[Manga] Naruto Chapter 530 Discussion

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Normally I'd be eager to see it, but after all the soul sucking, heart stocking, psychic chakra mind ghosts, immortal dudes, etc. that Kishi's been loving lately, I'm kinda put off. Hope it's good though, at least if Tsunade finally gets a fight after so long.

-Hm, my vote is for making "genjutsu real" type of thing, a kind that cannot be broken off by typical anti-genjutsu methods but we will have to see it. Hope its not another disappointment like what Amaterasu turned out to be in the end.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

That's what I really wanna see...how do samurai fight against a ninja?

-With lightsaber-like swords and semi-mystical-but-not-really phenomenon powers? Oh wait, those are taken .

Originally Posted by DeDe

Well consider for three chapters we saw a guy we didn't know much about(Darui) vs. two guys we never saw before(Gold and Silver bros). And now we have samurai guy vs. mask guy. Neither character we know much about other than the basic details. So you can understand why Kishi would milk a fight with actual emotion between established characters(One of whom is really popular). The other fights have zero pathos.

Does Neji and Hinata really need to fight Hizashi? No, but they will. Does Gaara really need to fight his father? No, but he will. Does Sakura need to fight Chiyo? No, but she will. The Japanese love close relationship stuff so they will eat this up. Kishi knows his audience. That said, there still will be other fights. If Darui gets multiple fights, then the others will as well.

-Oh believe me, I agree with you. All the fights you mentioned are bound to happen and indeed, Kishimoto is obligated to make them happen. Frankly I'd be very surprised if Asuma got taken down by some random ninja from Kirigakure. My problem though probably lies in how Ino-Shika-Cho vs. Asuma was handled. Yes, a fight between former allies/students/teachers/family is dramatic, but when you know that they're coming, it loses much of its impact.

-Now ok, loss of shock/surprise value aside, there is ways to make even predictable match-ups dramatic as well. Part of that goes to how the characters react to the situation. But this is where I have my problem. Besides Choji, Ino and Shikamaru acted like "stones" (as in no real sense of urgency from either of them). Yes, their respective fathers told them they need to put emotion aside to deal with the situation, but a single gasp from the latter 2 is hardly what I call a "reaction". It was more like watching salary men going about their routine and having it broken up by a possum jumping in front of them. Hell, even Izumo and Kotetsu showed more of a reaction to the trio facing Asuma. But perhaps I am being too harsh. After all, Kishimoto established 3 fights to take place in 1 chapter so perhaps I should lay off it.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Haak

Ugh, this is one of the big disappointments I have with this whole war. Kishimoto is pairing up the opposing sides so perfectly it's feeling less like a war and more like a whole series of individual fights.

A war where random side characters fight with noname evil guys would be quite boring, a good manga is about emotions, a good story is about emotions. It's not about some ninja fighting techniques and war arithmetic (who is strong and how many there are, etc.), these technical things are just tools. I think that Kishi did a good job, he finished Sasori's story very nicely, and he will continue with others too, for example Gaara will meet his father who used him and even tried to kill him, and there will be a nice closure to their story, with human emotions and stuff. That is what all mangas and stories are about, all else (jutsu, chakra, etc.) are just tools to tell a good (or bad) story.

[Im_A_MoP]

Just caught up with all the naruto chapters. Can't wait to see hanzou fight mifune. But imo it shouldn't really be a fight ..more like a curbstomp, unless as leader of the land of iron mifune has some super crazy awesome powers. From what I can see the only characters that should have been stronger than Hanzou in the entire naruto series (recently) are naruto(now), pain obviously, madara probably, and other than them it's all speculation for me.If mifune even manages to scratch him I will be very disappointed.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

A war where random side characters fight with noname evil guys would be quite boring, a good manga is about emotions, a good story is about emotions.

I disagree. Possibly the most interesting and entertaining bit in this war in my opinion was when the Kages spent most of that chapter talking tactics. And pretty much all stories that have a war plot tend to be like that (atleast all the ones I've seen/read) and still be entertaining. Perhaps it's simply a matter of taste.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Haak

I disagree. Possibly the most interesting and entertaining bit in this war in my opinion was when the Kages spent most of that chapter talking tactics. And pretty much all stories that have a war plot tend to be like that (atleast all the ones I've seen/read) and still be entertaining. Perhaps it's simply a matter of taste.

