(L) ID: Invaded

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Waste of time. He might not have surrendered immediately, and then it's right back to "I'm going to kill Inami".

You have strange idea of what constitutes a waste of time, if you think one minute of trying a way that won't potentially get you or someone else killed is one.

What about warning shots? Are those also a waste of time (and bullets) since the criminal might not surrender immediately?

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

What, back when all she had was a hunch that Inami was the Gravedigger?

If she didn't have a logical argument then the fact that Inami was the culprit was just dumb luck and Hondomachi is a walking mine that can potentially pull that kind of stunt to a completely innocent person.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And if she hadn't, he might have escaped and killed again.

He could have also killed her, Matsuoka, and then escaped and killed again.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Waste of time. He might not have surrendered immediately, and then it's right back to "I'm going to kill Inami".

It's not in her authority to make that call, logical or not. Hondomachi was not in enough immediate danger to warrant calling it self-defense either.

She could certainly threaten the death penalty after a due process ending in conviction, but the way she handled it makes it look like she really could have killed Inami without batting an eye.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

It's not in her authority to make that call, logical or not. Hondomachi was not in enough immediate danger to warrant calling it self-defense either.

It looks to me like she was just bluffing to provoke an emotional reaction and keep Kazuta off balance. And it worked.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You have strange idea of what constitutes a waste of time, if you think one minute of trying a way that won't potentially get you or someone else killed is one.

I'm pointing out that the two courses of action are basically the same, with the same outcomes, except that by going directly to "I'm going to kill her", Hondoumachi leaves Kazuta less time to think of a way out. If Kazuta was the type to surrender just because they had a hostage (which BTW isn't a legal thing for police officers to do, not that Hondoumachi's approach doesn't have problems on that front), he could yell his surrender just as well when she talked about killing Inami.

And if he's not, then what? Shout progressively less credible threats while Kazuta decides on his best course of action?

The only way it could have helped is if Kazuta was the type to negotiate and they could have kept him busy with a nice long chat. Did he look talkative to you?

What about warning shots? Are those also a waste of time (and bullets) since the criminal might not surrender immediately?

Depends on the circumstances. When the guy is rushing you at close range with a knife, then yes, absolutely. Don't fire warning shots.

If she didn't have a logical argument then the fact that Inami was the culprit was just dumb luck and Hondomachi is a walking mine that can potentially pull that kind of stunt to a completely innocent person.

She had a hunch, so she pressed Inami until she gave herself away. In minutes. It's a valid police tactic. And should she do it to an innocent person, then I guess she can apologize and walk away. What of it?

He could have also killed her, Matsuoka, and then escaped and killed again.

Indeed, that could have happened. There was no safe course of action, unless you count "the cops walk away alive but the serial killers go free for now" as acceptable. I'm just saying that the course she picked wasn't the riskiest.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm pointing out that the two courses of action are basically the same, with the same outcomes, except that by going directly to "I'm going to kill her", Hondoumachi leaves Kazuta less time to think of a way out. If Kazuta was the type to surrender just because they had a hostage (which BTW isn't a legal thing for police officers to do, not that Hondoumachi's approach doesn't have problems on that front), he could yell his surrender just as well when she talked about killing Inami.

The point is that Hondomachi couldn't know for sure that it wouldn't have worked, but the non deadly path was never considered by her.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Depends on the circumstances. When the guy is rushing you at close range with a knife, then yes, absolutely. Don't fire warning shots.

That's really not a situation that can be compared to Hondomachi's situation.
She wasn't under direct threat at that time and she decided to bluff to lure the killer out. She had the option to bluff to make the killer surrender or bluff to make the killer attack her, which would only end in either her or the killer dying.

She chose the option that would led to a casualty before even trying the option that would solve the situation without bloodshed. Which is literally not what a policeman should ever do.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's really not a situation that can be compared to Hondomachi's situation.
She wasn't under direct threat at that time and she decided to bluff to lure the killer out. She had the option to bluff to make the killer surrender or bluff to make the killer attack her, which would only end in either her or the killer dying.

She chose the option that would led to a casualty before even trying the option that would solve the situation without bloodshed. Which is literally not what a policeman should ever do.

She was under direct threat.

Kazuta had the high ground, so she couldn't tell when he was coming to attack, and he already proved that he was deadly with those knives. If he managed to surprise them, one or both of them could really have died.

