AnimeSuki Forums

Christen · 2009-07-30, 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

A rifle of that type would normally hold 6 or 7 bullets, but since it is sawed off, the magazine (the tube under the barrel) will be smaller, I'd say 4 or 5 bullets at best. The lever action will eject any round in the chamber, spent or loaded, and replace it with another from the magazine (if any bullets remain that is).

I would note though that this is a customized rifle. The normal version used a .30-30 caliber rifle round, while this one used long pistol rounds (.45 Colt) which are shorter. They say those with pistol round could hold between 9 and 13 rounds depending on the size of the bullet and the magazine. However these are still sawed off and thus have smaller than usual magazines (the barrel and magazine appear to be a third shorter than a normal rifle of this type). I'd still guess no more than 5 rounds.

Here's the TIPS related to your post. The rifle has 4+1 bullets.

Freelii · 2009-07-30, 22:42

While we're on the topic of shots fired by Natsuhi's gun after it is acquired by Battler... let's break it down!

The first shot Battler fires is at the butterfly that has landed on the portrait. The camera angle makes it impossible to see if he has moved the charge lever, but we DO see him pull the hammer back.

The second shot is preceded by Battler definately pulling the charging lever, because a smoking shell pops out. While the camera angle was the same for the first shot, no shell was visibly ejected during that sequence.

What I pull from this is that it seems that Natsuhi may not have fired at all. This depends entirely on the anime being completely consistant with gun mechanics though. Since we know from VN tips that the rifle can have 1 bullet in the firing chamber and 4 in a reserve magazine, the gun was most likely loaded in a 4+1 configuration when Battler picked it up. The sound effects when Battler first takes aim almost sounds like the charging lever being pulled, but no bullet is ejected. Therefore, either it was a neutral gun sound that TV likes to make guns have, or there was no bullet in the chamber. The possibility of there being no bullet in the chamber when Battler first aquires it is low because it would mean someone had manually removed the +1 bullet while the gun was in Natsuhi's possession. However, I don't recall her ever putting the gun down once she obtained it.

Back on topic, I submit that Battler fired the +1 round of the Winchester because of the lack of shell ejection in preperation of his first shot. He then fired the next round after ejecting the used shell.

Here's another piece of speculation that Natsuhi may not have fired. As I mentioned earlier, Battler manually cocked the hammer for his first shot. For this to work, the hammer would have to be in it's non-cocked position before Battler cocked it (obviously). The hammer would be in this position for 2 reasons:

1. Natsuhi had fired the weapon, but did not have a chance to pull the charging lever to eject the next shell, which would have in turn cocked the hammer for the next shot. This is standard mechanics for a semi-automatic weapon.
2. The gun was loaded in a 4+1 configuration, but the hammer was in a non-cocked position, as is the case when you carry a weapon with X+1 rounds for better safety.

The first one is obviously impossible because Battler did not eject a shell before his first shot, meaning the round in the chamber was live.

I propose this: Natsuhi attempted to fire the weapon without cocking the hammer beforehand. While I am not entirely familiar with Winchester rifles, I know from firing handguns that it is possible to fire one when the hammer is not yet cocked. It does, however, require a vastly higher amount of force and distance to pull the trigger all the way back, as opposed to when it is in a cocked position. If Natsuhi was surprised, she would not be ready to pull the trigger, much less have the time required to do so if the hammer was not cocked.

This is the alternative to the killer having a suppressed weapon as I initially suggested. The killing shot would have been the one that was heard, not Natsuhi's.

The biggest flaw to this, I think, is the passage in the VN that states that there was a faint smell of gunpowder coming from Natsuhi's gun. I am looking for a way to explain around this.

TLDR version:
-Battler fired the first 2 rounds of the 4+1 rounds, starting with the +1 round (the one already in the chamber).
-This is supported by the lack of shell ejection before the first shot, which DID accompany the second shot.
-This is also supported by the fact that Battler cocked the hammer, implying the gun was in a hard-to-fire state when it was in Natsuhi's possession.
-Natsuhi did not fire her weapon. The gun shot that was heard was that of the killer's weapon.
-This theory hangs ENTIRELY on the anime correctly portraying the state of Natsuhi's gun once acquired by Battler.
-This theory stands as an alternative to my supposition that the killer's weapon was suppressed. The suppression theory stands if the anime is innaccurate in it's portrayal of Natsuhi's gun.
-This theory's main flaw is the VN statement that a faint smell of gunpowder seemed to come from Natsuhi's gun when it was first observed by the cousins.

