Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by Solace

Homura didn't gain universe rewriting powers. She became a supercharged witch because the Incubators interfered with her.

I agree with most of what you said, except this part. Homura did rewrite the universe, and she is not a witch. QB said so very clearly. She is not a magical girl and not a witch. See: 1:39:28 of the BD release (English subtitles).

[RRW]

I think he mean this

like how Madoka become god. she become magical girl first. but her power is so great she become beyond magical girl which is "god"

same goes with Homura. She become witch at the end but her power is so great she become beyond witch which is "demon"

so in sense "demon" is "supercharged witch" just like how "god" is "supercharged magical girl"

[Triple_R]

If you get down into the nitty-gritty, I think Solace might be entirely right.

Homura didn't exactly re-write the universe. She absorbed it into her existing barrier, and changed one "natural law" - The Law of Cycles. One could argue that this specific re-writing is the extent of her "universe re-writing".

I mean, I don't get the impression that Homura totally changed everything, or made much of anything from scratch. Earth still appears to be like Earth, in most respects. The most visible differences are quite tellingly ones arising directly from Homura's witch/demon barrier (those creepy little things running around, in other words).

It would be comparable to someone sucking the universe into a dream reality, and changing The Law of Gravity. Massive and impressive for sure, but it's not like the universe has fundamentally changed beyond these two aspects.


Now, I think this distinction, though nuanced, could be important. Because if this universe is simply the same universe as always, just now stuck in a dream world, then everything else Solace wrote flows logically from that. Which would arguably make it easier to accept what Homura did here. She simply manipulated elements already in play (her barrier, The Law of Cycles) rather than getting nigh-omnipotent power seemingly from out of nowhere.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

I agree with most of what you said, except this part. Homura did rewrite the universe, and she is not a witch. QB said so very clearly. She is not a magical girl and not a witch. See: 1:39:28 of the BD release (English subtitles).

Except QB is not all knowing, and has been proven wrong repeatedly. Of course he would say this. From his perspective, his universe is changing, but that's because he's being sucked into Homura's labyrinth just like everyone else. He doesn't recognize the labyrinth because it's on a scale never seen before, and because she's in full control of it she can manipulate him however she likes. He's no longer an observer or an outside influence, he's fully integrated into her world. Ditto for everyone else.

She is very clearly a Witch. She has familiars (and other Witch familiars are shown), runes appear everywhere, and her Soul Gem broke and reformed into a new shape after she expanded her barrier. She is no longer Homulilly the Witch or Homura the Magical Girl, yes, but she is still a Witch. A very, very advanced one.

Everything about the shift, including some of the dialogue (mainly when Sayaka confronts Homura at the end), basically says "this is a witch labyrinth". The whole point of the labyrinth is to prevent victims from leaving, remember?

[Kazu-kun]

^ Narrativily speaking, there's no reason for QB to be wrong in this case. Homura doesn't correct him either. Furthermore, we clearly see two layers of power covering the universe, not just one.

All in all, I think it's safe to assume she rewrote the universe, as QB suggested, and also covered it with a barrier.

And no, she's not a witch. It she was, she would have been taken by Law of Cycles.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Homura didn't exactly re-write the universe. She absorbed it into her existing barrier, and changed one "natural law" - The Law of Cycles. One could argue that this specific re-writing is the extent of her "universe re-writing".

It's the same thing Madoka did. She added the Law of Cycles and the universe rewrote itself to accommodate for it. Homura took the human Madoka from the Law and the universe rewrote itself again to accommodate for the new changes. Both cases are exactly the same.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

^ Narrativily speaking, there's no reason for QB to be wrong in this case.

There's no particular reason for him to be right, either. I find that some Madoka fans take character statements a bit too much at face value and 100% literally.

Again, these are just characters. There's no rule saying that characters can't simply be wrong or mistaken, even if they are giving their honest assessment of things. And Kyubey is not downright infallible. He himself has admitted in the past to not having a perfect understanding of magic and magical girls. A lot of this is a bizarre mystery to him as well.

Homura doesn't correct him either.

What happened the last time Homura gave Kyubey more information than she needed to? If I'm Homura, I think I'd like the idea of Kyubey working off of incorrect presumptions for a change. So I wouldn't be going out of my way to correct him.

Furthermore, we clearly see two layers of power covering the universe, not just one.

So what? This is SHAFT we're talking about, for crying out loud. SHAFT anime are absolutely loaded with visuals that don't signify much of anything other than Shinbo's distinct aesthetic taste. If you don't believe me, look at the ridiculous amount of furniture in Sayaka's bedroom in the TV series, or look at the entire Monogatari series.

All in all, I think it's safe to assume she rewrote the universe, as QB suggested, and also covered it with a barrier.

I don't think that's a safe assumption. It's no safer an assumption than how some assumed Madoka to be omniscient based on a line or two in Episode 12 of the TV series, and we saw how that turned out...

And no, she's not a witch. It she was, she would have been taken by Law of Cycles.

She was briefly a witch, with a witch's barrier. So even without being a witch, she still had access to some of the abilities/characteristics of a witch.

