Character Discussion - Lelouch

[ChainLegacy]

One must admit that in recent episodes, Lelouch has made some 'mistakes.' I am still a stalwart supporter of him, I have always sympathized with his situation and I enjoy seeing his plans in action. Then again, I have always been a sucker for the anti-hero type (which somewhat describes Lelouch).

I don't think he has ever been completely sincere in his remarks about helping others, he is a politician at heart. He has always seemed to me like a calculating and neutral leader, and manipulating others is one of his specialties (even without his Geass). Having him be emotionally driven, at times, especially in recent episodes, makes him a better character, in my opinion - he has a pretty good balance of the cold and off-standing leader whilst still being emotionally attached.

[nicksez4]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

He was incredibly intelligent often challenging his older siblings, Clovis and Schneizel to chess matches; remaining undefeated to Clovis while it is hinted that Schneizel proved a difficult match for him.

Not like it really matters, but I do want to point out that in one of the more recent episodes,

Spoiler for R2 Episode 9:

During the party, Lelouch challenges Schneizel to a game of chess. During this game, Lelouch thinks back to when he would face his siblings (not a flashback), and thinks about how Schneizel was the only one he could not defeat.

Not too important, just figured a small change wouldn't hurt.

One thing that I wonder is:

Spoiler for End of R2 Episode 13:

How will Shirley's death affect Lelouch's character? Obviously in episode 14, he immediately sent out an attack squad to destroy all the people who can use Geass, but after he confront's Charles, how is he going to act? Assuming he has to resume school life soon, if his maid continues to act like she did, somewhere along the line, someone is bound to be suspicious.

Anyway, that's just a thought that came to mind. Lelouch is an overall awesome character.

[Aquaman OS]

I don't think he cares about school life anymore. There's little point in going back to Ashford since only Rivalz is there and Nunnally is no longer a hostage. Plus the fact is the Emperor already knows who he is and always did, he isn't fooling anybody and is most likely going to be told just that next ep.

Note that Lelouch took everybody to China with him, Villetta Rolo and Sayoko. He's more or less done being Lelouch Lamperouge. Now he's either Zero or Lelouch vi Britannia. He's got no more reason to hide as the cats already out of the bag and always has been. It's just about time for action. Presumably whatever Lelouch sees next ep will shake him to his core and change his attitude.

[nicksez4]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

I don't think he cares about school life anymore.

Well, other than Charles, there's also the 7 Knights of Round to defeat, and anyone else who could succeed Charles. He would have to keep up the facade, or his cover would be blown, and he would be assaulted by them all immediately.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Plus the fact is the Emperor already knows who he is and always did, he isn't fooling anybody and is most likely going to be told just that next ep.

Even though Charles knows that Lelouch is Zero, Suzaku has a very good suspicion, but he doesn't know exactly if it is him or not due to Lelouch's maid taking his place during Zero-type events. Anya and Gino were moved to Ashford because of the suspicion, which means its still not 100% positive to anyone other than Charles, CC, and Kallen that Lelouch is Zero.

[Aquaman OS]

No Gino went to Ashford to have fun and chill with Suzaku, and Anya went to question Lelouch about why she had a picture of him. Neither of them had any clue about Zero.

And what does it matter if they know anyway? As long as he's with the Order he'll have an equal chance of being captured or killed whether they know he's Zero or not. He has no reason to be at Ashford anymore.

Nunnally is no longer in direct danger and she has Suzaku Anya and Gilford looking out for her, so it doesn't matter anyway. She's not a helpless hostage like he thought she was.

They sent Jeremiah to him, and he only lucked out that Jeremiah was more loyal to his mother than the Cult. But either way he knows they know now. There's no longer any point for him at Ashford (and really since neither Milly Shirley or Kallen will be there anymore its not like it will be interesting there anyway)

So lets just spare ourselves the boredom and move on.

[nicksez4]

Well, I see your point, just one quick thing...

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

They sent Jeremiah to him, and he only lucked out that Jeremiah was more loyal to his mother than the Cult.

VV was the only one who even mentioned Lelouch was Zero to Jeremiah. They never sent him, he went of his own free will. You are right about him being more loyal to Marianne, but he wanted revenge against Lelouch, which is why he went after him.

