[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[AC-Phoenix]

They said something like this in the VN:

If your beloved one dies and the two of you had a child it would be just natural for the surviving partner to devote their whole life to that child.

For this case:
Kinzo would have a reason to listen to Dr. Nanjo
he would take medicine and stop drinking in order to not make Lion sad.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by Oliver

It feels like someone writing a believable story based on fragmentary information and getting a lot of minor details wrong.

Wait a minute.

Add to that the copy-pasted faces, and we have something that Bern may have written.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Actually when you think about it, it's perfectly plausible for the entire Dlanor squad to be absent given that Erika has been erased from the game, assuming Dlanor and her pair are bound to Erika. Likewise it would also make sense for Knox's Rules to no longer apply as it was Erika who insisted on their existence in the first place.

It was Bernkastel.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

Add to that the copy-pasted faces, and we have something that Bern may have written.

My opinion of the episode so far is that this is a text written by Bernkastel but based on assembled fan theories which usually don't go into more detail than "Kinzo's gold came from Italy", no more and no less.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It was Bernkastel.

Not to mention that Battler used the Knox rules to reach the answer.

[ArcticHelm]

I have to agree with you on the sub-and-gold thing Oliver. Also the fan theory with Quadrillion & train station never made sense to me since the station that is actually used in the theory was supposed to have been made in the 90's so it can't be a part of Umineko's epitaph.

[Oliver]

I wouldn't discount everything completely -- that Bernkastel wrote it based on fan theories doesn't immediately mean they're false.

Unfortunately it also doesn't mean at all that any of them is true. The episode is basically presenting points which will either survive in Ep8 or be smashed to bits in a cruel fashion. We've been given food for thought but nothing that gives us any answers we haven't gotten already, nor any proper assurance that any answers we got are correct.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Oliver

My opinion of the episode so far is that this is a text written by Bernkastel but based on assembled fan theories which usually don't go into more detail than "Kinzo's gold came from Italy", no more and no less.

Bern said in the EP6 tea party that she was going to be the reader for the story, and that the reader has a right to change what they emphasize and the tone of voice they use. That made it sound almost like she was going to take an existing game and reinterpret it, rather than construct a new game.

Originally Posted by ArcticHelm

I have to agree with you on the sub-and-gold thing Oliver. Also the fan theory with Quadrillion & train station never made sense to me since the station that is actually used in the theory was supposed to have been made in the 90's so it can't be a part of Umineko's epitaph.

You're thinking of the new Qilian station. There was an older one on the same line that was still in use when the epitaph was written.

[ArcticHelm]

I see o-o) I wasn't able to find out anything about that when I checked. >: /inept

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Bern said in the EP6 tea party that she was going to be the reader for the story, and that the reader has a right to change what they emphasize and the tone of voice they use. That made it sound almost like she was going to take an existing game and reinterpret it, rather than construct a new game.

That does not really imply that the game she would have reinterpreted is an "official" one, though, does it?

[ArcticHelm]

Bern's idea of reader's privilege seems involves stringing together a bunch of nasty things between what serves as a front and back cover. I'm still trying to figure out what I read let alone what is actually important.... really makes me wish I had a few more years of Japanese studying under my belt. ` ~`)

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Oliver

If anyone cares about my opinion... The whole submarine story contains lots of subtle things that make me think it is not true.

• Batteries that vent chlorine gas. Such batteries do not exist!
• Gold of quite unclear provenance. (Wartime faded stamping? Whom are you kidding? Notice that Nanjo also mentions it might have been a double-headed eagle before it 'faded'.)
• Characters seem to think they would be extradited to Italy. I find that highly unlikely in this kind of wartime situation in 1944.
• 9mm Beretta which the reference sources list as .380 ACP caliber - sure, same thing, but Japanese Wikipedia also does.
• A large sub in the hands of RSI. RSI didn't get any.
• Sub looks like a modern nuclear vessel, and does not match any Italian ship classes. Don't tell me Ryukishi doesn't know what one looks like, he knows what Kaiten manned torpedo is!

It feels like someone writing a believable story based on fragmentary information and getting a lot of minor details wrong. Which brings the fragmentary information itself into question.

The EP7 said that because the submarine hit a naval mine such that the engine was leaking chlorine gas. Could it be electrolysis of electrolyte (KCl?)?

RSI might not have a submarine. But we don't know how Beatrice's father (high-ranked official in RSI) acquired the submarine. Perhaps through Germany?

The "double eagle" stamping may be intentionally erased to hide the origin of the gold by Beatrice's father. Obviously they were Nazi gold.

