F/SN UBW TV - Episode 24 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Gaulek

Fate/Kaleid 2wei herz will do that this summer too

Spoiler for spoil:

and even show where it is.

(And Lord El-Melloi 2 is also in kaleid.)

With a spin-off you can expect it will spoil stuff from the main series. I'm just talking about the main series. I don't expect every person who is going to watch the main series will also be watching Fate/kaleid liner Prisma☆Illya.

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

Pretty good episode in most respects, but I'm not fan of DEM which brought it down a bit. Gilgamesh vs Shirou was kind of let down too since he still did his usually shtick when even he knew wasn't working anymore.

If you're talking about Gilgamesh, then it was no surprised that he still used his usual shtick.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

Pretty good episode in most respects, but I'm not fan of DEM which brought it down a bit. Gilgamesh vs Shirou was kind of let down too since he still did his usually shtick when even he knew wasn't working anymore.

I suppose by "DEM", you mean "dues ex machina" and not "deus ex machina".

"Deus ex machina" means "a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object", which did not happen here, as a) there was a gradual buildup of Shirou's abilities, accelerated both by contact with Archer (his alt future self) and a massive injection of mana from Rin, b) Gilgamesh actually has an ego so big that it literally killed him, and c) Archer simply faked his (earlier) death.

"Dues ex machina" is the internet version, which generally means "I didn't understand/like this development".

[Levani]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

I suppose by "DEM", you mean "dues ex machina" and not "deus ex machina".

"Deus ex machina" means "a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object", which did not happen here, as a) there was a gradual buildup of Shirou's abilities, accelerated both by contact with Archer (his alt future self) and a massive injection of mana from Rin, b) Gilgamesh actually has an ego so big that it literally killed him, and c) Archer simply faked his (earlier) death.

"Dues ex machina" is the internet version, which generally means "I didn't understand/like this development".

God, what a great post Reminds me of when I have to explain what a "plot hole" is to people.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

I suppose by "DEM", you mean "dues ex machina" and not "deus ex machina".

"Deus ex machina" means "a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object", which did not happen here, as a) there was a gradual buildup of Shirou's abilities, accelerated both by contact with Archer (his alt future self) and a massive injection of mana from Rin, b) Gilgamesh actually has an ego so big that it literally killed him, and c) Archer simply faked his (earlier) death.

"Dues ex machina" is the internet version, which generally means "I didn't understand/like this development".

Hey! I claimed copy-right on the "Dues Ex Machina" explanation!

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by ShadowSamurai365

If you're talking about Gilgamesh, then it was no surprised that he still used his usual shtick.

Even Gil saw that his own tactics were no longer working, but still mostly sat around and spammed GoB. I was at least expecting him duel Shirou aggressively now that he could recognize he couldn't fight primary with GoB. Arrogance is one thing, stupidity is another.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

I suppose by "DEM", you mean "dues ex machina" and not "deus ex machina".

"Deus ex machina" means "a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object", which did not happen here, as a) there was a gradual buildup of Shirou's abilities, accelerated both by contact with Archer (his alt future self) and a massive injection of mana from Rin, b) Gilgamesh actually has an ego so big that it literally killed him, and c) Archer simply faked his (earlier) death.

"Dues ex machina" is the internet version, which generally means "I didn't understand/like this development".

I'm pretty much talking about the later in this case (I've never even heard of the former). I don't have any problem with Shirou and Rin what did, their developments are fine and logically explain in the narrative. I have problem with Archer suddenly showing up after all that big show about him dying.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

I'm pretty much talking about the later in this case (I've never even heard of the former). I don't have any problem with Shirou and Rin what did, their developments are fine and logically explain in the narrative. I have problem with Archer suddenly showing up after all that big show about him dying.

It was foreshadowed 3 times that you cannot trust that someone "died" just because it seems so:

Kirei was "killed" by Caster but then he just appeard again, surprise!
Gil was sure that Berserker is really dead... for three times.
Lancer killed himself and was dead... OR NOT!

Considering all this is it really "extraordinary" for Archer to survive as well?

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

It was foreshadowed 3 times that you cannot trust that someone "died" just because it seems so:

Kirei was "killed" by Caster but then he just appeard again, surprise!
Gil was sure that Berserker is really dead... for three times.
Lancer killed himself and was dead... OR NOT!

Considering all this is it really "extraordinary" for Archer to survive as well?

I don't like how those deaths were handled either and frankly I consider it and most events similar bad writing. It's not like I have problem with resurrection if there are elements in lore/story to support it instead conveniently last minute "oh wait! I actually have such and such ability, so I couldn't die till just yet!".

[Haak]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

It was foreshadowed 3 times that you cannot trust that someone "died" just because it seems so:

Kirei was "killed" by Caster but then he just appeard again, surprise!
Gil was sure that Berserker is really dead... for three times.
Lancer killed himself and was dead... OR NOT!

Considering all this is it really "extraordinary" for Archer to survive as well?

As far as I recall Kirei was never shown to have taken any fatal blows (and even if he did we'd know he would survive thanks to the grail.)

Berserker has God Hand and a loli.

And Lancer died from his wounds ten minutes later.