Jan-Poo · 2009-07-30, 22:57

Additionally in the VN Battler only fires once and not at a butterfly but at what he seem to think it's Beatrice's figure. Before firing he presses hard the level, a cartridge is ejected and a new one is loaded.

Frankly I'm kinda surprised that Battler in that situation was able to think straight and recharged the gun instead of pulling the trigger, considering he's not supposed to be familiar with gunfires. Uhm maybe Battler is a gun otaku!

Marion · 2009-07-30, 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Additionally in the VN Battler only fires once and not at a butterfly but at what he seem to think it's Beatrice's figure. Before firing he presses hard the level, a cartridge is ejected and a new one is loaded.

Frankly I'm kinda surprised that Battler in that situation was able to think straight and recharged the gun instead of pulling the trigger, considering he's not supposed to be familiar with gunfires. Uhm maybe Battler is a gun otaku!

Considering that Rudolf mentioned growing up on western films (like the wild west) it could be possible that Battler watched some as well.

Freelii · 2009-07-30, 23:03

And in the VN, it's not possible to tell if that round he ejected was spent or not...

The anime seems to imply that Natsuhi may not have fired, while in the VN it could be that Natsuhi fired, missed, and was killed by the killer's suppressed weapon OR did not fire and was killed by the killer's unsuppressed weapon, though the smell of gunpowder makes me lean towards the former.

Ithekro · 2009-07-30, 23:54

Battler's use of the weapon as seen is correct. In normal operation one would load the rifle to fill the magazine, then use the lever action to get one into the chamber, then load one more round into the magazine to get 4+1. Since we can see Natsuhi wasn't walking around with the weapon cocked, she either did not have a round in the chamber (she would have done that much at least), or she put the hammer down so the weapon would be safer. However she would need to pull the hammer back, or use the lever action to do it for her before she could fire.

All indications I have on this weapon is that the lever action is what is used to push the hammer back between shots (this is also a smokeless powder weapon by design...it is why Winchester made this model...also why there where over 7 million produced). I see no indication that this has double action in any way (being able to just pull the trigger to pull back the hammer and fire again). Battler needed to pull back the hammer or use the lever action to get the weapon ready to use...Natsuhi isn't seen doing this before she fires. However Battler is able to pull back the hammer and fire, thus there is a round in the chamber already.

At this point it comes down to little details. In the anime, if everything is shown correctly, there is no way Natsuhi fired that rifle....unless she was able to use the lever action before she died, and there just doesn't seem to be enough time for that...especially for a corpse. Also the hammer would be back already if she had. Also if Battler had used the lever action when he picked up the rifle he would not need to cock the hammer since the lever action does that when it ejects the spent cartridge.

The spent casings come out the top on this model. They are suppose to go just over the firers shoulder, but that doesn't always happen. However they don't go very far away. Generally somewhere around the users feet.

MeoTwister5 · 2009-07-31, 00:06

It's actually possible to even predict the caliber of a round and the type of gun used to fire it based on the sound the bullet makes when the gunpowder ignites and when the bullet exits the barrel.

Heck for all we know DEEN and Ryukishi did their researched and matched the sound with the actual gun (if ever) Ryukishi planned to have been used for killing Natsuhi.

Ithekro · 2009-07-31, 00:20

A captive bolt pistol is a contact device if I understand things correctly. One has to be able to press it against the victums head for it to work (used to "stun" cattle before slaughtering)

MeoTwister5 · 2009-07-31, 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

A captive bolt pistol is a contact device if I understand things correctly. One has to be able to press it against the victums head for it to work (used to "stun" cattle before slaughtering)

I'm pretty sure this device is illegal in some countries. Japan would likely outlaw this.

k//eternal · 2009-07-31, 00:28

It's not like Kinzo's shotguns were legal either, though...

