[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Megaolix

Do we even NEED to solve all the mysteries in this? It's pretty clear that Lambdadelta did things very differently from Beatrice. Where Beatrice make moves for no reason, as it was said by 34, 34 does not do things for nothing. All moves have a purpose with her and she won't give any free hint with them.

So is there just lots of misdirection, to distract from the real goal, or is there something that is supposed to help us find the truth in there by solving the mysteries?

The only thing I see gained at the end is the definitive removal of someone from the suspect's list.

Spoiler for *Badum Tsh*:

(beato says the first line, battler the second)

But seriously, I found a lot of hints of characterization myself from the narration. Try not to throw away this game. If only for the subtle hints placed.

Spoiler for Like this for example:

Kanon says the first line.
Kyrie says the second line.
Shannon pauses in awe.

Spoiler for and this:

[Mercurius]

I've gone through the first 20 pages of this thread, and skimmed through the rest, and I must say it does feel pretty darn good to be somewhat caught up, if only for a few days.

Spoiler for EP5 Review & Notes:

Finishing this episode, I was left with very conflicted feelings (which was probably the point). Unfortunately this Episode seems to have confirmed my fear that I have not yet reached the core of the series. Despite its length, I have the least amount of notes from this episode. To be fair, it seemed that most of the text was devoted to explaining Natsuhi's character and describing some more epic scenes. However, this feeling that I didn't get much progress on the mystery from this episode makes me worried that I have not figured out the important clues from the ones shown so far. Still, I thoroughly enjoyed the epicness and emotional roller coaster that was the End of the Golden Witch. And I have more motivation to go back through the previous episodes yet one more time.

Some miscellaneous notes from this episode:

Furudo Erika:
Ryushiki's representation of the majority of us, the readers. Like Erika's twisted detective methods, we are 'doing it wrong' because even though we are attempting to put together a truth of what happened, it's not the real truth of the series.

First Mystery:
Strange that the Epitaph was mentioned as the first mystery in the game. For me, it was the 'Who gives Maria the letter in the rose garden?' or 'What happened to Maria's rose?'. Another sign that I'm probably up the wrong tree.

Letter & Knock:
These two were made to look related, but likely done by two different people.

Kyrie's Intuition:
Why did Kyrie mention to check the bathroom immediately after discovering Hideyoshi's murdered body in the guest room?

Gohda's Alibi:
During the Court of Illusions scene, when they were going through the checklist of alibis, it struck me as odd that Gohda's alibi for after 3:00AM was that Erika had not seen him. It's odd since she went to great lengths to establish Kumasawa's and Nanjo's alibi for after 3:00AM using her seal. But since Gohda's alibi was backed up by the red, I'm guessing it's just my bias against him that's making me suspicious.

Requesting a small quick check on a possible typo/error:

Spoiler for First Twilight Red Text:

First Twilight Red Text

It should be 7 people, correct? And while we're at it, is there a definitive list of the errors in this episode? The two I know of are the red text mentioning Batter in the Guest House (which I believe WH fixed), and the Hideyoshi sprite debacle. Any others?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Mercurius

Spoiler for First Twilight Red Text:

And while we're at it, is there a definitive list of the errors in this episode? The two I know of are the red text mentioning Batter in the Guest House (which I believe WH fixed), and the Hideyoshi sprite debacle. Any others?

It's probably not worth the time worrying too much about them. Most likely, they'll all be fixed in the EP6 version of the game, and our patch will take those fixes into account.

[Li Jianliang]

Originally Posted by Mercurius

Requesting a small quick check on a possible typo/error:

Spoiler for First Twilight Red Text:

First Twilight Red Text

It should be 7 people, correct? And while we're at it, is there a definitive list of the errors in this episode? The two I know of are the red text mentioning Batter in the Guest House (which I believe WH fixed), and the Hideyoshi sprite debacle. Any others?

I also believe it should be just seven people. It was probably a typo on Ryukishi's part, because the error was there in the original game, too.
Original game screenshot.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Mercurius

I've gone through the first 20 pages of this thread, and skimmed through the rest, and I must say it does feel pretty darn good to be somewhat caught up, if only for a few days.

Spoiler for EP5 Review & Notes:

Kyrie's Intuition:
Why did Kyrie mention to check the bathroom immediately after discovering Hideyoshi's murdered body in the guest room?

Kyrie is...generally odd in this episode. You wouldn't notice it with all the focus given to Erika but she's just acting strange.

She's almost on par with Erika at every turn. She's the one who trapped Natsuhi in the "Who was the last one to see Kinzo" trick, was described as willing to give up her compassion in a situation if needed, told Erika at one point to stop playing detective (and made a pretty snarky mark at her). I don't know why but I just had an odd feeling about her the entire episode.