Then you are part of a minority
If i want to watch something about war tactics it's better to watch a documentary about the 1st or 2nd world war or Napoleon, etc. This tactical thing in Naruto might be interesting for 10 year olds, but it's a joke when compared to the real thing

Anyway, the recent few chapters did show real teamwork, since these Kinkaku+Ginkaku were just some random characters with no connection to anyone we can say that these chapters were about war and not about some emotional encounters (next chapter will be emotional with Asuma). But you can see that most of the audience found these chapters boring.

[Fran~]

Everybody enjoys things in different ways, there isn't only one way to do it.

I'm having the greatest time reading the manga now, i like where Kishi is going. But i do know that some people don't like it.

I don't like emotional things in mangas who are for kids. Dragonball was emotional just in a few moments, most of the time was about battles.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by DeDe

Does Neji and Hinata really need to fight Hizashi? No, but they will. Does Gaara really need to fight his father? No, but he will. Does Sakura need to fight Chiyo? No, but she will. The Japanese love close relationship stuff so they will eat this up.

I'm sorry, "close relationship stuff"? That is by no means exclusive to the Japanese.

Kishi knows his audience.

Yes. He certainly does.

That said, there still will be other fights. If Darui gets multiple fights, then the others will as well.

God forbid.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

A war where random side characters fight with noname evil guys would be quite boring,

Oh, you mean like this war?

a good manga is about emotions, a good story is about emotions.

Except when you do it wrong and it becomes an absolute catastrophe.

I think that Kishi did a good job, he finished Sasori's story very nicely,

Sasori's story finished back in the Sasori arc. Sasori returning and being defeated by love was extremely dopey.

and he will continue with others too, for example Gaara will meet his father who used him and even tried to kill him, and there will be a nice closure to their story, with human emotions and stuff.

Gaara: Daddy, I luvz you!

Gaara's dad: Yay! *disintegrates*

That is what all mangas and stories are about, all else (jutsu, chakra, etc.) are just tools to tell a good (or bad) story.

True, but even the tools used have to make sense.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Dragonball was emotional just in a few moments, most of the time was about battles.

I think our definition of emotion driven fighting is quite different. In DB/DBZ fights had often quite a lot of emotions, actually in all shonen mangas the fighters' power is often based on emotions. For example to go super saiyan Goku had to witness the death of his comrades, Gohan had to experience extreme anger to go SSJ 2 level. When Bulma tells the DBZ fighters to just destroy the androids now and dont wait 3 years and then fight they do not accept that, because they *loved* to fight, especially Goku whose life is all about his love for fighting. In Naruto we see how every powerup of the sharingan eye was caused by extreme emotions. We see how Madara wants Sasuke to become the one whose power comes from hate, while Naruto's power comes from love, and then we will have the big battle of hate and love in this manga just like there's something like this in most of the shonen mangas and other stories. Asking for logic in a shonen manga would be kinda stupid, when we read it we want to see emotions instead of logic, even if the characters act dumb because of this

In Naruto you can see this quite clearly: some ninja go as far as saying that a true ninja must kill his emotions and become "tools". But whoever is shown he will ultimately be driven by emotions. Just look at Danzou, it was his failed dream of becoming a hokage that drives him to do all what he did in the end. While he seems to be an emotionless old man throughout the whole story in the last chapter Kishimoto delivers a flashback that completely changes our perception of Danzou's thinking. That's one of the things why i like this manga.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

In Naruto we see how every powerup of the sharingan eye was caused by extreme emotions.

Yes indeed. The emotion known as whiny douchebaggery.

We see how Madara wants Sasuke to become the one whose power comes from hate, while Naruto's power comes from love, and then we will have the big battle of hate and love in this manga just like there's something like this in most of the shonen mangas and other stories.

You must not read a lot of shonen manga and...uh..."other stories."

Asking for logic in a shonen manga would be kinda stupid,

No it wouldn't.

when we read it we want to see emotions instead of logic, even if the characters act dumb because of this

There is logic behind emotions you know.