Ithekro · 2009-07-31, 00:30

It is basically used at slaughter houses to "stun" livestock before they are bleed out so that the brain is out, but things like the heart are still working (also to reduce the pain the animal would experiance, both for the sake of the animal and the quality of the meat). According to the article, they've become more common usage in the European Union after the outbreak of "mad cow disease".

Aside from the sawed off natures of the weapons, Kinzo's firearms should be of the legal quality in Japan. Sports rifles and shotguns can be legally owned their. Also these models seem to be of the classical nature, meaning they might be very old.

MeoTwister5 · 2009-07-31, 00:32

The biggest problem however is the difference between the anime and the VN.

Specifically, which one is to be believed?

Anime watchers will think that Natsuhi got her brains splattered at almost the exact moment for the children to witness it, while VN players will believe there is a time lag between her death and the discover of her murder. The game makes it much more apparent that someone else shot her with another gun, while the VN makes the idea of a suicide a probable cause.

The only shared idea is a trap device, but we know that no trap or similar device was used to kill Natsuhi.

In the end anime viewers and VN players will have radically different POV on the matter.

Christen · 2009-07-31, 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

In the end anime viewers and VN players will have radically different POV on the matter.

That is actually helpful for us, since there can only be one truth. Multiple angles eliminate noise.

MeoTwister5 · 2009-07-31, 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christen

That is actually helpful for us, since there can only be one truth. Multiple angles eliminate noise.

Multiple angles on the same event yes, but we have multiple angles on two differing events, so not every angle from one can apply to the other, and this is what makes cross-speculation on Natsuhi's murder dificult.

Freelii · 2009-07-31, 01:43

It does look like we might have to wait for Ryukushi to throw us a bone on this one.. it's kind frustrating, but it feels like we've gotten as close to the truth as possible without more red text or a new perspective is provided in Episode 5 (the VN).

I've latched on to the theory that Kanon is the culprit with the accomplices being some/all/one of Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo.. of course, the motives are massively lacking as of yet, but the events of this first Episode seem to match up with Kanon being the prime suspect. Especially the anime's portrayal of Kanon's death.

..but I've also got that nagging voice in the back of my head that's reminding me of watanagashi-hen/meakashi-hen (aka mion vs shion) and it has me thinking Kanon + accomplices is almost too easy a conclusion to reach.

Of course, the frustration is part of the awesomeness of Higurashi and Umineko. I can't wait for the day months from now when I can look back and say "Man, that was so OBVIOUS I can't believe I missed that!"

Can't wait to see Episode 2 animated now. It'll help refresh my memory, and some scenes will take on a whole new perspective once I can see them outside my mind's eye.

tcaz2 · 2009-07-31, 02:45

There's also the fact that the whole scene from the anime is possibly noise. Yeah, Ryuukishi said he's checking it, but the anime gives no impression of Natsuhi having fired a shot when Battler picks up the rifle, while the VN is very clear that there's smoke coming from her gun, there's a gunpowder smell from it, and Battler reloads before he fires.

I'm thinking at this point that we either should really take the way things play out in the anime with a grain of salt, if not ignore it entirely... because it's radically different impressions of the scene.

MeoTwister5 · 2009-07-31, 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcaz2

There's also the fact that the whole scene from the anime is possibly noise. Yeah, Ryuukishi said he's checking it, but the anime gives no impression of Natsuhi having fired a shot when Battler picks up the rifle, while the VN is very clear that there's smoke coming from her gun, there's a gunpowder smell from it, and Battler reloads before he fires.

I'm thinking at this point that we either should really take the way things play out in the anime with a grain of salt, if not ignore it entirely... because it's radically different impressions of the scene.

In that case, the anime-only viewers are left out in the cold, being fed a scene that isn't canon (pardon the pun). That's going to create friction between people who are stuck with whatever the anime shows and those who think the VN is truth.

tcaz2 · 2009-07-31, 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

In that case, the anime-only viewers are left out in the cold, being fed a scene that isn't canon (pardon the pun). That's going to create friction between people who are stuck with whatever the anime shows and those who think the VN is truth.

