[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Marion]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I thought Beato said they saw him?

Did she? If that's the case then 'Kanon' can be considered Kanon's missing body. They found it in the kitchen and then moved it to the servants room and then hid it somewhere else.

[k//eternal]

Haha, that's like the "they saw his dead body" theory for "They saw Kinzo", but I think it works.

I should re-read EP2 if I get a chance...

[Westlo]

Why is Battler being as naive as Ange was when Bern first came to her? If Battler proves that Beatrice and magic wasn't behind it and that someone else was it doesn't change the fact that him and his entire family die. Battler win = bad end lol... Anyway loved how Beatrice maneuvered Battler in that last tea party, don't know what her agenda is but it was still done beautifully.

[Valentine]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I thought Beato said they saw him?

She said that they couldn't have mistaken anyone else for Kanon. She didn't specifically say that they saw him though, so there's nothing contradicting them just lying about having seen Kanon at all.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Why is Battler being as naive as Ange was when Bern first came to her? If Battler proves that Beatrice and magic wasn't behind it and that someone else was it doesn't change the fact that him and his entire family die. Battler win = bad end lol... Anyway loved how Beatrice maneuvered Battler in that last tea party, don't know what her agenda is but it was still done beautifully.

Well it's not like giving up is going to be a good end either XD

But no, I don't think that will happen :P That's even too cruel for Ryukushi.

[vandakiara]

ok so I'm probably the only Umineko fan who hasn't played the 4th game yet but I've already been spoiled since the begining... I've just finished ep3 and I have an idea... Don't know if it's already been discussed here though but this thread is too big for me to find out...

In ep3, Kyrie tells Leviathan that she had a baby around the same time Asumu did, but she had miscarriage... (I think that was it)

According to spoilers (I haven't played yet) this happened near the end of ep4:

Spoiler for Battler's existence:

Battler : Huh? Why is my mother's name there? Fine, I'll declare. Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu.
Beato : Continue "that your name is Ushiromiya Battler".
Battler : My name is Ushiromiya Battler. Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.
Beato : That you were born from Ushiromiya Asumu.
Battler : I was born from -

(...)

Battler : Ahhh... I am Ushiromiya Battler!

(...)

Battler : What? Don't say ridiculous things! I am my mother's son! Ushiromiya Asumu's son! I am born from Ushiromiya...
Beato : No need to fret. I won't toy with you. This is checkmate. You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son. Who are you? Who are you who has taken the name of Ushiromiya Battler? You can't be Battler... because you do not know of your sin of six years ago. The actual Battler would not have committed any sin, but in the end, he did. And after the passage of six years, a man who didn't know anything of what happened took the name of Ushiromiya Battler and showed up on Rokkenjima. This is the truth. Six years ago, the man who would be my rival, Ushiromiya Battler, had already died. You are someone Rudolf used to replace Battler for the purpose of the inheritance.

So basically... from here we can say that he's a member of the Ushiromiya family and that he's named Ushiromiya Battler right? We can also say that his mother is not Asumu....

So, my thought is... could Kyrie's son have survived and be this Battler? hmm, well, just a thought though... maybe someone has already posted this...

[Kets]

Originally Posted by vandakiara

ok so I'm probably the only Umineko fan who hasn't played the 4th game yet but I've already been spoiled since the begining... I've just finished ep3 and I have an idea... Don't know if it's already been discussed here though but this thread is too big for me to find out...

In ep3, Kyrie tells Leviathan that she had a baby around the same time Asumu did, but she had miscarriage... (I think that was it)

According to spoilers (I haven't played yet) this happened near the end of ep4:

Spoiler for Battler's existence:

Battler : Huh? Why is my mother's name there? Fine, I'll declare. Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu.
Beato : Continue "that your name is Ushiromiya Battler".
Battler : My name is Ushiromiya Battler. Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.
Beato : That you were born from Ushiromiya Asumu.
Battler : I was born from -

(...)

Battler : Ahhh... I am Ushiromiya Battler!

(...)