Now if you're talking about stuff like Goku putting his life on the line just because he loves fighting, then fine. But if you're talking about dumb crap like Naruto's man-crush on Sasuke, which has absolutely no logic behind it whatsoever, then no.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I think our definition of emotion driven fighting is quite different. In DB/DBZ fights had often quite a lot of emotions, actually in all shonen mangas the fighters' power is often based on emotions. For example to go super saiyan Goku had to witness the death of his comrades, Gohan had to experience extreme anger to go SSJ 2 level. When Bulma tells the DBZ fighters to just destroy the androids now and dont wait 3 years and then fight they do not accept that, because they *loved* to fight, especially Goku whose life is all about his love for fighting.

Yeah... but those were moments, half a chapter, some panels... To me, Vegeta's cry before he was killed by Freezer was emotional, sameway the moment before he launched the ultimate attack against Buu...

And... we can find moments like that in Naruto A LOT... what about Sandaime's speech about the "will of fire"?, what about Jiraiya's death? or when Tsunade snapped when Orochi was about to kill her and Naruto?.

You can have emotions in Naruto too.

But again, moments... there are moments to be emotional, to be funny, etc.

Asking for logic in a shonen manga would be kinda stupid, when we read it we want to see emotions instead of logic, even if the characters act dumb because of this

I think different, first, i can't say how the rest of the readers should react, also i can't say if this is the correct way or the incorrect one, because we are so different that it's impossible to react in the same way, besides, it would be so boring if everyone of us think the same about Naruto.

I made my mind years ago with mangas/animes in general, i don't ask too much, i don't have high expectations. Right now, i'm very disappointed with Bleach, but instead of bitching about it, i just laugh at it. With Naruto i very happy reading it just because i think is great to even think that Tenten found a legendary weapon and what can result of that Yeah, i'm being silly and naive, but what the hell, this manga is for kids...

I bet that even Kishi doesn't think so much about this as we do week after week

[james0246]

No spoilers yet, but Chapter 531 thread is now open. Please move relevant discussion to the new thread.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Yeah... but those were moments, half a chapter, some panels... To me, Vegeta's cry before he was killed by Freezer was emotional, sameway the moment before he launched the ultimate attack against Buu...

I meant that most of their decisions are based on emotions instead of logic. For example Vegeta had his pride of a saiyan prince and hated Freeza, and because of this he made many illogical things. The logical thing would be to accept that he can never beat Freeza, so it's better to just be one of Freeza's soldiers and live an easy and safe life by destorying weak people on random planets and collecting riches. Instead of that Vegeta rebels and is later killed by Freeza. Goku chooses to die instead of listening to his brother's orders. And so on.
Just a few emotional decisions of presumably smart people in Naruto:
- Tsunade instead of locking Naruto in the village sends him to fight akatsuki, because she likes Naruto and "believes in him". Sure sending a kid to fight S-class criminals who actually want to capture that kid is logical.
- Jiraiya leaving the village to go after Orochimaru instead of just accepting the kage position, since logically thinking Jiraiya was the strongest leaf ninja so he should be the hokage. Sure there is some logic here, since Jiraiya didn't like that job, so it's logical to not accept.
- Kakashi helping Naruto to talk with the raikage, but he should know that there's exactly zero chance of that succeeding
- Shikamaru's father lets Naruto go alone to talk with Pain/Nagato. Because Shikamaru believes Naruto is special.
- Sasuke instead of escaping from the kage summit place fights against all the kages, a mindless rage based on strong hate.
- Danzou instead of realizing that he failed to become hokage tries desperately to become hokage at old age. He even goes as far as betraying the hokages, helping Orochimaru in his experiments.
- Minato deciding that it's best for Naruto and the village that he dies, so that nobody really strong exists who would be able to defend the village against someone like Madara. Sure he had faith in a newborn child being able fight against Madara if Madara somehow comes back and wants the kyuubi again. It's also logical to not tell to anybody that Madara is alive.

I mean these characters don't have to actually cry or laugh maniacally for us to know that they are driven by emotions.

So everything that the characters in this manga do are ultimately based on emotions and not logic. I would say there are "moments" of logic here and there, but it's not how things work.

Originally Posted by Fran~

Yeah, i'm being silly and naive, but what the hell, this manga is for kids...

Well, while we read a chapter we can be kids for a few minutes, just leave out our "logical" self and be emotional

[MidnightViper88]

Just as one last note to this thread, the news is old, but if anyone's been wondering about relevance, the Banana Fan is currently in possession with the marketing arm of Dole in Japan...