And the game said that these gold were supposed to help rebuild the former Italy. Therefore Beatrice's group were afraid of being exposed since RSI (controlled by Nazi) was their actual enemy. It was understandable that they were afraid of being extradited (while 10ton gold being taken by Jap gov).

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by ijriims

The EP7 said that because the submarine hit a naval mine such that the engine was leaking chlorine gas. Could it be electrolysis of electrolyte (KCl?)?

Sorry, these should be lead-acid batteries, no other battery technology was in use at the time as far as I'm aware. H₂SO₄. There is nothing in the submarine that it can react with to produce chlorine gas. Lead-acid batteries produce hydrogen when charged, which has no ill effects on health until it explodes...

Originally Posted by ijriims

RSI might not have a submarine. But we don't know how Beatrice's father (high-ranked official in RSI) acquired the submarine. Perhaps through Germany?

Numerously referenced as Italian... and like I said, the design is that of a modern nuclear powered submarine. And Italian and German submarines of the era also looked distinct between each other.

These are all small things not directly relevant to the plot - they're just mistakes I think Kinzo, who is supposed to have been telling this story, could not have made.

[ijriims]

Read this http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...659C946496D6CF
Chlorine gas is produced when sea water gets into battery

And this is one italian submarine used in WWII

Spoiler for To save space:

Quite similar to what is drawn in the game, I think

[Oliver]

Ok, while I agree I was wrong about chlorine, this sub is definitely not like the one on the picture.

[ArcticHelm]

It doesn't look like a sandwich at all. . _.)

[Digdri]

That idea is really intriguing that Bern just put fan theories together with the community as the "GM" and embellished them with some not really well researched ideas the same way the fan community string up all those ridiculous theories in the first place.

Also it would fit the whole setup rather well after Ryu07 going all metafictional on us for 2 stories straight. And after all this embellishment stuff was always part of GM'ing in Umineko.

I guess in that case those "errors" in the story of the subs are meant to be a big hint as Ryu07 has proven multiple times that he isn't the type of author to mess up researching the background for the topics he is dealing with.
That would also fit what he said in his interviews of the more subtle solution and his apple riddle comparison.
By just mashing all the major fan theories together in one tale he gives every fan the option to catch up on what the community was talking about for like the last year or more but still while those who never came up with this crazy stuff for themselves make "bite" all those who already talked about the minor details would notice those major hiccups and inconsistencies which reveal the "clueless" embelllishment stuff.
That really matches his vision of solution rather well.

I also laught really hard about this stuff how the "bad" meshup sprite may be intentional.
Well think about this! That makes sense if he tried to mimic fan fiction stuff here. Fan really looooove this photoshops. They put them on NicoVideo and really celebrate all this craziness. Their is no why he could be oblivious to this.
Wouldn't this be really like crazy awesome if he really only put this meshup in for the lulz and to make it look amateurish and presented e.g. a real young Kinzo sprite in EP8. I wouldn't mind that kind of trolling. Far to amusingly eccentric. Perhaps thats may just be wishful thing to ignore what he has done but after all that was the long sommer time frame between Comiket so its unlikely thats was a problem of time constraints. He also never did this copy/paste stuff to this extent (at least not by diving down with the quality) and most of all it would fit his style.

We should know by now that Ryu07 goes to great lengths to put "unfitting" or "low quality" stuff in his works just to make you thing and get some bizarre message across in subtext. Alien invasion Rena, Laser Blade Kanon, >9k Punching a Goat, "Mary Sue" Erika, endless discussions about "love" in EP6 while simultaniously mocking it... he is doing it all the time, so why not taking it to the next level of "trolling".

Perhaps thats even an extension of his whole core arcs concept:
In EP5 he deconstructed the detective solving approach.
In EP6 he was messing with the love story part and twisting it in strange ways.
Perhaps now he is deconstructing the fan community involvement in his novels. I think its common knowledge how much importance and influence the community has on his style of writing and structuring the plot for a long time. He already said this in those really old Akihabara interviews. So why not also bringing this into the meta narrative if he even discusses trust of the readers etc.

Also: Was I the only one to automatically think back at TahYllis version of Kinzo and his antics when I read how he is bemoaning his lost submarine.
Perhaps he also just wanted his share on making Kinzo the "weirdest grandpa EVAAAA" (almost write 'alive' here )

BTW would that stuff make EP7 his own author created fanfiction?

Another more serious question: Wasn't there a extra TIPS text lately which had some talk about how Kinzo may have gotten the gold? Don't remember that well how it played out. How does this fit this submarine theory at all?