It's the same thing Madoka did. She added the Law of Cycles and the universe rewrote itself to accommodate for it. Homura took the human Madoka from the Law and the universe rewrote itself again to accommodate for the new changes. Both cases are exactly the same.

Madoka-verse never had these creepy little things, straight out of a witch's barrier, running around freely in the real world.

Personally, I like Solace's theory. I think it makes a lot of sense.

[AuraTwilight]

I like to think that Homura and Madoka are the same type of entity (Let's call it 'Goddess'), which is neither Magical Girl or Witch, but took two different roads to get there. Madoka is Goddess-From-Magical-Girl, and Homura is Goddess-From-Witch.

Homura has superificial similarities to a Witch, but itdoesn't make sense for her to literally be one, no matter how powerful, and she doesn't have any of the criticial defining aspects of what one is. She isn't fueled by Grief or Despair, for instance.

As for the 'two layers of reality-warping', I'm pretty positive the first one is more the world breaking from Madoka's spiritual vivisection rather than anything active; that'd be the barrier coming up right behind it.

Really, however you define Homura's nature, my personal peeve would be why she's so powerful. I can accept using Love Power to become some sort of weird dark angel witch queen thing (The Bishonen Line trope), but like...

I can only imagine Homura only has this power level because of some specific interaction with Madoka. If it were anyone else motivated by feelings for anyone else, I imagine that even if everything were the same, the "Witch Queen" demoness would be significantly less powerful because they're not tied up with a personified multiversal goddess-concept.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Madoka-verse never had these creepy little things, straight out of a witch's barrier, running around freely in the real world.

They are inside a barrier, it's to be expected that it'd be full of creepy things. I never denied that point. I just clarified that the universe was rewritten before Homura put that barrier all over it.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

She was briefly a witch, with a witch's barrier. So even without being a witch, she still had access to some of the abilities/characteristics of a witch.

Yeah, I never denied this either. Basically, Madoka is a god evolved from a magical girl and Homura is a devil evolved from a witch. That's pretty obvious.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

As for the 'two layers of reality-warping', I'm pretty positive the first one is more the world breaking from Madoka's spiritual vivisection rather than anything active; that'd be the barrier coming up right behind it.

Of course. When Madoa made her wish, the universe rewrote itself to accommodate for it. Madoka didn't actively rewrite the universe. This is the same case. Homura takes human Madoka from the Law of Cycles and the universe rewrites itself again to accommodate that change.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

I'm pretty confused. Did Homura turn into a devil and suck Madoka inside her barrier (in order to protect her from sacrificing herself)? There will be a sequel, surely?

Did she also rewrite the universe, or was it the universe inside her barrier that was rewritten?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

I'm pretty confused. Did Homura turn into a devil and suck Madoka inside her barrier (in order to protect her from sacrificing herself)? There will be a sequel, surely?

Did she also rewrite the universe, or was it the universe inside her barrier that was rewritten?

Homura stripped human Madoka from the Law of Cycles. As a result the universe was rewritten. Then Homura covered the entire universe with her barrier.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

And no, she's not a witch. It she was, she would have been taken by Law of Cycles.

The Law of Cycles came to get her. She stopped her before the gem could be purified. The Law of Cycles is not a thing, it is Madoka herself.

It's the same thing Madoka did. She added the Law of Cycles and the universe rewrote itself to accommodate for it. Homura took the human Madoka from the Law and the universe rewrote itself again to accommodate for the new changes. Both cases are exactly the same.

No, it's not the same. The difference is right in your face: Madoka was already human and split from her celestial self for the vast majority of the movie, and the universe outside of Homura's gem did not change.

This is why I am saying that all Homura did was make one big universe covering barrier. The "real" universe didn't change (the Law of Cycles universe), Homura just pulled everyone into an expanded version of her labyrinth. The Law of Cycles isn't gone, it is blocked.

This is why I said that it is all an illusion. It's a false god ruling a false world.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Solace

No, it's not the same. The difference is right in your face: Madoka was already human and split from her celestial self for the vast majority of the movie, and the universe outside of Homura's gem did not change.

Madoka wasn't split from anything. She just couldn't use her powers because she didn't have her memories. This was stated. More importantly, giving her memories to Sayaka and Nagisa for safekeeping was her own doing. She wasn't altered by Homura's dream world all. It was all her own doing.

What happened at the end is different. Homura forcibly splits human Madoka from the Law of Cycles and she does it before her barrier covers the universe. It has nothing to do with her barrier, which is in place for Homura to manipulate the world at will and keep the QBs in check.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Madoka wasn't split from anything. She just couldn't use her powers because she didn't have her memories. This was stated. More importantly, giving her memories to Sayaka and Nagisa for safekeeping was her own doing. She wasn't altered by Homura's dream world all. It was all her own doing.

What happened at the end is different. Homura forcibly splits human Madoka from the Law of Cycles and she does it before her barrier covers the universe. It has nothing to do with her barrier, which is in place for Homura to manipulate the world at will and keep the QBs in check.

Sigh. It's really not much of a discussion when we're just repeating ourselves. Let's just agree to disagree.