Battler : What? Don't say ridiculous things! I am my mother's son! Ushiromiya Asumu's son! I am born from Ushiromiya...
Beato : No need to fret. I won't toy with you. This is checkmate. You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son. Who are you? Who are you who has taken the name of Ushiromiya Battler? You can't be Battler... because you do not know of your sin of six years ago. The actual Battler would not have committed any sin, but in the end, he did. And after the passage of six years, a man who didn't know anything of what happened took the name of Ushiromiya Battler and showed up on Rokkenjima. This is the truth. Six years ago, the man who would be my rival, Ushiromiya Battler, had already died. You are someone Rudolf used to replace Battler for the purpose of the inheritance.

So basically... from here we can say that he's a member of the Ushiromiya family and that he's named Ushiromiya Battler right? We can also say that his mother is not Asumu....

So, my thought is... could Kyrie's son have survived and be this Battler? hmm, well, just a thought though... maybe someone has already posted this...

Spoiler for ???:

Kyrie's son was miscarried, I think.

[Chadauw]

Phew, I just finished to read through those 84 pages of text.

That was a good episode. I didn't hate the parts about Ange and Maria's past, but the Goat/Krauss scene was maybe a bit too much (the Goat memories were fun though).

I don't know if I will be able to bring new theories as a lot have been discussed already but here is what I thought.

Spoiler for Gaap:

About the link between fantasy characters and mystery characters, I agree that Gaap must represent Shannon.

Because of :
- Big boobs
- Hole in the clothes
But more importantly :
- She is the one meeting George. In the arbor. At the same time they were supposed to meet for his declaration. I don't think anybody else but George and Shannon knew they were supposed to meet there at this time.

So this mean almost all servants have their fantasy equivalent. As Jan-Poo said : Godha-Goat, Kumasawa-Virgilia, Genji-Ronove, and now Shannon-Gaap.

Therefore, I won't be surprised if in an ulterior episode, there will be a new Demon (i.e. a one-winged servant), corresponding to Kanon.

Spoiler for 07151129:

Why was this number on the door of the parlor in Ep.3?

Maybe this number also have a link with Battler's sin, and 'Beatrice' wanted him to remember it back in Ep.3...

Well, it's just a wild thought, as this doesn't seem to have anything to do with the money the victim's family received.

Spoiler for Jessica's call:

The first thing I thought is that she had a timed bomb attached to the side of her head. But it is really dumb.

I think her actions may have cause the death of George in some way. But I don't know how.

Spoiler for What Ange saw:

My first impression was, like a lot of person seem to have thought, that she saw a plush of Sakurato. And that maybe Rosa felt guilt and decided to make a mass-production Sakurato, and that this project was finished after her death on Rokkenjima.

I think what crazysjd89 said here is interesting.

It is in fact possible that she lost Sakurato and that the boat captain kept it.

Then, maybe part of the scene when Rosa kills Sakutaro is false. Maybe Rosa didn't tear up the plush, but as she saw Maria acting as if she still had Sakurato, she said something like "Sakurato isn't here anymore", "killing" him, or more precisely "denying" him.

Well, I don't totally buy this theory but I think this is interesting.

Did anyone wonder what Maria did after Beatrice taught her black magic? Because of the sounds I think Maria went on a rampage and destroyed things in the house.

Also, I still want to believe that Rosa isn't that bad a mother as she is portrayed in that Episode. I think this Episode showed us what Maria thinks Rosa feels about her (cf. the scene of Maria dreaming and killing Rosa). I still want to believe some of what was shown to us in the end of Episode 2.

Spoiler for Ange on Rokkenjima:

Well, like everyone else I think that Juuza sniped the men in black.

My problem is, where exactly did the boat accost? On the Mansion side or on the Kuwadorian side? IIRC the path she took looked like the one all the cousin take in the beginning of all games... And she couldn't advance further because of landslide? I'm really confused about that part.

Seeing her "killing" with the stakes made me wonder what is the "true magic" she found... But it was pleasant to see the stakes killing those guys.

Spoiler for Killer:

The general impression I got from Episode 4 is that this time, after Natsuhi, Rosa and Eva, they want us to suspect Kyrie.