It's true, I'm hoping it doesn't come to that... but it's a possibility we should keep in mind.

Seagull · 2009-07-31, 03:34

With the way that the anime is paced, it's most likely going to be the issue.

Jan-Poo · 2009-07-31, 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

A captive bolt pistol is a contact device if I understand things correctly. One has to be able to press it against the victums head for it to work (used to "stun" cattle before slaughtering)

The one being used in the movie/book I mentioned is a modified version that can snipe from afar. But as I said I'm very skeptical of its actual effectiveness. I mean if such thing could be possible there would be a lot of them, since it makes no sound and leaves no bullets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcaz2

There's also the fact that the whole scene from the anime is possibly noise. Yeah, Ryuukishi said he's checking it, but the anime gives no impression of Natsuhi having fired a shot when Battler picks up the rifle, while the VN is very clear that there's smoke coming from her gun, there's a gunpowder smell from it, and Battler reloads before he fires.

I'm thinking at this point that we either should really take the way things play out in the anime with a grain of salt, if not ignore it entirely... because it's radically different impressions of the scene.

I guess that unless Beatrice appears and say in red "there is no error in the anime", you can't be sure of anything.

I'm leaning toward the idea that the anime simply forgot to make Battler recharge the gun. However I can't completely deny the possibility that Natsuhi didn't fire.

Remember how Battler said that the last seat in the dinner table was prepared for Maria's father? Remember how he said that Kinzo recovered the Ushiromiya's wealth in 20 years when it's actually more like 30 years? So now even if he said that the smell came from Natsuhi's gun, as I said, a human being cannot clearly discern the source of an odor. It's not like he's seen the smoke. So if the culprit fired the gun from a close position, Battler might have been deceived into thinking that the odor came from Natsuhi's gun because he couldn't think there could be another gun (as proven from the fact he illogically thought it was suicide). He then recharged the gun without noticing that the bullet wasn't spent.

Kinda far-fatched, but not impossible.

2009-07-30, 22:42	Link #1622
Freelii (￣▽￣)ノ Join Date: May 2009 Location: Dodging spoilers...	While we're on the topic of shots fired by Natsuhi's gun after it is acquired by Battler... let's break it down! The first shot Battler fires is at the butterfly that has landed on the portrait. The camera angle makes it impossible to see if he has moved the charge lever, but we DO see him pull the hammer back. The second shot is preceded by Battler definately pulling the charging lever, because a smoking shell pops out. While the camera angle was the same for the first shot, no shell was visibly ejected during that sequence. What I pull from this is that it seems that Natsuhi may not have fired at all. This depends entirely on the anime being completely consistant with gun mechanics though. Since we know from VN tips that the rifle can have 1 bullet in the firing chamber and 4 in a reserve magazine, the gun was most likely loaded in a 4+1 configuration when Battler picked it up. The sound effects when Battler first takes aim almost sounds like the charging lever being pulled, but no bullet is ejected. Therefore, either it was a neutral gun sound that TV likes to make guns have, or there was no bullet in the chamber. The possibility of there being no bullet in the chamber when Battler first aquires it is low because it would mean someone had manually removed the +1 bullet while the gun was in Natsuhi's possession. However, I don't recall her ever putting the gun down once she obtained it. Back on topic, I submit that Battler fired the +1 round of the Winchester because of the lack of shell ejection in preperation of his first shot. He then fired the next round after ejecting the used shell. Here's another piece of speculation that Natsuhi may not have fired. As I mentioned earlier, Battler manually cocked the hammer for his first shot. For this to work, the hammer would have to be in it's non-cocked position before Battler cocked it (obviously). The hammer would be in this position for 2 reasons: 1. Natsuhi had fired the weapon, but did not have a chance to pull the charging lever to eject the next shell, which would have in turn cocked the hammer for the next shot. This is standard mechanics for a semi-automatic weapon. 2. The gun was loaded in a 4+1 configuration, but the hammer was in a non-cocked position, as is the case when you carry a weapon with X+1 rounds for better safety. The first one is obviously impossible because Battler did not eject a shell before his first shot, meaning the round in the chamber was live. I propose this: Natsuhi attempted to fire the weapon without cocking the hammer beforehand. While I am not entirely familiar with Winchester rifles, I know from firing handguns that it is possible to fire one when the hammer is not yet cocked. It does, however, require a vastly higher amount of force and distance to pull the trigger all the way back, as opposed to when it is in a cocked position. If Natsuhi was surprised, she would not be ready to pull the trigger, much less have the time required to do so if the hammer was not cocked. This is the alternative to the killer having a suppressed weapon as I initially suggested. The killing shot would have been the one that was heard, not Natsuhi's. The biggest flaw to this, I think, is the passage in the VN that states that there was a faint smell of gunpowder coming from Natsuhi's gun. I am looking for a way to explain around this. TLDR version: -Battler fired the first 2 rounds of the 4+1 rounds, starting with the +1 round (the one already in the chamber). -This is supported by the lack of shell ejection before the first shot, which DID accompany the second shot. -This is also supported by the fact that Battler cocked the hammer, implying the gun was in a hard-to-fire state when it was in Natsuhi's possession. -Natsuhi did not fire her weapon. The gun shot that was heard was that of the killer's weapon. -This theory hangs ENTIRELY on the anime correctly portraying the state of Natsuhi's gun once acquired by Battler. -This theory stands as an alternative to my supposition that the killer's weapon was suppressed. The suppression theory stands if the anime is innaccurate in it's portrayal of Natsuhi's gun. -This theory's main flaw is the VN statement that a faint smell of gunpowder seemed to come from Natsuhi's gun when it was first observed by the cousins. Last edited by Freelii; 2009-07-30 at 22:54. Reason: sentence structure, added a few statements to better clarify