[bigbossbalrog]

If Homura is a "false" god, then how can she mind rape the incubators, and control everything?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by bigbossbalrog

If Homura is a "false" god

She's not a false god because there are no real gods here to begin with, at least if we're interpreting things from a Judeo-Christian perspective.

Madoka is a self-aware concept. She didn't create the world, she just introduced a new law into it (well, and she herself became that law).

Originally Posted by bigbossbalrog

then how can she mind rape the incubators, and control everything?

Because she put a freaking barrier all over the universe. That probably gives her total control over everything that exists.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by Solace

Except QB is not all knowing, and has been proven wrong repeatedly. Of course he would say this. From his perspective, his universe is changing, but that's because he's being sucked into Homura's labyrinth just like everyone else. He doesn't recognize the labyrinth because it's on a scale never seen before, and because she's in full control of it she can manipulate him however she likes. He's no longer an observer or an outside influence, he's fully integrated into her world. Ditto for everyone else.

She is very clearly a Witch. She has familiars (and other Witch familiars are shown), runes appear everywhere, and her Soul Gem broke and reformed into a new shape after she expanded her barrier. She is no longer Homulilly the Witch or Homura the Magical Girl, yes, but she is still a Witch. A very, very advanced one.

Everything about the shift, including some of the dialogue (mainly when Sayaka confronts Homura at the end), basically says "this is a witch labyrinth". The whole point of the labyrinth is to prevent victims from leaving, remember?

I disagree. If it is stated in such clear, black and white terms that Homura is not a witch, I think we should believe the statement unless clearly proven otherwise. It seems quite clear to me that Homura is an entirely new entity that is very different from all the witches shown in the series. For starters, she appears in a normal, human form that can interact with the world normally, unlike all other witches. Her barrier is not intended to kill. She has powers, e.g. memory wipe, that other witches don't have. Witches have grief seeds. Homura's soul-gem like thing doesn't look like a grief seed at all. She herself says so, she is a devil, on the same level as Madoka's kami.

I therefore see no reason at all to call Homura a witch.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by bigbossbalrog

If Homura is a "false" god, then how can she mind rape the incubators, and control everything?

I don't think Homura is a false god. A false god is someone who pretends to be a benevolent god but actually has hidden malicious intent, or someone who pretends to be a powerful god but actually doesn't have such powers. Homura really does have god level powers, and she flat out calls herself a devil.

As for the "how" part, her barrier now covers the universe, so presumably she can do those things. I think we know too little about the extent and limitations of Homura's powers right now. When the sequel comes, I am sure the producers need to place limitations to her power.

[LightDragonman]

You know, rewatching this film again, I can't help but notice the fact that Rebellion is basically the Magical Girl version of The Matrix.

Think about it. You've got the whole false reality, the main hero ascending to a higher being able to warp said false reality, a gun fight complete with over the top acrobatics and bullet time, and even the same themes regarding reality vs fantasy and the whole Platonic Cave. Not to mention all the Gnostic symbolism.

I'm just go out on a record and call Rebellion the best Matrix film since the first one. XD. What say you?

[woxx]

Originally Posted by LightDragonman

You know, rewatching this film again, I can't help but notice the fact that Rebellion is basically the Magical Girl version of The Matrix.

Think about it. You've got the whole false reality, the main hero ascending to a higher being able to warp said false reality, a gun fight complete with over the top acrobatics and bullet time, and even the same themes regarding reality vs fantasy and the whole Platonic Cave. Not to mention all the Gnostic symbolism.

I'm just go out on a record and call Rebellion the best Matrix film since the first one. XD. What say you?

It's matrix only for Madoka, Sayaka and Bebe as they don't exist in real world and their souls belongs to Law of cycles.
Everyone else is physically in Homura's barrier, not just their minds.

[FierceAlchemist]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Really, however you define Homura's nature, my personal peeve would be why she's so powerful. I can accept using Love Power to become some sort of weird dark angel witch queen thing (The Bishonen Line trope), but like...

I can only imagine Homura only has this power level because of some specific interaction with Madoka. If it were anyone else motivated by feelings for anyone else, I imagine that even if everything were the same, the "Witch Queen" demoness would be significantly less powerful because they're not tied up with a personified multiversal goddess-concept.

Watch the film again and pay attention to the spool of pink thread. It shows up several times throughout the film and is what becomes Homura's new soul gem. If you think about the myth surrounding the red string of fate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_string_of_fate) and what we know of Homura jumping through time, (bit.ly/1pH6n5k) it makes sense that her power comes from the same source as Madoka's: karmic destiny.

The string is pink because it represents Madoka, who benefitted from those leaps through time through her own power up. But Homura actually experienced them, she just didn't have the enormous potential building within her like Madoka because she already was a magical girl. It needed a change of form or transformation to unleash itself, much like how energy is released when a magical girl becomes a witch.

Thus when Homura awoke in the real world as something neither magical girl nor witch, she was able to access that power and spread her barrier over the universe. Consider that and the fact that emotions=power in Madoka Magica. If everything Homura's done, even her suffering, was all for the sake of love, then that's multiple timelines worth of power she can unleash.