[ZeroSama]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Until they are ordered to shoot themselves right?

I was refering to geass as a method of interrogation in response to the previous poster. If used for questioning it has no drawbacks other than a slight memory inconsistency.

Drugs on the other hand will either lead to physiological or phscyological dependency(refrain) or just result in turning the person being interrogated into a vegetable(if a proper truth serum like scophalimine is used).

Originally Posted by Orga777

Then Lelouch is just proving he is no better. So he already has failed in his mission really. Replacing one tyrant with another is not good at all.

It does not change the fact that from a Britannian perspective what he is doing is an acceptable method. The road to the throne is based on proving that you are the most successful and therefore the most suitable candidate. By killing all his rival's he is proving that he is the superior one, whether it be because of resourcefullness, intelliegence or guile. This is likely how the sucessor to the throne has always been chosen.

Originally Posted by Var

And I am not saying it is good, but that Britannian history has justified the methods Charles used to take power, as such has justified Lelouch methods to seek power.

His methods are perfectly justifiable. Suzaku may have a problem if the Emperor admits that the methods Lulu is using are an acceptable method for claiming the throne. Hell it would be great if Lulu ended up on the throne and Suzaku, being the Britannian dog that he is had to follow all his orders with a "yes your majesty" for ironies sake.

[Aquaman OS]

V.V. sent him. Against Charles orders but he sent him as he said on Ep 14. Jeremiah only went to see exactly what Lelouch's deal was but he was still informed about Lelouch by V.V. as his first scene this season shows.

So yeah Lelouch knew his cover was compromised when Jeremiah showed up. That might be why he didn't even bother trying in ep 14. He took everyone involved with him and disappeared to China not even showing up for Shirley's funeral or telling anybody where he went. He took Sayoko too despite her not participating in the mission or having a point in coming with him. Why wouldn't he have her cover for him unless he knew it was pointless. The fact that he brought Sayoko too suggests he doesn't plan on going back.

[nicksez4]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

V.V. sent him. Against Charles orders but he sent him as he said on Ep 14. Jeremiah only went to see exactly what Lelouch's deal was but he was still informed about Lelouch by V.V. as his first scene this season shows.

So yeah Lelouch knew his cover was compromised when Jeremiah showed up. That might be why he didn't even bother trying in ep 14. He took everyone involved with him and disappeared to China not even showing up for Shirley's funeral or telling anybody where he went. He took Sayoko too despite her not participating in the mission or having a point in coming with him. Why wouldn't he have her cover for him unless he knew it was pointless. The fact that he brought Sayoko too suggests he doesn't plan on going back.

Im not sure V.V. even sent him, but ill take your word for it.

as for why he didn't try to hide it: The people he was talking to already knew he was zero, so he had no reason to hide it. Also, a reason why he may not have show up for Shirley's funeral (a reason he could use that is) is he was over come with grief, or something to that effect. He never tells anyone where he's going though, so that's not an issue. I will admit though, he may not be going back since he took Sayoko, but I won't say that's a definate till I see it happen.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by nicksez4

Im not sure V.V. even sent him, but ill take your word for it.

Charles, "Brother, is it true you sent an assassin after Lelouch?"

VV, "Thanks to that I invited this reprisal."

I think that's concrete enough.

[Diedrupo]

These last few episodes have made me wonder just how evil Charles actually is.

Yep, they have done a really good job painting Charles as completely misunderstood on pretty much everything. Sure he's racist/darwinist, but that's not a trait to really hate him on. He seems to hate war, despise V.V.'s attempt to kill Lelouch, and most importantly, when he did have the chance to deal with Lelouch, he did the most merciful thing he could have done: wiped Lelouch's memories and allowed him to return to a normal happy school life. Any other evil emperor would have executed or imprisoned him.

Perhaps Charles KNOWS that it might be time for him to step aside, and his master plan has been to groom Lelouch all this time? (I could even mention Marianne being alive and partaking in this entire thing for the same reason, but that'd be a huge copout plot twist that I would hate).

Originally Posted by ZeroSama

His methods are perfectly justifiable. Suzaku may have a problem if the Emperor admits that the methods Lulu is using are an acceptable method for claiming the throne. Hell it would be great if Lulu ended up on the throne and Suzaku, being the Britannian dog that he is had to follow all his orders with a "yes your majesty" for ironies sake.