2009-07-30, 22:57	Link #1623
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Additionally in the VN Battler only fires once and not at a butterfly but at what he seem to think it's Beatrice's figure. Before firing he presses hard the level, a cartridge is ejected and a new one is loaded. Frankly I'm kinda surprised that Battler in that situation was able to think straight and recharged the gun instead of pulling the trigger, considering he's not supposed to be familiar with gunfires. Uhm maybe Battler is a gun otaku! __________________

2009-07-30, 23:54	Link #1626
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Battler's use of the weapon as seen is correct. In normal operation one would load the rifle to fill the magazine, then use the lever action to get one into the chamber, then load one more round into the magazine to get 4+1. Since we can see Natsuhi wasn't walking around with the weapon cocked, she either did not have a round in the chamber (she would have done that much at least), or she put the hammer down so the weapon would be safer. However she would need to pull the hammer back, or use the lever action to do it for her before she could fire. All indications I have on this weapon is that the lever action is what is used to push the hammer back between shots (this is also a smokeless powder weapon by design...it is why Winchester made this model...also why there where over 7 million produced). I see no indication that this has double action in any way (being able to just pull the trigger to pull back the hammer and fire again). Battler needed to pull back the hammer or use the lever action to get the weapon ready to use...Natsuhi isn't seen doing this before she fires. However Battler is able to pull back the hammer and fire, thus there is a round in the chamber already. At this point it comes down to little details. In the anime, if everything is shown correctly, there is no way Natsuhi fired that rifle....unless she was able to use the lever action before she died, and there just doesn't seem to be enough time for that...especially for a corpse. Also the hammer would be back already if she had. Also if Battler had used the lever action when he picked up the rifle he would not need to cock the hammer since the lever action does that when it ejects the spent cartridge. The spent casings come out the top on this model. They are suppose to go just over the firers shoulder, but that doesn't always happen. However they don't go very far away. Generally somewhere around the users feet. __________________ Last edited by Ithekro; 2009-07-31 at 00:12.