If they tried to bluff to force his surrender, he would have just called it.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The point is that Hondomachi couldn't know for sure that it wouldn't have worked, but the non deadly path was never considered by her.

Taking a hostage isn't a non-deadly path.

Again, it's no different from what she did aside from minor tweaks to presentation, and leaving Kazuta more time to either flee or counter-attack. You could, I suppose, argue that those tweaks would have had a greater chance of persuading him to surrender, but I find that doubtful.

That's really not a situation that can be compared to Hondomachi's situation.

That's exactly the situation she was in when she actually shot at him. If not then, when should she have shot "warning shots", and where should she have aimed them?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Endscape

She was under direct threat.

Kazuta had the high ground, so she couldn't tell when he was coming to attack, and he already proved that he was deadly with those knives. If he managed to surprise them, one or both of them could really have died.

That simply doesn't make sense. Hondomachi knew that he was upstairs, but she didn't know where he could attack from?

Originally Posted by Endscape

If they tried to bluff to force his surrender, he would have just called it.

Since he fell for the bluff of an officer shooting an unharmed criminal, what makes you think so?

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Taking a hostage isn't a non-deadly path.

It is if it's a bluff.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Again, it's no different from what she did aside from minor tweaks to presentation, and leaving Kazuta more time to either flee or counter-attack.

It's the same thing you could say for warning shots. Firing warning shots always entails an increased risk of the criminal fleeing. Do I really need to explain why then "warning shots" is a thing?

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

That's exactly the situation she was in when she actually shot at him. If not then, when should she have shot "warning shots", and where should she have aimed them?

She didn't pull her bluff when he was attacking her, she pull it when he retreated upstairs. And she didn't do that to prevent herself from being attacked but to force him to attack her. Basically she did it to prevent Kazuta from fleeing, which is why I compared the situation to the one where you usually fire "warning shots". Because "warning shots" are fired when a criminal is fleeing not when they are attacking you.

And yeah I didn't say that Hondomachi should have fire warning shots, I used that as a comparison.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

She didn't pull her bluff when he was attacking her, she pull it when he retreated upstairs. And she didn't do that to prevent herself from being attacked but to force him to attack her. Basically she did it to prevent Kazuta from fleeing, which is why I compared the situation to the one where you usually fire "warning shots". Because "warning shots" are fired when a criminal is fleeing not when they are attacking you.

And yeah I didn't say that Hondomachi should have fire warning shots, I used that as a comparison.

Her main intent wasn't to prevent him from fleeing, but to kill him with her own hands. And like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure she planned the whole thing so she could obtain particles from Inami, even though she had already confessed. It turned out for the best this time, but I can understand why Matsuoka would be pissed off and think she's a danger to those around her.

To me, waiting for back-up and holding the position would have been the most sensible course of action. Certainly better than outright provoking him.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That simply doesn't make sense. Hondomachi knew that he was upstairs, but she didn't know where he could attack from?

Presumably she doesn't know the house nearly as well as he, so, no.

Since he fell for the bluff of an officer shooting an unharmed criminal, what makes you think so?

Precisely because of what he did. He didn't yell "Stop, I'll surrender". He gave the assault.

It is if it's a bluff.

Not even then, especially if the guy believes you. Because, as we saw, the guy may choose to attack.

It's the same thing you could say for warning shots. Firing warning shots always entails an increased risk of the criminal fleeing. Do I really need to explain why then "warning shots" is a thing?

Warning shots are situational.

She didn't pull her bluff when he was attacking her, she pull it when he retreated upstairs. And she didn't do that to prevent herself from being attacked but to force him to attack her. Basically she did it to prevent Kazuta from fleeing, which is why I compared the situation to the one where you usually fire "warning shots". Because "warning shots" are fired when a criminal is fleeing not when they are attacking you.

And yeah I didn't say that Hondomachi should have fire warning shots, I used that as a comparison.

Seeing as your comparison only obfuscates your point instead of making it clearer, it's not a very good one.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Her main intent wasn't to prevent him from fleeing, but to kill him with her own hands. And like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure she planned the whole thing so she could obtain particles from Inami, even though she had already confessed. It turned out for the best this time, but I can understand why Matsuoka would be pissed off and think she's a danger to those around her.

