptively 'friendzoned' by Yukinon just so she doesn't get the chance to do so herself? I mean, being 'friendzoned' by his crush in middle school is the source of his 'wicked attittude' right? In a way, one can interpret Hikki's actions here as just a way to deal with his 'friendzone' insecurities by not getting his hopes up that they can be something more.

Of course, Yukinon 'reverse friendzoned' this time, if that makes sense? Why make the distinction about before when she didn't know him and how she knows him now, when her answer is still the same... that she and Hikki can never be 'friends'? I'm inclined to think that before her answer implies that she can never get along with Hikki (other words, literally friends), but this time her answer is that she can never see him as 'just' a friend now that she knows who he truly is.

Wait a minute, as an osananajimi shipper, aren't I'm supposed to interpret these scenes as anti-HikkiXYukinon? What has gotten into me? Maybe nearing the end of Binbougami Ga's manga is getting to me.

[hakazee]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Even if Sagami was the biggest offender, she was far from the only one. Hachiman was speaking to the committee as a whole, and it's because everyone needed to take something away from it that he didn't specify who or even hint that it was a single person. The problem was the entire committee, not just Sagami.

agree

they all forget who the people behind the scenes that caused this incident occurred.
the one who manipulate Sagami and plan to scapegoat her for the sake of his sister Yukino.
if we look at the chronology of events sagami is the actual Victim of the society and the Last boss should be Haruno

[Von Himmel]

>- Delinquent girl wasn't invited (spoken roles taken out).

;_;

Other than shitty animation during concert scene (here I thought they're going to place all their budgets into it), it's pretty good episode. It manages to deliver what they wanted to tell to us pretty well. Also, the expression Hayato had after the roof scene was pretty great, it really shows how he's in anguish after seeing Hachiman way of doing things.

It's also nice to see Sagami got told..again :P With him doing that, people starts blaming Hachiman more rather than her being a bad chairman. I wonder if she knew the what Hachiman tried to do during that scene..

[Elestia]

The scene between Shizuka and Hachiman was definitely one of the highlights for this episode. She really does lay out Hachiman's cynicism as something that should not be praised, no matter how good his results are.

[EroKing]

Episode 12
A complete heel turn from Hikigaya and he did a fabulous work at it. It's not easy playing the bad guy, get a reaction from others and at the same time make them genuinely hate you to get your point across. Only those close to him realized the significance of his efforts. These days I rarely come across an anime series where the male character gets as much as development as the females and what we just witnessed in this episode confirms Hikigaya as one of the best male characters in recent times. Till next week for the finale...

[backbone]

Argh, what a painful episode. To say that i felt so bitter after watching it probably would be an understatement. Hachiman being a total hero who saved the day by taking all the shit toward him? That's good, and probably refreshing for a romcom lead. But the way he did that . . . ARGH! I just don't get whether i should drop my jaw or frown upon it. And in the end, only Shizuka who actually recognized his deed . . . How sad, and painful . . .

But overall it's a decent eps. Aside from average to bad animation and the use of stills (Argh, i got reminded of you again, AoT!), i find the characters' reactions to be extremely realistic, as if i was watching a live action show (Kudos to the scriptwriter!), and the BGM during the concert which was nice and enjoyable.

In the end, Hachiman gained nothing at all and stays the way he is, but for some reason i just can't hate him for that

[molitar]

The one that can make me hate is Yukinoshita she is probably the first one he has tried to befriend for who knows how many years and both times she coldly rejects him. She is suppose to be running a service club and suppose to help cure him of being a loner but she fails miserably. She says she wants to help others but it's Hachiman that seems to do all the work and succeeds. She is so cold and aloof to the point that she fails as a club that helps others. Hachiman is the only reason the club is succeeding at all.

No wonder the other girls harassed her so much she is suppose to be so perfect at everything and acts like that but she is actually quite the failure at being human. She might as well just be a robot with her personality and ego.

[Kakkou]

I just love seeing Hachiman in 'action'. Not anyone can openly express themselves and commit social suicide like he does. That irresponsible attention whore deserved every single word she got.

I'll seriously miss this show when it's over.

Originally Posted by backbone

And in the end, only Shizuka who actually recognized his deed . . . How sad, and painful . . .

Hayato understood it too, he just strongly disagrees with Hachman's methods. Haruno and Yukino obviously do too. Yui... probably does. Not sure about Totsuka but I can't see him hating Hachiman over it. Zaimokuza is Zaimokuza.

[Excorsism]

Originally Posted by molitar

The one that can make me hate is Yukinoshita she is probably the first one he has tried to befriend for who knows how many years and both times she coldly rejects him. She is suppose to be running a service club and suppose to help cure him of being a loner but she fails miserably. She says she wants to help others but it's Hachiman that seems to do all the work and succeeds. She is so cold and aloof to the point that she fails as a club that helps others. Hachiman is the only reason the club is succeeding at all.

No wonder the other girls harassed her so much she is suppose to be so perfect at everything and acts like that but she is actually quite the failure at being human. She might as well just be a robot with her personality and ego.

You should probably watch the series over if you're coming to this conclusion.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Kakkou

Zaimokuza is Zaimokuza.

Speaking of which, I liked the part where Zaimokuza gave him a thumbs up and Hikki looked away as if that was the most shameful part.

[Windows X]

I love how Yukinon reverse-friendzoned twice. Seriously, they had crush on each other since show started if you consider the way she acted based on recognizing that Hachiman saved that dog during car accident.

[ID555]

Originally Posted by Excorsism

You should probably watch the series over if you're coming to this conclusion.

Lol that's right. Her 'But I know you now' with a wink is the most *hnnnngh* thing ever.

[MisaoFan]

Originally Posted by Kakkou

I just love seeing Hachiman in 'action'. Not anyone can openly express themselves and commit social suicide like he does. That irresponsible attention whore deserved every single word she got.

Well, you can say this if you want, but to me, Sagami is seriously one of the few "villains" that get me into her in a few episodes. Too many people I come across hate her, but I just pity her. Despite with all these insults made by Hachiman, Sagami isn't a bad girl but seriously she have poorly done her role as chairman, I'll probably just miss her after all.

[usspaul]

Images

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