2009-07-31, 00:06	Link #1627
MeoTwister5 Komrades of Kitamura Kou Join Date: Jul 2004 Age: 39	It's actually possible to even predict the caliber of a round and the type of gun used to fire it based on the sound the bullet makes when the gunpowder ignites and when the bullet exits the barrel. Heck for all we know DEEN and Ryukishi did their researched and matched the sound with the actual gun (if ever) Ryukishi planned to have been used for killing Natsuhi. __________________ Medical Student vs. Anime Last Exile - Fam the Silver Wing -

2009-07-31, 00:20	Link #1628
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	A captive bolt pistol is a contact device if I understand things correctly. One has to be able to press it against the victums head for it to work (used to "stun" cattle before slaughtering) __________________

2009-07-30, 23:03	Link #1625
Freelii (￣▽￣)ノ Join Date: May 2009 Location: Dodging spoilers...	And in the VN, it's not possible to tell if that round he ejected was spent or not... The anime seems to imply that Natsuhi may not have fired, while in the VN it could be that Natsuhi fired, missed, and was killed by the killer's suppressed weapon OR did not fire and was killed by the killer's unsuppressed weapon, though the smell of gunpowder makes me lean towards the former.

2009-07-31, 00:28	Link #1630
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	It's not like Kinzo's shotguns were legal either, though...

2009-07-31, 00:30	Link #1631
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	It is basically used at slaughter houses to "stun" livestock before they are bleed out so that the brain is out, but things like the heart are still working (also to reduce the pain the animal would experiance, both for the sake of the animal and the quality of the meat). According to the article, they've become more common usage in the European Union after the outbreak of "mad cow disease". Aside from the sawed off natures of the weapons, Kinzo's firearms should be of the legal quality in Japan. Sports rifles and shotguns can be legally owned their. Also these models seem to be of the classical nature, meaning they might be very old. __________________

2009-07-31, 00:32	Link #1632
MeoTwister5 Komrades of Kitamura Kou Join Date: Jul 2004 Age: 39	The biggest problem however is the difference between the anime and the VN. Specifically, which one is to be believed? Anime watchers will think that Natsuhi got her brains splattered at almost the exact moment for the children to witness it, while VN players will believe there is a time lag between her death and the discover of her murder. The game makes it much more apparent that someone else shot her with another gun, while the VN makes the idea of a suicide a probable cause. The only shared idea is a trap device, but we know that no trap or similar device was used to kill Natsuhi. In the end anime viewers and VN players will have radically different POV on the matter. __________________ Medical Student vs. Anime Last Exile - Fam the Silver Wing -

2009-07-31, 01:43	Link #1635
Freelii (￣▽￣)ノ Join Date: May 2009 Location: Dodging spoilers...	It does look like we might have to wait for Ryukushi to throw us a bone on this one.. it's kind frustrating, but it feels like we've gotten as close to the truth as possible without more red text or a new perspective is provided in Episode 5 (the VN). I've latched on to the theory that Kanon is the culprit with the accomplices being some/all/one of Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo.. of course, the motives are massively lacking as of yet, but the events of this first Episode seem to match up with Kanon being the prime suspect. Especially the anime's portrayal of Kanon's death. ..but I've also got that nagging voice in the back of my head that's reminding me of watanagashi-hen/meakashi-hen (aka mion vs shion) and it has me thinking Kanon + accomplices is almost too easy a conclusion to reach. Of course, the frustration is part of the awesomeness of Higurashi and Umineko. I can't wait for the day months from now when I can look back and say "Man, that was so OBVIOUS I can't believe I missed that!" Can't wait to see Episode 2 animated now. It'll help refresh my memory, and some scenes will take on a whole new perspective once I can see them outside my mind's eye.

2009-07-31, 02:45	Link #1636
tcaz2 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009	There's also the fact that the whole scene from the anime is possibly noise. Yeah, Ryuukishi said he's checking it, but the anime gives no impression of Natsuhi having fired a shot when Battler picks up the rifle, while the VN is very clear that there's smoke coming from her gun, there's a gunpowder smell from it, and Battler reloads before he fires. I'm thinking at this point that we either should really take the way things play out in the anime with a grain of salt, if not ignore it entirely... because it's radically different impressions of the scene.

2009-07-31, 03:34	Link #1639
Seagull MIA, Rokkenjima Join Date: Jul 2009	With the way that the anime is paced, it's most likely going to be the issue.