To me, waiting for back-up and holding the position would have been the most sensible course of action. Certainly better than outright provoking him.

Probably. Unless she worried about the knife sticking out of Matsuoka's back. Or what Kazuta might do if she let him think. (Would he escape? What other weapons does he have in the house? Explosives?)

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That simply doesn't make sense. Hondomachi knew that he was upstairs, but she didn't know where he could attack from?

What I said was they couldn't tell when he would attack, since they couldn't see him from their position.

He could easily have jumped off and taken one or both of them out if they were unlucky or distracted.

As Anh Minh pointed out, he knows the terrain better than they do, and could have gone around to attack from somewhere else too.

Since he fell for the bluff of an officer shooting an unharmed criminal, what makes you think so?

It's one thing to bluff that you'll shoot someone, it's another entirely to pretend that you've actually already shot them. The basics of deception is not giving the opponent time to think.

Originally Posted by Kanon

To me, waiting for back-up and holding the position would have been the most sensible course of action. Certainly better than outright provoking him.

Waiting where they were could easily have gotten them killed. Really, they should have tried barricading themselves in another room until backup arrived.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Waiting where they were could easily have gotten them killed. Really, they should have tried barricading themselves in another room until backup arrived.

Moving, especially in a house they don't know and with a prisoner, has its own hazards.

Really, there was no perfect course of action. It's hard to say Hondoumachi chose the best, but I really don't think she picked the worst, either.

[Irenesharda]

Probably the best episode we've seen in a while.

But come on, really? You couldn't have written RED HERRING and SET UP across the screen in bright red marker and not have been more obvious than this episode was.
Momoki is soooo not the killer/John Walker it hurts.

Handomachi as a detective is okay, but honestly, she's the least interesting of all of them so far. Her outfit is horrible and her attitude is way too cold. Similar to what we saw when she killed Kazuta. Sakaido at least has a compassion about him when he goes into the well. And why is she the only one with a full name? Is it because she's more compatible? Because she's a girl? What?

It was cool that we got to fill in the blanks with Sakaido's past and his well. His wife killed herself and he just up and rang the doorbell and filled his daughter's killer full of holes. Don't blame him honestly.
I'm a little confused about this particle business. So, the wells stay around even after death? And yet in episode 1, we see that the id wells change based on real-time. How can that be? Wouldn't the id well die if the person it's connected to does in that case?

Anyway, other than that, it was kind of sad to see Sakaido's well and that it began the moment of his daughter's death and just keeps going. Also how he tried his best to save people by sacrificing himself.

I don't think Sakaido believes Momoki is John Walker, but he needs to be sure. Because if he is, he'll probably kill him himself after pretending to be his friend all this time. But I'm 98% sure that he's not so we'll have to find who the real killer is (and I have a pretty good idea who at this point.)

Also, do these killers get a trial at all? Because they seem to just stick them in this facility and call it a day. And they're stuck in there like, a day after they're caught. It's just interesting that they would do that.
And why do they keep sticking them right next to Sakaido? Do they really have that little room in this weird future prison?

So now things are heating up but how are they going to get Handomachi out of a well within a well? This isn't Inception so I'm not sure how she would be able to release herself. How do you even do that? How do you upload someone's cognition particles into a "machine" in someone else's id?

[GDB]

We knew they stick around after death, because they had Fukoda (I think that was his name) dive into the sniper's well after he had already commit suicide.

As for updating in real time, I don't think it's a guarantee. They seemed surprised that Narihisago's well was linked to his present self, after all.

As for the real John Walker... yeah this is such an obvious set-up. None of that evidence is concrete, and can be easily faked. And the one with the easiest means of doing so is the old man whose name I forget but is his boss. Who better to set you up via having your computer access incriminating data than your boss who can likely circumvent any passwords you set up?

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by GDB

We knew they stick around after death, because they had Fukoda (I think that was his name) dive into the sniper's well after he had already commit suicide.

As for updating in real time, I don't think it's a guarantee. They seemed surprised that Narihisago's well was linked to his present self, after all.

As for the real John Walker... yeah this is such an obvious set-up. None of that evidence is concrete, and can be easily faked. And the one with the easiest means of doing so is the old man whose name I forget but is his boss. Who better to set you up via having your computer access incriminating data than your boss who can likely circumvent any passwords you set up?

