US Elections 2012 Part I: The Primaries/Caucus

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

Well, how often do you see a national leader holding an umbrella for someone else?

For me the photo at least means two things: 1) there is great appreciation that the Chinese hold for Kissinger, who helped open China up to the rest of the world. 2) it in some way acknowledge the fact that the US is the sole superpower on earth which China (willingly or not), has to look up to (for the days to come).

That's why I found the idea that China going to confront the US directly pretty silly. China do not want to return back to the days where it is cut off from the rest of the world, and it knows the limits of its own strength.

Once China develops to a sophisticated consumer economy then the trade situation will balance itself out.

Military actions between the US and China are only tense because of trade issues.

One economy struggling against the other.

There isn't a real political discord between the US and china.... just Economics.

China has a thing for American and European made brand name goods... especially cars.

The US auto industry can make a killing in China if they play their cards right.

Trade is the only way to keep the world harmonious.

I could be wrong however.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

See how many dim witss in the USA rejoiced at the earth quake that hit Japan last year ?

They were all harping about karma and Perl Harbour, yet MOST OF THESE people were never born during that time and were only told by their GRANDPARENTS or history books what Perl Harbour was about. The same with the Chinese and Koreans.

Not only that, but the US got more than enough revenge during WW2.

Not only that, but Pearl harbour was a military target, it wasn't any kind of attrocity. If the Chinese claimed revenge for Nanking, they'd have a bit more reason, but even then that's still over 70 years ago now. It just seems in really poor spirit to use an occassion where millions of people's homes and livelihoods were destroyed as an excuse to bring up something from World War 2. Not only that but one of the few WW2 incidents with almost no civilian casualties.

[Ithekro]

For the most part,the claims of karma/revenge from the earthquake stopped once the death count got over 3,000. By the time it was over 9,000 and different kind of morbid meme took over.

[Kokukirin]

On the other hand, Japanese government has been rather dodgy when it comes to WWII history. There are plenty of revisionist Japanese refusing to acknowledge, or whitewashing, many atrocities committed to civilians. The most reported of them are probably the "comfort women" forced to be sex slaves for Japanese soldiers, and the Nanjing massacre where many thousands died.

I don't think Chinese and Koreans are out for revenge, but their demands for official apology and compensation have largely fell on deaf Japanese ears. One can hardly blame them for not viewing Japan in a positive light.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by Kokukirin

On the other hand, Japanese government has been rather dodgy when it comes to WWII history. There are plenty of revisionist Japanese refusing to acknowledge, or whitewashing, many atrocities committed to civilians. The most reported of them are probably the "comfort women" forced to be sex slaves for Japanese soldiers, and the Nanjing massacre where many thousands died.

I don't think Chinese and Koreans are out for revenge, but their demands for official apology and compensation have largely fell on deaf Japanese ears. One can hardly blame them for not viewing Japan in a positive light.

Here is the problem that Japan faces.

How do you save national face when you admit to the atrocities that you committed ?

How do you tell your nations children, that yes possible your grandpa was a military bastard ?

Was the Emperor too also an evil person ?

War was then a matter of good over evil ?

In Japan the war described as a holy war against white imperialism !

How was it that the god emperor was defeated when the cause was righteous ?

If Japan admits wrong, does it remove the dead disgraced soldiers from yaskuni ?

Do the shinto priests abandon those souls ?

I would be interested to know how Germany dealt with the internal after effects of the holocaust (I haven't done the research) and how they educate their children on that matter ?

I think Japan is ashamed of admitting to hubris and the fact that its Japanese superiority ideology was resonantly beaten by the "lazy, gangster culture, car loving white barbarians"

[Ithekro]

Rome was defeated by barbarians. It happens. At least Japan survived more or less intact.

[ganbaru]

I don't think than their situation after WW2 would qualify as ''more or less intact''.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

I don't think than their situation after WW2 would qualify as ''more or less intact''.

Its not often in History where the conquerors help you to rebuild your nation.

Gen. MacArthur and the Truman administration made sure to help Japan rebuild its economy and set in motion the steps that got it to where it is today.

In fact shortly after the war, (1947) W. Edward Demmings was instrumental in helping Japan reboot its industrial sectors especially with his management and quality principles. So much was done by him that he got the Japanese Order of the Sacred Treasure, Second Class (in 1960).

What is funny is that the techniques of Demmings wasn't adopted by many American companies until around the 1980's when Japan was whipping them left right and center in almost every area of high tech industry.

So considering that Japan got a whole lot of help form those same "barbarians" it does put an unique twist on the political situation.

China is also getting alot of help form the USA.

So I see no military reason for China to bite the hand that feeds it.

It is the USA that seems uncomfortable with China's rise in the face of their own crumbling industrial sector and the massive trade deficit, which is being pushed forward by un-necessary wars in the middle east and phyric level foreign policy.

But agian, I could be wrong.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

I don't think than their situation after WW2 would qualify as ''more or less intact''.