Besides, Archer's survival isn't even the issue: it's the extent of it. Archer was able to survive being impaled by a load of swords, last for an entire day afterwards then summon Rho Arias and fire a hoarde of arrows. Not only that but he managed to somehow fake his death in front of two mages and two servants. That's the kind of escaping I'd expect more from Caster than Archer.

I'm just going to go ahead and assume it's the counterforce.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Haak

Archer was able to survive being impaled by a load of swords, last for an entire day afterwards then summon Rho Arias and fire a hoarde of bows.

I'm pretty sure he fired a bunch of arrows, not bows. That'd be kinda useless and even Gilgamesh would be justified in killing him then.

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by Haak

Besides, Archer's survival isn't even the issue: it's the extent of it. Archer was able to survive being impaled by a load of swords, last for an entire day afterwards then summon Rho Arias and fire a hoarde of arrows. Not only that but he managed to somehow fake his death in front of two mages and two servants. That's the kind of escaping I'd expect more from Caster than Archer.

In the anime, it's Shirou who used the RA, not Archer.

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

Even Gil saw that his own tactics were no longer working, but still mostly sat around and spammed GoB. I was at least expecting him duel Shirou aggressively now that he could recognize he couldn't fight primary with GoB. Arrogance is one thing, stupidity is another.



I'm pretty much talking about the later in this case (I've never even heard of the former). I don't have any problem with Shirou and Rin what did, their developments are fine and logically explain in the narrative. I have problem with Archer suddenly showing up after all that big show about him dying.

Actually, that arrogance is what he's been displaying this entire time: in both Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night; along with being provoked way too easily when it comes to himself. Lancelot is the best example of this in Fate/Zero. In the first fight, Gilgamesh gets angry (the first time) when Lancelot touched his weapons and just fires more weapons at him. After Lancelot made Gilgamesh to stand on the ground, Gilgamesh just decides to get more angry and just decided to open more gates at him. When Caster's Chuthulu monster showed up and Gilgamesh and Lancelot were on planes, you expected Gilgamesh to come up something differently against him (or at least take him seriously). Instead, he thinks that it'll be more fun (I facepalm when he said that). Then, when Lancelot decided to focus entirely on Saber; instead on using this opportunity to attack him, Gilgamesh just chases him while being mad/angry, saying close to the line of " How dare you turn you back and ignore me, you mad dog!". Then the next thing you know, Lancelot blows up his ship. The worst part is that Gil didn't learn from that, he just sticks to the ego he has; along with stubbornly sticking to whatever decision he wants to make. Gilgamesh was, truthfully, pushing his death flag this entire time with that attitude.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by HtwoN

In the anime, it's Shirou who used the RA, not Archer.

Yes, but that RA is used by Shirou in the VN as well (the one Shirou uses inside the RM is anime-only though).

The "off-screen" one Archer supposedly used in the VN is the one which blocked the direct Ea blast from Gil. There was no need for it in the anime, since Shirou could survive by himself and without a need for a shield, because Gil targeted grail-kun's arm instead.

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Yes, but that RA is used by Shirou in the VN as well (the one Shirou uses inside the RM is anime-only though).

The "off-screen" one Archer supposedly used in the VN is the one which blocked the direct Ea blast from Gil. There was no need for it in the anime, since Shirou could survive by himself and without a need for a shield, because Gil targeted grail-kun's arm instead.

Was that explained in the VN? Or that was just another Nasu retcon? I don't remember exactly.

Nevertheless, kudo for the anime.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by HtwoN

Was that explained in the VN? Or that was just another Nasu retcon? I don't remember exactly.

Gil said something about "that should have been fatal. Did you project some kind of shield? Well whatever..." in the VN, so it was kind of implied and later on confirmed by Nasu.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Hey! I claimed copy-right on the "Dues Ex Machina" explanation!

That is entirely possible. We're both on here a lot, so I might have seen it in one of your posts and just subconsciously internalized it. Either that or great minds think alike. ^_^

[Dengar]

Stay Night and Zero, by their very nature, spoil eachother. It really is too late to complain about spoilers when you watch either one. Instead, be curious about those spoilers that only have been lightly mentioned, and wonder about the how instead of the what. It really isn't rocket surgery.

Originally Posted by Levani

God, what a great post Reminds me of when I have to explain what a "plot hole" is to people.

A plot hole? Isn't that when they give an explanation for things that I don't understand?

[Top Sergeant]

For the forthcoming Epilogue episode I really want to see Shirou give Rin a big kiss. We loyal viewers deserve at least that much!

[Levani]

A plot hole? Isn't that when they give an explanation for things that I don't understand?

A lot of people think that a plot hole is something the story doesn't explain but the real definition of a plot hole is 'when something contradicts a previously established rule for no real reason'

For example, if Fate/Zero had Ilya as the daughter of Irisviel and Fate/Stay Night had her as Maya's daughter we'd have a plot hole that contradicts a previously established information. When a story has a hole in it that makes no logical sense, with statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline, we have a plot hole.

[Dengar]

I was trying to make a funny but I forgot the emoticon. I actually knew what a plot hole is. :P