As Battler discover all the corpse at the end this time, we can't know in which order people died. I suspect that almost everything we were shown about the adults in false (the first twilight, the hostages (also, why is there telephone jack in a prison?)). I think a lot happened in the mansion without us knowing it, and that maybe no one was in Kuwadorian in this game. So it is even doubtful that the well is connected to Kuwadorian after all. I think that the seal on the well was there from the beginning, after all it doesn't look like it was quickly put on the well, but the stake work seems to have been rushed. Maybe because it had to be done before Battler came back from the chapel?

Well, the scene when Kyrie calls Battler is indeed suspicious. It doesn't seem to fit Kyrie at all, the first thing that came to my mind was "bleh, it's an act" (and it seems sillyhat thought the same ^^').

Also, because Kyrie+dress+wig=Beatrice. And because she is surely the one who is the most concerned by what Battler thought about this whole "leaving the family" thing. Was she so disappointed by Battler's answer that she decided to kill herself? We need a good reason for her to do so.

Spoiler for Two Battler:

Not much of an idea about it, it is the thing that confused me the most in this episode (along with Battler's sin).

A bit disappointed that Battler can use the red... If chocking is the only punishment for saying untrue statements, then Battler could use it to resolve all mysteries without effort.

Also, I don't think Battler would have problems saying "Asumu is my mother.", because, as Ange said "It's about bounds.", thus the "being born from" thing.

Also, the little bombs theory is the best theory ever.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Chadauw

Spoiler for Gaap:

About the link between fantasy characters and mystery characters, I agree that Gaap must represent Shannon.

Because of :
- Big boobs
- Hole in the clothes
But more importantly :
- She is the one meeting George. In the arbor. At the same time they were supposed to meet for his declaration. I don't think anybody else but George and Shannon knew they were supposed to meet there at this time.

So this mean almost all servants have their fantasy equivalent. As Jan-Poo said : Godha-Goat, Kumasawa-Virgilia, Genji-Ronove, and now Shannon-Gaap.

Therefore, I won't be surprised if in an ulterior episode, there will be a new Demon (i.e. a one-winged servant), corresponding to Kanon.

Spoiler:

Gohda = Goatmen? That doesn't seem right, the goatmen don't even really have personalities or anything, wouldn't that be kind of... mean to Gohda in a way? ^^;
The only similarities they have are being large... and being "servants". Other than that, they don't really share many similarities to me. I always thought that the goats were just minions that don't really serve much of a role other than being... minions. But meh, maybe I'm wrong.

Though the Shannon = Gaap theory is interesting. Especially because their personalities are so different... I actually like this idea myself. Though, because their personalities are SOOOOO different... it just makes this theory stranger.

And seeing the odd ways that Kanon has died in... well, ALL of the episodes.
EP1: Mysterious culprit
EP2: Vanishing body/Kanon double
EP3: The only one not in the mansion, instead his body was in the chapel
EP4: Vanishing body

Does he even really NEED a demon equivalent? I'm not saying that he definitely won't have one, but he MIGHT not have one for reasons that may be related to his "deaths".
Meh I dunno... I'm just saying this because Kanon strikes me as a rather odd fellow... his involvement in the story is still too mysterious to me.

[ClockWorkAngel]

The suspicious details on Kanon only reinforces the Kanon = Shannon theory.

I have a feeling that Kinzo is not dead. Though it'll be tough to argue that with the red already put in place.

[lovelysan]

It's also interesting to note, that, forgetting on whether or not the body is found by Battler (thereby confirming the cause of death,) I believe Kannon is always described as being staked/stabbed/ whatever in the chest. (evidenced by the body in Episodes 1 and 3, in "fantasy" scenes in 2 and 4.)

This seems to be an interesting constant.

EDIT- Also, I really hope the Kanon=Shanon theory never pans out to be true. The "secret crossdreser" plot point has been done to death in other media . (That, and I like the characters, so I'd rather they not be the same....)