We've seen the wells update when the Perforator kidnapped Handomachi and suddenly she was now in his well. It's just weird to me that if the id well represents the person's id in real-time and how it changes. The whole thing should just fall apart when they die. But then again, how do I know how "cognition particles" work?
I mean, how were the particles still in the house if something as simple as the wind can carry them away? Your telling me no wind or breeze has ever come through that house in all that time?

Momoki is definitely getting set up, but it IS damning evidence. I mean, how did he not notice someone dug up his yard and buried a body there who knows how long ago? And they probably planted his fingerprints on stuff and planted the real JW's clothes there as well. And then all the computer records. And with Japan's legal system the way it is, especially in this universe which doesn't seem to do much of a trial with these killers, he might get tossed in prison in no time.

[Shadow5YA]

Personally I found the whole pi sequence to be more contrived than anything else. As if anyone would be able to recognize anywhere near beyond 10 million digits of pi

I suspected the real John Walker was the department chief along, so framing Momoki wasn't much of a surprise. Even if John Walker's face was censored, we could see he was a middle-aged male with a beard. The only one who fits that profile is the chief.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

We've seen the wells update when the Perforator kidnapped Handomachi and suddenly she was now in his well. It's just weird to me that if the id well represents the person's id in real-time and how it changes. The whole thing should just fall apart when they die. But then again, how do I know how "cognition particles" work?
I mean, how were the particles still in the house if something as simple as the wind can carry them away? Your telling me no wind or breeze has ever come through that house in all that time?

Momoki is definitely getting set up, but it IS damning evidence. I mean, how did he not notice someone dug up his yard and buried a body there who knows how long ago? And they probably planted his fingerprints on stuff and planted the real JW's clothes there as well. And then all the computer records. And with Japan's legal system the way it is, especially in this universe which doesn't seem to do much of a trial with these killers, he might get tossed in prison in no time.

Or maybe it'll depend on whether they can find his murder particles...

[Irenesharda]

Well, they would have to in order to enter his well and that is what they are hinting at. Though, myy guess is either someone is going to plant particles (however that works) or the real killer's particles will be there and they will assume that they are Momoki's. I mean, it's not like the particle ID their owners or anything. The only reason the machines can ID them is if they have them on record. All the unknown killer's particles are just given the name of the killer they are hunting at the time.

[4th Dimension]

I'm pretty sure the reason Perforator's well updated back then is because they ran into more particles, that is Hondoumachi's own murder particle detector detected them and uploaded them while she was being grabbed.

[Applehell]

I'm with the group thinks its the chief although it's more of a feeling than anything concrete. Momoki is way too obvious of a red-herring even if we suppose he's hiding something.


EDIT: Also his reaction to seeing Muku and Sakaido's wife is was far too sincere and it seemed like their deaths affect him too emotionally. It's hard to buy he be the mastermind who would deliberately get he had attachment to like that killed.

[Kanon]

Miyo Hijiriido. Her appearance didn't change but I really like her outfit. Hat and mantle inspired by Sherlock Holmes and she's wearing short shorts, thigh highs and presumably a sports bra underneath. Unlike Anaido, she has a survival instinct, and unlike Sakaido, she doesn't go out of her way to save people but will still do it if it doesn't impede her mission. That may make her the best brilliant detective out of the three, as she's completely focused on solving the mystery no matter what.

Momoki is finally getting some screentime. He was said to be the second most important character after Narihisago, so it's about time. And of course he's not John Walker. I really hope it's not the director though, way too obvious.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

We've seen the wells update when the Perforator kidnapped Handomachi and suddenly she was now in his well. It's just weird to me that if the id well represents the person's id in real-time and how it changes. The whole thing should just fall apart when they die. But then again, how do I know how "cognition particles" work?
I mean, how were the particles still in the house if something as simple as the wind can carry them away? Your telling me no wind or breeze has ever come through that house in all that time?

Wells don't update themselves, they're a snapshot of a killer's ID. Fukuda/Perforator's well only updated because he was holding the activated Wakumusubi. Narihisago is a special case, and they're speculating it's because he's been diving so much. Maybe his mind is linked to the machine now or something. No clue why his Well can enable one to dive into the Well of the girl Momoki saved. Some are saying she might be Kaeru because she looks like her, but I don't see it.