[k//eternal]

The meta-world explanation is probably that Bern is controlling her piece, but you really have to wonder what's going on with the "real world" throughout all of EP5...

[Marion]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

The meta-world explanation is probably that Bern is controlling her piece, but you really have to wonder what's going on with the "real world" throughout all of EP5...

Doesn't Lambda control all pieces besides Erika and Battler (although I think Bern stopped using Battler after the 1st twilight).

Eva is also suspicious as well, but at the same time its more of typical Eva behavior, with her receipts and what not.

[Arachanox]

What is the Hideyoshi sprite debacle that has been referred to?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

What is the Hideyoshi sprite debacle that has been referred to?

In the original game after Hideyoshi had died his sprite appeared next to Shannon in one scene. It's basically a major editing problem and Ryukishi acknowledge that it was a mistake.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Marion

Doesn't Lambda control all pieces besides Erika and Battler (although I think Bern stopped using Battler after the 1st twilight).

Eva is also suspicious as well, but at the same time its more of typical Eva behavior, with her receipts and what not.

Is this actually stated? Lambda has certainly been acting pretty sketchy throughout this game, but she shouldn't have anything to gain from having Kyrie trip up Natsuhi.

(Of course, the phone calls are a similar oddity so it's not out of the question.)

[MeoTwister5]

Generally speaking a lot of the adults are acting really odd the entire Ep5. In fact, doesn't anyone find it odd that the adults still treat her cooly after

Spoiler for Ep5 Spoilers:

Erika suddenly uses red in the game itself for the first time, when the VN states that everyone was "blown away" by her detective statements (may have even been a physical "blown away").

The only person who seems to have a divergent idea of Erika was piece-Battler, and in fact it's only piece-Battler seems in-character.

[cheesie]

Spoiler for Reaction post:

How mind-blowingly epic was this game's Episode arc? After many months of ignoring everything Umineko-related to savor the experience of the plot twists and epic revelations, the abstaining completely paid off, and just as I expected, I am treated to nothing but sheer awesomeness akin to the experience of the Beato-Troll in Episode 3 when I was struck speechless. I've forgotten just how much I fell in love with the cast, and even though we may or may not be closer to the actual "truth" of this tale, the character interactions and suspense is what really ensnared me.

Towards the end of the episode, I originally felt that they dragged the Judgment Trial too long; Natsuhi was certainly being kicked in the guts all over by the pompous witches that I somewhat resigned to this being the actual ending of this Episode and would have to wait at least another year before my rage and despair could be appeased. Never could I have imagined that a few minutes later, Battler would have slaughtered the little Miss Troll with his counter-attacks, I am bowled over by the epicness, that I am. Even if some had seen Battler's throne coming, it still doesn't take away that this is definitely Battler's golden moment, Endless Sorcerer Battler, who would've imagined the hilarious irony behind it? Yet he fights and delivers waves after waves of epic swords, well done, Battler, well done, you have shown yourself to have risen mightily and offer an onslaught of pure ownage after that sorry excuse of a fail barrier you enacted for your princess. It has soothed my rage, and I now look forward to the next Episode, and shall adjourn to my cave that is devoid of anything spoilery later on.

[luckyssol]

Do you guys have any idea what kind of dirty trick was played in episode 5?

-It's got to be something almost none of the readers would notice
-Battler, Erika, and Bern didn't notice it (This implies that Lambdadelta does know about it or at least noticed it)

Regarding the level of control of pieces on the board, what about the narration? There are scenes where we are shown the inner thoughts of Battler. Since Battler wasn't a player was it Lambdadelta who created this narration?

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Do you guys have any idea what kind of dirty trick was played in episode 5?

-It's got to be something almost none of the readers would notice
-Battler, Erika, and Bern didn't notice it (This implies that Lambdadelta does know about it or at least noticed it)

Regarding the level of control of pieces on the board, what about the narration? There are scenes where we are shown the inner thoughts of Battler. Since Battler wasn't a player was it Lambdadelta who created this narration?

Well since Bern and Lambda both run things... actually when you think about it it seems that because Lambda takes on a more "neutral" adjudicator position to Bern's anti-magic playing, the narration would be more controlled by Lambda.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Generally speaking a lot of the adults are acting really odd the entire Ep5. In fact, doesn't anyone find it odd that the adults still treat her cooly after

Spoiler for Ep5 Spoilers:

Erika suddenly uses red in the game itself for the first time, when the VN states that everyone was "blown away" by her detective statements (may have even been a physical "blown away").

The only person who seems to have a divergent idea of Erika was piece-Battler, and in fact it's only piece-Battler seems in-character.

For the red part that only applied to Battler. I doubt that everyone was blown away, unless I read it wrong.