[momobunny]

That theory also makes the whole JessicaXKanon and GeorgeXShannon storyline pretty awkward. ^^;

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Chadauw

Also, I still want to believe that Rosa isn't that bad a mother as she is portrayed in that Episode. I think this Episode showed us what Maria thinks Rosa feels about her (cf. the scene of Maria dreaming and killing Rosa). I still want to believe some of what was shown to us in the end of Episode 2.

I feel like Rosa became a better mother at the end of EP2, but the character development didn't cross between boards (as it does for the servants).

That said, yeah, I don't think she's as bad as she appears to be, especially with the dream sequence.

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

Though the Shannon = Gaap theory is interesting. Especially because their personalities are so different... I actually like this idea myself. Though, because their personalities are SOOOOO different... it just makes this theory stranger.

And seeing the odd ways that Kanon has died in... well, ALL of the episodes. Does he even really NEED a demon equivalent?

Well, it's not like Genji and Ronove are all that similar... Kumasawa isn't quite Virgilia, either, although the mackerel makes her the closest to her fantasy version.

Also KANON = BEATRICE

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I feel like Rosa became a better mother at the end of EP2, but the character development didn't cross between boards (as it does for the servants).

That said, yeah, I don't think she's as bad as she appears to be, especially with the dream sequence.



Well, it's not like Genji and Ronove are all that similar... Kumasawa isn't quite Virgilia, either, although the mackerel makes her the closest to her fantasy version.

Also KANON = BEATRICE

They are different, I never said that Genji and Ronove were that much alike but Gaap and Shannon are like polar opposites to me. (Though... I can see similarities between Virgilia and Kumasawa)

[Danichuu]

Hah, here's my shot at theorizing about Battler's identity ...

Spoiler for crackpot theory, maybe, on the Battlers:

Clearly the Battler that Beatrice wanted as her opponent is Asumu's son Battler, but our Battler isn't. I can't remember who said this, nor in which episode I read this, but Kyrie miscarriaged her son.

Maybe our Battler is the result of one of Rudolf's earlier relationships, before Asumu? And Asumu's Battler... can't think of anything that might've happened to him afterwards, so I'll stop blabbing now.

Feel free to ignore this silly theory, here.

[tcaz2]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I feel like Rosa became a better mother at the end of EP2, but the character development didn't cross between boards (as it does for the servants).

That said, yeah, I don't think she's as bad as she appears to be, especially with the dream sequence.

I'd actually say it does. Rosa never beats Maria in 3 or 4 that I can remember, and all the scenes of Rosa being a ***** in 4 are flashbacks (which seem to be a constant, as the game board gets 'cut off' at October 4th).

[lovelysan]

Actually Danichuu, I've been assuming that as well. to expound--

Spoiler for weeeeee:

Maybe there was a reason both Rudolph and Asumu had to pretend our Battler was Asumu's son.
That, or it was the Sumidera families doing. Kyrie was supposed to mary someone else for the family's sake after all. They probalby messed with things behind the scenes to make SURE Rudolph married Asumu instead.

[Danichuu]

Spoiler for lalala:

I think that Kasumi mentioned, towards the end of the episode or somethin', that...um....... one sec.


Yeah, when Kasumi and her peeps were just beating the crap out of Ange, Kasumi mentioned that Kyrie was allowed to marry Rudolf, going free with just the punishment (or blessing?) of disinheritance because of some deal, that the Sumaderas would get financial support from the Ushiromiyas.

Also, Kyrie and Ange came along sometime after Asumu's death, right?

[lovelysan]

Yeah, but remember, THAT marriage is six years later. The "deal" could of been made at that time, just not before.

Oh, and no,

Spoiler for Kyrie and Ange:

Rudolph was sleeping with both Kyrie and Asumu at around the same time. Ange was born not long after Rudolph married Kyrie.

[Danichuu]

Originally Posted by lovelysan

Yeah, but remember, THAT marriage is six years later. The "deal" could of been made at that time, just not before.

Oh, and no,

Spoiler for Kyrie and Ange:

Rudolph was sleeping with both Kyrie and Asumu at around the same time. Ange was born not long after Rudolph married Kyrie.

Ohhhhhh...... I need to pay more attention to what I read @_@