They are justified from a birthright and throne ascension standpoint, but that isn't anything like what Suzaku is or was fighting for, which is peace. I don't even see why Var has to go and invalidate Suzaku's cause because Lelouch is the only one (of the two) justified in killing his siblings on the way to the throne. Lelouch may be unknowingly fighting to become the next emperor but Suzaku certainly isn't.

And that ending wouldn't be ironic, it would be what Lelouch would want. He has no real reason to hate Suzaku, as other than stopping him from killing certain important characters throughout S1, Suzaku hasn't done anything to cause emotional pain to Lelouch (that he is aware of). He'd rather Suzaku come back to his side.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Then Lelouch is just proving he is no better. So he already has failed in his mission really. Replacing one tyrant with another is not good at all.

And you are sure that Lelouch is looking for form another dictatorship? He wanted to change Britannia because it was rotten and cannot be changed. It if doubtful he will set up the same system with the same flaws.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Diedrupo

They are justified from a birthright and throne ascension standpoint, but that isn't anything like what Suzaku is or was fighting for, which is peace. I don't even see why Var has to go and invalidate Suzaku's cause because Lelouch is the only one (of the two) justified in killing his siblings on the way to the throne. Lelouch may be unknowingly fighting to become the next emperor but Suzaku certainly isn't.

Wait, how did I get into this as invalidating Suzaku? My point is that, if looked at from the ascension point of view, Lelouch's killings of his siblings are justified by Britannian History. I do not remember saying anything about Suzaku's cause, I said that Suzaku is going against his birthright, while Lelouch was not.

Suzaku's cause is 'noble' on the outside, but for the vast majority of Season 1, he had a martyr complex so that he could find justification for what he had done. Now, I can argue that his objective has been corrupted by the system. His recent actions are making me believe it more and more. Suzaku is slowly losing his Japanese side, his birthright, and becoming a Britannian. Nonetheless, I've never mentioned anything about his cause, just his own fate.

Lelouch, on the other hand, is following in his father's footsteps. But unlike Charles, as we saw in Ep.14, he is disillusioned to being able to change Britannia, he, like his father, has come to understand that everything must be destroyed for the rot in the system to be removed.

Take Charles as the embodiment of both Lelouch and Suzaku, with Suzaku's intention, but Lelouch's methods. It shows that Lelouch's methods are successful, but it shows that Suzaku's intention, while noble, is doomed.

The roles being played are similar to the Bulsheviks and the Mensheviks during the early 1900s of Russia/USSR.

Originally Posted by Diedrupo

And that ending wouldn't be ironic, it would be what Lelouch would want. He has no real reason to hate Suzaku, as other than stopping him from killing certain important characters throughout S1, Suzaku hasn't done anything to cause emotional pain to Lelouch (that he is aware of). He'd rather Suzaku come back to his side.

Lelouch does not want power, that is why he has Kaguya and other leaders around him. He is the mastermind but he will recede from the stage once the job is done, that is why he is an idea in the form of Zero. He does not want power once the job is done.

You must have missed Ep.11 when Lelouch cursed Suzaku.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Var

Wait, how did I get into this as invalidating Suzaku? My point is that, if looked at from the ascension point of view, Lelouch's killings of his siblings are justified by Britannian History. I do not remember saying anything about Suzaku's cause, I said that Suzaku is going against his birthright, while Lelouch was not.

Suzaku's cause is 'noble' on the outside, but for the vast majority of Season 1, he had a martyr complex so that he could find justification for what he had done. Now, I can argue that his objective has been corrupted by the system. His recent actions are making me believe it more and more. Suzaku is slowly losing his Japanese side, his birthright, and becoming a Britannian. Nonetheless, I've never mentioned anything about his cause, just his own fate.

Lelouch, on the other hand, is following in his father's footsteps. But unlike Charles, as we saw in Ep.14, he is disillusioned to being able to change Britannia, he, like his father, has come to understand that everything must be destroyed for the rot in the system to be removed.

Take Charles as the embodiment of both Lelouch and Suzaku, with Suzaku's intention, but Lelouch's methods. It shows that Lelouch's methods are successful, but it shows that Suzaku's intention, while noble, is doomed.