Especially when the allies bombed the crap out of the place and threatened to turned it into another Dresden. Almost came true when the silly ultra-nationalists insisted on fighting to the last man.

[Vexx]

Back in election news ... http://amultiverse.com/2012/01/09/race-to-the-bottom/

[Ithekro]

Japan survives. Their cuture survived. Their nation survives, and their people survived. The place was blown to hell, but as mentioned the invaders rebuilt the place. And not entirely in their own image. In almost all other cases of a civilization being stomped on like the Americans and Allies stomped on Japan (and Germany) to end the war...those civilizations tend to be erased from history....or become exiles. For once...that didn't happen. Both survived and eventually prospered. Sure their governments and recent cultural changes were wiped out (Japan's militant governement and some of its military culture...though the older forms of that survive from the days of the samuri. Nazi Germany was destroyed, but German culture prior to 1933 survived.), but the older parts of the civilizations remained intact.

Rome did not get such a boon. They were destroyed. Eventually their legacy would return in different places, but that culture was effectively destroyed...save for the church.


We hope to be so lucky when the United States falls...should it fall rather than be assimulated or assend to the next level of government (be that a one world government, or planetary state within an interplanetary or orbital colony structure governement)

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

We hope to be so lucky when the United States falls...should it fall rather than be assimulated or assend to the next level of government (be that a one world government, or planetary state within an interplanetary or orbital colony structure governement)

One popular theory is that USA would just split along Party lines. i.e. the Civil War part 2. Which is better than general anarchy because at least you would still have functional government.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

One popular theory is that USA would just split along Party lines. i.e. the Civil War part 2. Which is better than general anarchy because at least you would still have functional government.

The first Civil War at least was along geographic lines. If it really splits along party lines... Then what? Of course, if you go by stereotypes, the GOP has all the guns and food, so it might be a pretty short war.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

One popular theory is that USA would just split along Party lines. i.e. the Civil War part 2. Which is better than general anarchy because at least you would still have functional government.

which is the same as geographical lines.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

which is the same as geographical lines.

Obviously there would be some differences to the original Civil war, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again for real, that the sides deliberately use the old conflict to draw the separation zone.

Though I suspect the GOP would come out worse for wear if it happens. Because if current events are any indication, the GOP is split into three groups right now; the religious right, the moderate right, and the libertarians. If a complete separation with the Democrats occur then they would no longer have a common enemy.

This might explain why in the GitS SAC TV series universe the United States fractured into three nations instead of two.

[Vexx]

That's a lot of relocation and moving around :P
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/2008/

[Zetsubo]

The USA will never have another civil war.

People are not going to fight a war because a few idiotic politicians want to see who can piss the furthest.

The cost would be too great

America won't fall in any of the melo dramatic ways we bandy about online.

It will get old the very same way its Father Britain did.

Got too big to maintain its own weight and then a slow miserable decompression until only the original nation is left.

China will fill the vacuum.

Asia is on the rise and the European/Anglo Saxon power system is failing primarily because of greed and idiotic ideological conflicts.

Of course unless this power system becomes the overman (ubermensch) as Nietschie properly described (not the version the Nazi and his Sister created)

A society that can overcome its greed, lust, desire for vapid entertainment, idiotic religious fights and financial wrangline and move toward a higher goal (Gundam 00 style ??)

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Obviously there would be some differences to the original Civil war, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again for real, that the sides deliberately use the old conflict to draw the separation zone.

Though I suspect the GOP would come out worse for wear if it happens. Because if current events are any indication, the GOP is split into three groups right now; the religious right, the moderate right, and the libertarians. If a complete separation with the Democrats occur then they would no longer have a common enemy.

This might explain why in the GitS SAC TV series universe the United States fractured into three nations instead of two.

if the US fracture, it will leave more then 3 nations.

Hawaii will get it is Sovereignty back
Alaska will declare independence
Texas - if the are smart will go it alone. The Red States around it will be a drain on its economy
Cali, Oregon, Washington will become a West Coast Nation
New England states will band together
Wisconsin and Michigan might petition to join Canada.
Florida is pretty much on its own

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

The USA will never have another civil war.

People are not going to fight a war because a few idiotic politicians want to see who can piss the furthest.

Well, most of the GOP candidates don't seem to have a problem with starting a new war in Iran. The anti-war sentiment of America is just not as strong as anyone likes it.

Granted, a civil war is different because you will be threatening your own homes. But these days I have long since stopped believing American politics have any restraint at all. I can't count anything out.

[RandySyler]

if the US fracture, it will leave more then 3 nations.

Hawaii will get it is Sovereignty back
Alaska will declare independence
Texas - if the are smart will go it alone. The Red States around it will be a drain on its economy
Cali, Oregon, Washington will become a West Coast Nation
New England states will band together
Wisconsin and Michigan might petition to join Canada.
Florida is pretty much on its own

And the central states? There's stuff in between Wisconsin and Michigan you know.