I disagree about the pieces. Natsuhi also has a very bad opinion of Erika throughout the entire game and as I mentioned before Kyrie even told her quite sternly to stop playing detective so that she could come with them to the parlor with Hideyoshi's corpse. And most times they pretty much ignored her unless she was playing detective.

I see it the same with Piece-Battler in the previous games. Everyone always listened intently to him and what he said. This is probably because he's the detective and now Erika is in the same place as he is.

Originally Posted by Ssol

Regarding the level of control of pieces on the board, what about the narration? There are scenes where we are shown the inner thoughts of Battler. Since Battler wasn't a player was it Lambdadelta who created this narration?

I'm sure most of the narration was collaborated between Battler and Lambda, but majorly Lambda was the narrator.

Still the narration became VERY odd near the ending, when Natsuhi's motive started to be explained. It didn't sound like Lambda, Battler or anyone on the gameboard narrating it for that matter. And then Beatrice mentioned somebody with the courage to continue a fight. I'm thinking a new character may appear in EP 6 that may play as an observer role.

[ShadowRift]

Spoiler:

While I agree that all of the parents acted strangely in this arc, I think this is the first one where I became particularly suspicious of Hideyoshi. So far he's generally come off as the nice old uncle, but he did a few odd things this time that strayed from his usual characterization. Of note is that he was the one that first suggested to Eva (and through Eva the other children) that Kinzo was already dead. Hideyoshi's never been shown to be particularly intelligent or observational, so it just struck me as weird that he of all the people would be the one to suggest the "Kinzo is already dead" theory to the other adults, as opposed to say Kyrie.

The actions leading up to his death were pretty suspicious as well. He arrives at the guest room Natsuhi is in at precisely the time she's hiding there, and what he does seems pretty weird as well. He seems to expect a lock (which Natsuhi had considered putting in place, but ultimately didn't), then makes some bizarre comments to himself that Natsuhi rationalizes... but are still pretty weird. Then obviously, he's killed... but the door's chain lock remains in place, so whoever killed him couldn't have escaped out the door. The suspicion on him seems to mostly be alleviated by the sheer fact that he was the one who died... but the entire scene just raised a lot of red flags in my head.

[Marion]

Kyrie mentioned in EP 4 that everyone had past suspicions about it beforehand. It wasn't just her who suspected he was already dead - she was the only one who was vocal about it. We don't know for sure if Eva spread the word about Hideyoshi's suspicions either, since they all met together in Ginza after the conversations we saw between the couples (Eva + Hideyoshi, Kyrie + Rudolf and then Rosa talking to Rudolf over the phone). Besides Hideyoshi talked to Eva about that before the conference of 1986, so Lambda or whoever couldn't have manipulated him to say that.

As for Hideyoshi in the guest room, it could be coincidental that he was in there. I think he expected it to be locked because pretty much every room is locked up usually in the house. He went in there just to be alone it seems. Still I do see your point.

Also:

And then Beatrice mentioned somebody with the courage to continue a fight. I'm thinking a new character may appear in EP 6 that may play as an observer role.

Spoiler for Cap of what I was talking about:

She might mean Battler, but I'm not sure of it completely considering how formally she addresses the person and the way she describes it.

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by Marion

Kyrie mentioned in EP 4 that everyone had past suspicions about it beforehand. It wasn't just her who suspected he was already dead - she was the only one who was vocal about it. Besides Hideyoshi talked to Eva about that before the conference of 1986, so Lambda or whoever couldn't have manipulated him to say that.

The first call from the man from 19 years ago came before the family conference also, right? So that means he is a common factor, correct?

Maybe the reason Natsuhi rushed out of the parlor (?) in ep 1 was because she went to go find/kill her "son".

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

The first call from the man from 19 years ago came before the family conference also, right? So that means he is a common factor, correct?

Maybe the reason Natsuhi rushed out of the parlor (?) in ep 1 was because she went to go find/kill her "son".

This is actually the assumption Ep5 forces me to make. Insofar similar to how Kinzo has and has always been dead as an event prior to the games, we might also need to assume that the man of 19 years ago contacted and influenced Natsuhi in all games prior to the events.

As such, the man of 19 years ago has to be taken into account as a factor in Natsuhi's actions for all games.

The bigger question is this factor affects the game so much that, despite having most of the influence on Natsuhi, Natsuhi's survival is not constant in ALL the games. She is the first adult to be focused upon in more than 2 games, yet despite the the influence of the mystery man she still dies fairly early in others.

[Tjfarmer]

Well, the first calls take place before the conference, but the next couple take place during. So whether or not the mystery man acts out his plan to continue harassing Natsuhi during the conference can change each arc.