Also doesn't this "double eagle" stuff meant that this family's insignia everybody is sooooo proud of is essentially half a Nazi symbol? Well THAT would be a really f***ed up construction.
(Especially considering how pride in history / symbolism and everything about the Nazis really mixes to some very explosive topic)

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Digdri

Also doesn't this "double eagle" stuff meant that this family's insignia everybody is sooooo proud of is essentially half a Nazi symbol? Well THAT would be a really f***ed up construction.
(Especially considering how pride in history / symbolism and everything about the Nazis really mixes to some very explosive topic)

The eagle Nanjo refers to is the symbol on the flag of RSI and is the symbol of modern Italian neo-nazism, so yeah.

The double headed eagle he mentions and immediately retracts is the symbol of Russian Empire (and modern Russia) and would be present if the gold had a Russian source - which it could, as I have detailed a long time ago, but that would mean no Italian Beatrice.

[UsagiTenpura]

Meh I think it's not a fair answer. To begin with we didn't learn about Quadrillion until ep 2. Meaning Ryukishi made his fans waste 6 months trying to solve something they couldn't solve, that's a first very bad point to me.

Then it's as you say, the church is way too obvious, you don't need an epitaph to guess the gold could be hidden there. Since the Qilian solution basically tells you "look for some device around the church" then I don't see why no one did before. The gold should've been found forever ago. The sequence to enter uppon said device are also very limited so a bit of trial and error and you'd have solved it.

Basically just knowing there's a device somewhere outside as told in arc 5 gives more of a solution then the entire "Qilian" solution.

I just have to hope I'm right about arc 7 being nothing more then internet theories given shape.

[YdoUask]

Hey, so speculating on Dine's 12 laws.

1 is more or less the same as Knox's 8, right?

From 2, I guess that means that the giant troll in EP 3 actually happened (Battler was working with the culprit, and almost completely sided with them, perhaps evidence of George mastermind?). Also, this would mean that almost, or perhaps all, meta-scenes (but perhaps not meta-meta, that is to say only gameboard witch scenes) have significance.

3 is the one that bugs me. It would mean that George never actually gets engaged to Shannon, and the whole "Without Love It Can't Be Seen" thing is a lie. Or, combining with EP 6's version of marriage, Shannon could serve George in the arcs where she receives the ring, but does not love him. Perhaps this rule, like Knox's 5th, will be edited out.

4 is Knox 7, 5 is Knox 6,

6, this explains the basis of Detective Authority

7, explains why Erika knew there would be a murder (she was acknowledged as a detective, there must be a corpse in a detective novel, P therefore Q)

8 is more or less Knox 2 (though they mention slate writing, yet when the epitaph was being solved, I definitely heard rocks or something moving, though its probably irrelevant as I think it was just trying to show the solution to the epitaph is a little more exciting way)

9...is interesting. It says there can only be one detective, going on to say that if there was more than one detective, it would be like following a relay team. So... is Battler Erika?

10 Culprit must have played an important part. This is similar to Knox's 1st, but narrows it down. By Knox's 1st Asumu could have still been the culprit. But with this, it must have been someone who has played an important part, though I suppose it could be argued that the EP 4 Battler existence denial was such an important part, I think it would mean it must be someone that we have seen.

11 A servant is not the culprit (would this imply that they are not mastermind either? Probably, but I believe it is still debatable. However, given the Tea Party of EP 7, it didn't look like solving without servant culprits wold be as hard as previously thought, then again, I wasn't able to read most of the Tea Party so... yeah)

12 (last? if 3 is not included, 2nd to last) There must be one person to blame for the crime, that person may have a co-plotter/minor assistant. (Everyone could not kill everyone else. This then begs the question, is it limited to one assistant? As Bernkastle showed in the Tea Party, both Eva and Kyrie killed people (Rudolf was Kyrie's "assistant"), why didn't Wright just use rule 12 to say it was a load of non-sense? This could mean that 1. Kyrie intended to not kill Eva, so that she would kill others, making her an "assistant" in accordance with this rule (however, this would confirm that a "mastermind" can have more than one assistant) 2. No one would blame Eva for her actions, they would blame Kyrie for shooting her and would take Eva's actions as rightful revenge, or 3. Perhaps Bernkastle was thinking on a grand scale. The crime was the bomb, not the murders, therefore this rule does not apply)

13 (last, probably not included, Knox's was still called a Decalogue even though 5 was removed. And even then, this would only be if 3 is skipped, due to overarching theme of love) Secret Societies, Mafia etc- do not have a role in a detective novel. (So the murderer can't be a member of such a group, so I guess this rules out Kyrie=Kasumi? I'm personally hoping that either 3 is amended to mean, the Culprit must not have a love interest, because otherwise 13 seems like kind of a waste...)

So yeah, thats just my interpretation