The roles being played are similar to the Bulsheviks and the Mensheviks during the early 1900s of Russia/USSR.



Lelouch does not want power, that is why he has Kaguya and other leaders around him. He is the mastermind but he will recede from the stage once the job is done, that is why he is an idea in the form of Zero. He does not want power once the job is done.

You must have missed Ep.11 when Lelouch cursed Suzaku.

or ep 5 when he used nanali as a tool against him

[DN24]

After Lelouch little talk with C.C about how geass is the power of king so he alone has geass is enough and you guys still think he has nothing for power?

Suzaku is slowly losing his Japanese side, his birthright, and becoming a Britannian

How is becoming a little dark count as losing his Japanese side? the Japanese were not exactly angels,were they? And theirs leaders were not a very honorable group either.

He is the mastermind but he will recede from the stage once the job is done, that is why he is an idea in the form of Zero. He does not want power once the job is done

Did he tell anyone that he doesn't want power when it is done? No.
Personally,I think if his plan succeeded and he destroys Britania then withdraw,he's a fool to think the world will become peaceful after that.He'll need power to maintain the peace he created and that will automatically make him a dictator of some sort..

[Yorae_paladin1]

Originally Posted by DN24

After Lelouch little talk with C.C about how geass is the power of king so he alone has geass is enough and you guys still think he has nothing for power?



How is becoming a little dark count as losing his Japanese side? the Japanese were not exactly angels,were they? And theirs leaders were not a very honorable group either.



Did he tell anyone that he doesn't want power when it is done? No.
Personally,I think if his plan succeeded and he destroys Britania then withdraw,he's a fool to think the world will become peaceful after that.He'll need power to maintain the peace he created and that will automatically make him a dictator of some sort..

I agree the japanese goverment in its hey day was not a nice one especially with the economic oppression they did to other countries when they held full control of sakurudite sure it made japan richer but at everyone else expense. Abd they foolishly messed with a super power and paid the price.

And yah lelouch needs power to keep his peace whihc means it won't last when he goes so does his work.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by DN24

After Lelouch little talk with C.C about how geass is the power of king so he alone has geass is enough and you guys still think he has nothing for power?

How is becoming a little dark count as losing his Japanese side? the Japanese were not exactly angels,were they? And theirs leaders were not a very honorable group either.

Did he tell anyone that he doesn't want power when it is done? No.
Personally,I think if his plan succeeded and he destroys Britania then withdraw,he's a fool to think the world will become peaceful after that.He'll need power to maintain the peace he created and that will automatically make him a dictator of some sort..

Lelouch was saying that if Geass was the power of the king then it is enough that only he will have that power. He is not so much hung up on the power as saying if it has to exist then he will be the one to have it rather then a bunch of unknown factors.

Suzaku is starting to lose his sense of self in being on the Britannian side. The only thing he really had was his moral highground that he based himself on, changing the system from within works when you stay true to yourself and not let the system change you. By using whatever means necessary to gain results he is being no better then Zero whom he condemns for his methods.

Lelouch is going to build a new system from the ashes of Britannia, he'll likely build a system that will survive even after he is gone. Remember, what he said to Kallen about returning to Ashford after everything is over? I see that has more of him asking her to return to their previous lives with their friends after everything is over. Meaning he does not intend to seize power for himself.

And really dictators are not inherently bad, only when they abuse their power and oppress their people.

[orangejuicetang]

Refresh my memory. What did he say to Kallen about returning to Ashford after everything is over? I don't remember that.

[DN24]

Lelouch is going to build a new system from the ashes of Britannia, he'll likely build a system that will survive even after he is gone. Remember, what he said to Kallen about returning to Ashford after everything is over? I see that has more of him asking her to return to their previous lives with their friends after everything is over. Meaning he does not intend to seize power for himself.

Lelouch is changing things by force,he's not changing anyone mind and to build a new system where people truly respect each other regardless of their races,religions...he need to change people mindand it will take a very very long time I don't think he could ever return to Ashford unless he continue his double life

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Refresh my memory. What did he say to Kallen about returning to Ashford after everything is over? I don't remember that.

Well, when she asked why he came back, he said "Kallen, will you come back to Ashford with me when everything is over? I -" at which point he got interrupted by C.C., if I remember correctly